Helpful ReplySonar X3e not saving MIDI Input / channels

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huffy
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2016/07/13 17:02:02 (permalink)

Sonar X3e not saving MIDI Input / channels

OK, this is pretty serious.  I've got a project with literally hundreds of MIDI tracks in it - it's sort of a repository of unrelated MIDI song segments that I keep in one project, lined up in such a way that I can audition how any given segment would sound either before or after any OTHER segment, seamlessly, as if they were written together that way.  Each song segment is comprised of seven MIDI tracks - lead, percussion, drums, bass, guitar, rhodes, and strings - all put into a track folder.  And I've got 100 folders.  Got to 100 by setting the MIDI channels correctly for the first group of seven, and then cloning it 99 times, then putting each group of seven into its own folder.  I then solo (actually, un-archive) only the folders/segments I want to audition together, and have them play my external arranger keyboard.
 
Thing is, I also record new material onto these tracks from the same keyboard, which sends data on separate channels for each instrument.  And that's where the trouble lies.  What I discovered was that after saving the project and shutting down the computer, if I then re-opened the project, none of the track inputs would be set correctly.  They all said "Omni", and then when I clicked on it, said "None".  The tracks had originally been set to, for example, "UA-25EX - CH 14" for the guitar track, "...CH 15" for strings, etc. (the UA-25EX being my audio/MIDI interface, which I never disconnect from the computer).
 
I assumed I must've forgotten to set the MIDI channels before cloning all the tracks, so I re-did the whole thing and made sure everything was set correctly before saving.  Well, just as before, whenever the computer is shut down or restarted, Sonar resets every single one of my 700 tracks back to "Omni".
 
Actually, I should say, the first time this happened, I had two MIDI "IN" devices checked in Preferences - the UA-25EX and "AutomapMIDI", which has to do with my Novation controller.  And Sonar had switched all my MIDI track inputs to "AutomapMIDI" (channel whatever) after my having restarted the computer.  So I decided to uncheck AutomapMIDI, and narrow it down to just one input - the UA-25EX.  But it didn't make any difference, except that Sonar now switches all the tracks to "Omni" / "None" rather than "AutomapMIDI", which means that every track receives MIDI data for ALL instruments played on the keyboard, instead of just the one instrument it was meant to record, which of course is unacceptable.
 
Suggestions?  (btw, I researched it for a couple hours online last night and found a couple previous threads which bemoaned kinda the same problem, but... not exactly.  Sonar X3 online "Documentation" didn't help either.)
 
Thanks.
 
- Bob K
 
 
post edited by huffy - 2016/07/14 00:04:30
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brundlefly
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Re: Sonar X3e not saving MIDI Input / channels 2016/07/13 17:46:58 (permalink)
I was able to reproduce something like this when I opened a Platinum-originated project in X3; the input port assignments were all too high by 2 ports, and tracks that were originally assigned to the last available port ended up assigned to 'Omni - All Inputs'.
 
But when I corrected the assignments and re-saved from X3e, the correct assignments were restored on re-opening in X3 as expected. 
 
One way or another, I think that project must be corrupted, or originated in an earlier/later version that generated a file format that's not working for X3.
 
Try creating a small small test project from the Normal template in X3 (e.g. three ports, 3 channels each). If that works, you might have to re-construct your 'auditioning' project starting from scratch with the Normal template, and copy-pasting content from the old one.

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brundlefly
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Re: Sonar X3e not saving MIDI Input / channels 2016/07/13 18:33:56 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby huffy 2016/07/14 05:26:52
huffy
whenever the computer is shut down or restarted, Sonar resets every single one of my 700 tracks back to "Omni".



So you're okay if you only close/re-open the project with or without restarting SONAR, so long as you don't reboot?
 
In that case, it sounds like SONAR is getting started before your MIDI interface driver is all the way up. If you're starting SONAR as soon as your desktop is up - or, worse, if it's in your start menu's Startup folder - you might need to stop doing that and give your interface driver more time to initialize. You might also need to try putting your interface on a different USB port (preferably something on the motherboard's hub).

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huffy
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Re: Sonar X3e not saving MIDI Input / channels 2016/07/13 23:31:12 (permalink)
Hi Brundlefly.  Hey, good news:  After shutting everything down (Sonar, laptop and keyboard) and taking a well-deserved nap, I got up, restarted, and now everything is set correctly again.  I'm now trying to figure out what exactly caused the "fix".  I had rebooted everything individually before (Sonar, or the keyboard, or the laptop) but maybe not all three.  I was going to try your suggestions, and (in preparation for it) did the following things in the following order:
 
1.  Booted up the laptop,
2.  Turned on the arranger keyboard (making no adjustments whatsoever),
3.  Opened Sonar / my project,
4.  Un-archived the first couple folders (songs) and pushed Play,
5.  Checked the track inputs, and found that they were now ALL CORRECT, each of the 700 tracks set to receive on its own individual instrument channel.  Go figure.  Since last night it had simply refused to do this, no matter what I tried.
 
I do remember this happening on one prior occasion about a month ago, but I'm sure it didn't require a complete shutdown, or even a shutdown of Sonar, IIRC.  At that time, I remember it just fixed itself after I either hit a button on my arranger or chose a different style of auto-accompaniment, or something.  Thing is, I tried doing all those things this time but to no avail.
 
One of the last things I remember doing before shutting down (earlier today) was disconnecting the UA-25EX interface, then re-connecting it (same USB port).  It didn't solve the problem all by itself (the tracks still just said "Omni"), but maybe the combination of doing that and then rebooting everything is what did the trick, not sure.
 
Also, during the time that it was fouled up, I did notice a couple other things which might serve as clues as to what might be going on:
 
Older projects which had always been dependably set to the correct Input channels suddenly had the same problem as my "audition" project.  So, whatever was screwing up, it was not specific to one project.
 
Also, I noticed that when I went into the arranger keyboard's MIDI menu and chose settings like "All Parts" or "Master Keyboard" or "Keyboard & Style", I could successfully get Sonar's Input to change from "Omni" to "None" and back to "Omni".  Of course that didn't help with the individual channels problem, but it shows that Sonar's Input was at least responding to MIDI data from the keyboard.
 
And lastly, the MIDI Output was never affected.  My existing Sonar MIDI songs (in all my projects) would play the keyboard just fine.  The problem was just with the Inputs, trying to record new material.
 
I wonder if there's a simple Sysx message that I could send from the keyboard to Sonar - to sort of reestablish the channels if this ever happens again.  Maybe it would set things right without having to reboot everything.  I'll check that out on the Yamaha PSR forum (it's a Yamaha PSR-S900 keyboard).
 
In the meantime, I'd sure welcome any more thoughts or theories about it.  As for now I'm just happy to have all my projects functioning again.   Thanks for the valuable help already given.
 
- Bob K
 
 
post edited by huffy - 2016/07/14 00:40:39
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brundlefly
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Re: Sonar X3e not saving MIDI Input / channels 2016/07/14 03:26:03 (permalink)
So If I'm understanding correctly, your only MIDI Input is from the USB connection of the keyboard, and the driver only loads if the keyboard is in a certain configuration. In that case, I could definitely understand things getting out of whack if the startup of the DAW and the keyboard and loading of the driver don't happen the same way every time.
 
Glad you got it sorted in any case, and glad to help for what it was worth. 
 
 

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huffy
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Re: Sonar X3e not saving MIDI Input / channels 2016/07/14 04:57:22 (permalink)
brundlefly
So If I'm understanding correctly, your only MIDI Input is from the USB connection of the keyboard, and the driver only loads if the keyboard is in a certain configuration...

 
Well, it's a traditional MIDI cable from the keyboard to the UA-25EX, then USB from that to the laptop.  And the Novation controller is connected via USB directly to the laptop.  Its "AutomapMIDI" is now again among the Input choices in my tracks, but thankfully it's no longer being defaulted to due to problems with the other Input.
 
I'm not sure about how the driver functions really, but I do know my choices of channels were always at least present, even when it was out of whack - I could always manually  reset everything - but it just wouldn't "stick" after saving.
 
Actually, I'm not sure whether to conclude from this that all the correct channel assignments were in fact saved with the project all along (and Sonar was just being hampered by something in the MIDI signal chain), or whether Sonar never does really "save" channel assignments, but rather just reacts to whatever channels are currently loaded in the keyboard's auto-accompaniment style...
 
Ah but wait!  Remember I said I turned on the keyboard tonight and made no adjustments (i.e., chose no accompaniment style), yet Sonar now has all the correct channels assigned for the particular style I was working with at the time of saving.  So I guess Sonar did save everything.  Well, kudos to good ol' Sonar then!
 
And kudos to you for the suggestions and brainstorming.  Appreciate it.
post edited by huffy - 2016/07/14 05:18:34
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