SonicExplorer
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Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
Any of you guys who use Superior Drummer with Sonar happen to know (or can check) if it is normal for the Superior mixer meters to take many seconds to settle down after stopping playback? I just finished building a new DAW and noticed the Superior mixer meters "bounce" their way down to zero over the course of 5 seconds or so (kind of like a bouncing ball effect) after playback stops. This caught my eye because I just finished chasing a strange audio driver/OS issue that now has me wondering if I truly fixed things or rather if the lagging Superior meters are maybe another indicator of issues still lurking...
Thanks, Sonic
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Zargg
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/12 16:09:53
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Hi. Which Audio Interface, Driver mode, SONAR and Windows version? All the best.
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/12 16:29:12
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RME Fireface400, RME WDM/KS Drivers, Sonar 5PE and Windows XP Pro SP3. Fresh DAW build. The way the Superior mixer meters are visually behaving after playback stops is almost like there is a delay/echo tail on them as they "bounce" down to nothing. This is my first install of Superior 2 so I'm wondering if this is simply normal, or rather maybe I still have an audio/driver gremlin going on.....
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Zargg
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/12 16:32:01
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Download and install the latest ASIO drivers from RME. They have superb ASIO drivers. I'm almost certain that this is driver related.
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/12 17:50:33
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I haven't had problems with the RME WDM drivers ever, 10+ years so I suspect that's not the issue. There's a reason I needed to go with the WDM drivers, it evades me at the moment but definitely a good reason. ASIO wouldn't work in the system as I recall, may have prevented something else from working I can't remember rat the moment. For now I'm just wanting to see if anybody else has noticed the Superior Drummer mixer meters behaving the way I describe, or maybe can think of a reason they would act that way - attributed to a configuration setting or something? Sonic
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/12 17:51:02
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Zargg
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/12 20:28:39
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No One makes better ASIO) drivers than RME, IMO. If you choose to remain on WDM/KS, that's your call.
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/13 02:43:26
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Help me understand..... why would I change over to ASIO if WDM have been working fine for so long? What are the advantages or additional features? Or rather is there some drawback/risk to using WDM over ASIO that I'm maybe not aware of?
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KingsMix
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/13 04:15:00
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SonicExplorer Help me understand..... why would I change over to ASIO if WDM have been working fine for so long? What are the advantages or additional features? Or rather is there some drawback/risk to using WDM over ASIO that I'm maybe not aware of?
What will it hurt to try it?
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Leee
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/13 04:22:41
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For me WDM drivers have much higher latency than ASIO. Sometimes when my DAW accidentally switches over to any other driver type, like WDM, I immediately notice latency when I press down on a key. At first I couldn't figure out why. But now I know the first thing to check is the drivers setup. As soon as I switch back to ASIO....no more latency.
Lee Shapirowww.soundclick.com/leeshapiro Welcome BandLab and thank you for giving Cakewalk and Sonar a new lease on life.
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Anderton
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/13 04:25:11
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Are you sure there's no echo or reverb processing? Also, I'm with Kingsmix. WDM/KS has worked for me, but ASIO has always been better so that's what I use. RME has the recipe down for ASIO drivers. Give it a try, it won't break anything and you can always switch back.
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Zargg
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/13 09:00:11
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SonicExplorer Help me understand..... why would I change over to ASIO if WDM have been working fine for so long? What are the advantages or additional features? Or rather is there some drawback/risk to using WDM over ASIO that I'm maybe not aware of?
Most consumer and pro Audio Interfaces makes their own drivers for their products (or outsource it). RME makes their drivers in house, and are rated (by many) as the Benchmark for other to chase. You will end up with lower latency, better stability. They support older devices, and OS back to XP. As mentioned, if it doesn't work, you can always go back. Driver are found here. Sorry if I came across as an arse earlier All the best.
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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DeeringAmps
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/13 10:37:47
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ASIO allows Sonar to automatically compensate for input timing regardless of your latency settings. New takes will always be " in sync". With WDM you have to set the latency manually, it will be different for every latency setting. I suspect you sometimes use two interfaces? That would explain the ASIO drivers not " working" on your system. T
Tom Deering Tascam FW-1884 User Resources Page Firewire "Legacy" Tutorial, Service Manual, Schematic, and Service Bulletins Win10x64 StudioCat Pro Studio Coffee Lake 8086k 32gb RAM RME UFX (Audio) Tascam FW-1884 (Control) in Win 10x64 Pro
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/13 11:10:13
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Yes, I use two interfaces. The RME for primary DAW work and another interface (sometimes on-board) for conventional uses like listening to music, reference checking mixes, system sounds, etc. I pipe that second interface (via cable) back into the primary interface's monitor input so I can essentially have everything still come out of the same speakers and be controlled by the primary interface, but can do so while keeping things separate in terms making sure the actual DAW work is still isolated & stable. I also need to work on W2K at times, so maybe that was another reason I didn't use ASIO. ?? Latency isn't an issue, I can get down into single digit latency with RME's WDM drivers, that's plenty fine for me. And I'm not even using a blazing system - just a 3GHz Intel Dual Core Pentium. Sonic
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bitflipper
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/13 12:36:10
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Why would the interface driver type have anything to do with the meter behavior described in the OP? The only post-playback activity I've ever noticed with SD2 has been a reflection of cymbal tails fading out. I haven't been using SD3 long enough to notice its meters. If this is SD3 you're referring to, it could be some residual noise in the samples. Given their obsession with realism and not caring about sample size with this version, it wouldn't surprise me if some samples are longer than really necessary.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/13 21:15:18
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Agreed Bitflipper, while possible, I highly doubt this problem has anything to do with driver type. Correct, it is Superior 2.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/13 22:48:53
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This is why we use ASIO when at all possible. Listen to what Tom said above , this is important, unless you want all your tracks out of sync. Below is a loopback test to show how different drivers re-record an audio track and how Sonar works with the driver to compensate for latency. Only ASIO will report correctly to Sonar, Other driver modes, including WASAPI usually are out of sync unless you manually adjust the offset. But that said, it probably has nothing to do with your issue, Sorry I can't test it, SD 2 was like 8 years ago for me. I think I'd have to install Sonar 7 or something.. This is why we upgrade..
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/15 05:21:20
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<boom> That was my head exploding. What are you guys talking about with latency alignment issues?? I never heard of that before, never noticed any problems either. <confused> I see what is being said, but it's just not registering to me. I use MIDI tracks to trigger drum samples, and the rest is audio tracks, always recorded one track at a time. So what would be out of sync using WDM? The audio tracks against the drum samples? Would all the audio tracks be out of sync equally? FWIW, I've used some plug-ins that have some serious latency and never noticed those even causing a problem, Sonar obviously knew how to handle things just fine. Anyway, I just spent an hour experimenting with SD2 trying to see if I could figure out anything causing the latent meter readings after playback stops. So far nothing obvious. There are no delay FX anywhere, I just created a simple test project with a tiny kit. Nothing special. Really stumped on this one....
post edited by SonicExplorer - 2017/10/15 07:31:09
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/15 10:32:45
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This is going to drive me insane. I've now confirmed this on two different systems: One XP and one W2K. And using two different patches of Superior 2 on each - (2.20 vs. 2.30). And using two different sound cards with two different driver types. And two different versions of Sonar (on both systems). All that is needed to replicate is open a new project, put the Superior 2 synth in the rack, select a kick drum, and simply hit it. Then watch the meter down below..... Baffled how this can happen, nothing is even feeding Superior 2 but itself in this instance, and no other patching or FX inside Superior 2. So how in the world is the meter taking forever to settle after a strike of the drum?? Anybody able to check this? I'm pretty sure what I'm experiencing is not normal but it would be nice to hear a confirmation or two to be certain.... It just might be normal after all? Sonic
post edited by SonicExplorer - 2017/10/15 13:10:54
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Zargg
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/15 14:37:53
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It works as expected on my laptop, using WASAPI Shared mode.
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/15 16:28:30
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Thanks much Ken. Is that W10 and 64-bit though? While my Superior 2 meters are bouncing their way down toward flat (a good 7 or 8 seconds) I can't hear a thing. Can't imagine what would be causing this....normally if a meter is moving there's some kind of sound. At first I thought maybe something related to LiveSynth Pro and the multi-processor bug, which was a similar weirdness. But nope, not in the picture. Then I thought possibly the MIDI buffers are not adequate. Nope, not that either. No FX, nothing in the way. Tried turning off multi-processor, etc. I just don't get it. Even being able to reproduce it with separate machines & configs..... The basic facts of this overall problem just make no sense at all.... If anybody has any constructive troubleshooting suggestions please share. Preferably ones that don't involve any installing/uninstalling components as I don't want to risk destabilizing the system. Thanks again to the forum for all the help so far. Sonic
post edited by SonicExplorer - 2017/10/15 18:00:30
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Zargg
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/15 17:58:20
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SonicExplorer Thanks much Ken. Is that W10 and 64-bit though? Sonic
It is. Both my systems are. Sorry to be of no more help.
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/15 19:11:56
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Something just occurred to me.....given the way the meters are behaving could this be a MIDI feedback loop of some sort? One that just isn't generating any sound after the first hit but is registering inside Superior 2? What kind of tests or settings would someone look into for troubleshooting that sort of thing.....? Sonic
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/16 09:11:39
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Or .... is there anything that could be causing a MIDI echo ?? (is there even such an effect) ? The common denominator here is these are fresh DAW installs. So in theory there could be some default setting someplace in Sonar or Drums Superior, or elsewhere that is causing this problem. I'm just not enough of a MIDI expert to really know under what circumstances MIDI processing might be at fault, or rather whether this is an audio issue post-MIDI processing within Superior. Sonic
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/16 11:51:05
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I FINALLY FOUND THE FRIGGIN' PROBLEM !!! I don't fully understand it all yet, but by lowering the Sonar Buffer Size slider (under Audio\General) from 100ms more toward 0 (say 50ms or less) the problems goes away. And realize, it does this same thing with two different driver modes and two different sound cards on two different versions of Sonar on two different versions of the OS. So I'm left still wondering WHAT THE FRIG THIS IS ALL ABOUT? Again, Superior 2 is what is new in the picture to my DAW, and there isn't an audible sound issue per-se, rather it's just the Superior meters. I even tested increasing the Sonar Buffer Size slider over toward 200ms and the Superior meter just froze up in max position, had to hit mute on the kick pad to get it to let go.
Anyways, the normal "default" Sonar installation setting on my systems have always been 2 buffers with Buffer Size slider about 98ms. But THAT is clearly a problem in this scenario WRT Superior meter behavior. I'll keep tinkering with this further after I get some sleep, but in the interim feel free to chime in with any thoughts or ideas to check/test. In fact, I'd be interested to see what happens if somebody else who has Sonar and Superior 2 raised their Buffer Size slider to 100ms+ and see if they too get this behavior. Sonic
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amiller
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/16 12:58:31
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I can't speak to SD2, however, I can say something about SD3. I forget where I saw it or what the switch is but SD3 has a new switch that stops all sounds from SD3 when you stop playback (overhead and ambience...natural room sounds). My guest is that this has been an issue in the past and now SD3 has addressed the issue with a configurable parameter. Check the web ... you should easily be able to find the new setting. If you're staying with SD2 I'm not sure it has such a setting, however, at least it will answer your question...maybe? EDIT: I found the setting in SD3...it's under "General Settings" "Host Stops: Checking this option will stop all MIDI playback in Superior Drummer 3 when the host stops. This only apples to Superior Drummer 3 when it is launched as a plugin in your host DAW therefore, it is not available in the Superior 3 stand alone application."
post edited by amiller - 2017/10/16 13:54:23
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57Gregy
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/16 14:46:31
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"While my Superior 2 meters are bouncing their way down toward flat (a good 7 or 8 seconds) I can't hear a thing." Could be ultra- or subsonic frequencies that can't be heard, but still registering. Insert a spectrum analyzer (like SPAN) to see what those frequencies may be. But, since you didn't have that problem (and if you can't hear it, is it really a problem?) after reducing the buffer size, that may not be the cause of the bouncing meters. Unless some computational compensation is being done with the reduced buffer size which removes those frequencies.
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Grem
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/16 15:05:16
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Shot in the dark here:
Do you have the 64 bit double precision checked?
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/16 22:05:07
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Actually I do have the 64-bit engine checked but as part of the troubleshooting process earlier on I tried unchecking it, and it didn't make a difference. I will go back and experiment again though to see if there is any indicator it could be a contributing factor now that I know the buffer size slider is involved. If there is any new insight involving the 64-bit engine I'll report back. Not sure if this may be another clue or not, but Sonar's default MIDI settings on my prior DAW installs have always landed at 500 (I forget what spec that is....number of buffers or whatever). But on these machines I had to raise it to 600 to function correctly. So that's just another clue there is a bit of weirdness going on with these installs. Maybe I just got lucky until now, who knows. These new machines have Intel DG41 motherboards and dual cores. Sonic
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Cactus Music
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Re: Sonar and Superior Drummer Meters
2017/10/16 22:39:09
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What Tom and I were mentioning about using other driver modes is important. You might not "hear" your audio tracks being out of sync but unless you don't mind sloppy mixes you might want to test for offset timing issues. You obviously ARE dealing with latency as you mentioned the changes when you lower your buffers. To perform a loopback test: Have a midi kick or snare drum track with a strong velocity Use SD2 and freeze it to create a audio track. It should have nice big transients that will line up perfectly with the midi notes if you zoom in. Now loop this back to a new audio track by patching your audio interfaces output back to an input. Make sure input echo is OFF. Record the new track and zoom in to see how the transients line up with the original. You can clearly see in my screenshot how ASIO is perfectly aligned and the other modes are late. I did this loopback test with 4 different computers and using 3 different ASIO audio interfaces as well as a few none ASIO interfaces. The results are always about the same. Interestingly ASIO4all will be perfectly in sync when using an on board sound card. My conclusion ( and many others too) is only ASIO should be used for overdubbing audio tracks. The workaround is you can manually adjust the timing offset but what a PITA that is. And your issue could very well be a combination of things due to outdated VST GUI or a slow video processor.
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