Sonar issues with MP4 video files - Please help!! 2016

I am a film composer too and have always just used AVI files because sonar seemed to like them better
I kept hoping that sonar would get better using QuickTime and mp4 files as time went by and we got new updates

Yes, AVIs always work great. But I have no time to convert the many hours of files i'm workin on. I need to "load and go" so to speak. They are also much larger in file size. MP$s do work now if you have LAV codecs etc. but this little sync issue persists. 
 
True that QuickTime 64 bit for windows isn't out, that made me think for a sec.. but... I don't have the issue inside ProTools (I have to deliver some shows in protools) or Sony Vegas when using MP4 or QT. It's got something to do with Sonar somehow.   
 
If anyone has an mp4 kicking around and wants to try loading it up in sonar, export a bit of the audio (BCW for ease) and reopen that audio with the original video in another DAW or Vegas etc. I'd be interested to see if anyone else notices the same problem. (The audio you export will be a little later when compared to the original MP4s audio inside another program. 
Thanks

In my recent experience, Sonar Plat likes .wmv files best.

I use Sonar as a DAW not a video editor, it doesn't do anything with video except play it. Even if you try to change the start time of the video it will likely crash.  
 
A great portion of DAW users are working with video, whether they are TV/film/game composers/sound designers or just people making youtube videos. Sonar should really take the time to ensure they are not behind the other DAWs when it comes to video and other basic functions. They clearly are. I think Sonar would only acquire more customers if they worked on these issues.
 
I think many Composers/sound designers pass on Sonar because of limited integration of professional and proper:
- Video 
- Score editor (not to change topic but the score editor is practically useless and getting worse)
- Midi functions that are important in film music: better control over tempo mapping, changing tempo without affecting midi etc. just to name a couple.
- Recording latency while using plugins  
 
Too much effort is being put into adding native plugins and soft synths that don't compete with third party ones that most professionals use anyways. They really need to get the basics working first. How hard can it be to look at these issues? This isn't someone ranting about the colors of the audio clips or nitpicking about small UI design features, these are things that separate Sonar from industry standard DAWs. Look at how many 3rd party utilities like UAD won't even add Sonar to their list of compatible programs, even though it is compatible.    
 
SONAR ROCKS, NOT PUTTING DOWN SONAR! But seriously, don't negate your pro users! Heck, make it work, charge more for it! (okay, I didn't say that...)      
   
 
  

Anderton
I import the video from Vegas, create the score to it in SONAR, then export only the audio and import it into Vegas, where there are all the export options I would ever need.
 

Craig, yes, that is exactly what I do as well!
However, the music you create in Sonar will be slightly out of sync when you bring it back in to Vegas (or any other program) to marry it back to the video file. (If the video file is an MP4 or QT file) It's hard to tell unless you do certain tests as it's only out by a frame or so. As you know, even if it were only off by a "sample" you would get phasing/flanging problems if any duplicate audio were playing simultaneously.  
 
My test: I will open an MP4 in sonar, export a bit of the dialogue out as a broadcast wave. Then import it into vegas against the same video file to check it. It will be out of sync with the original dialogue.
 
Currently, I have to slide my score audio in Sonar (70 ticks earlier) before creating a broadcast wave if I want it to sync up. (It will still be out by half a tick, but I can't get a smaller slide resolution in Sonar) *This amount differs between different versions of Sonar (X1,X2,X3,Plat) just slightly.
 
The sync difference is consistent throughout the session as if there is a small amount of "padding" before the mp4 starts in Sonar. Even audio that is at the very beginning of the file will have the same offset as audio from the end of the file.
Again, this does not happen when using uncompressed video files such as AVI. I have found issues with WMV as well.
Bottom line is: everyone uses MP4, QT etc. these days and normally comes from the Mac world.
Thanks     
 

Okay...it just got weirder. Try this test, and let me know what you find.
 
1. Create a project in Vegas (I used Vegas 12).
2. Render it as an MP4; leave the project open.
3. Bring the MP4 into that project.
4. Compare the start time of the audio in the rendered video compared to where the audio starts in the project itself. 
 
When I did this, they did not line up; the audio in the MP4 was later. So even when using Vegas to render a file, then bringing that file directly back into Vegas, there was a timing issue with the audio.
 
If I rendered only the audio in Vegas as WAV or FLAC, then brought it back into Vegas and compared it to the audio in the project, they lined up perfectly. If I rendered only the audio as MP3, then brought it back into Vegas and compared to the audio in the project, it was late (later than the MP4 audio). When I brought the MP4 into SONAR, rendered only the audio, and compared it to the original audio in the project is was also late (somewhat more than the MP3).
 
So it seems any rendering to a lossy format, no matter how minimal, affects timing whereas rendering into a lossless format does not. This only partially explains why bringing in SONAR's audio is later than the MP3, but I suspect that if there's an issue that occurs while encoding (e.g., as happened with the MP3) there more be even more of an issue if encoding and decoding (e.g., as happened with SONAR's audio). This may explain dannyjmusic's comment about SONAR liking AVIs better; apparently Vegas likes uncompressed formats better too, and would also explain the various threads about desync issues with compressed formats like MP4.
 
One more tidbit: It seems the offset occurs when importing into SONAR, not exporting. So in addition to the time added at the beginning of the audio due to exporting from Vegas, there's additional time added due to importing into SONAR. This tends to support my suspicion that issues happen during both encoding and decoding. If I render the audio from the MP4 imported into SONAR then bring it back in to SONAR, it lines up perfectly with the imported MP4 audio.
 
 
 
 

I'm using Windows 10...but even if the import issue in SONAR is fixed, that won't fix the export problem in Vegas that adds silence to the beginning of the rendered audio.

I have no trouble running MP4s in Sonar Platinum. It will as long as one has the right codec to run it. If you install K-Lite mega codec pack Sonar will run any video format that K-Lite supports.
 
 

I should also note that if I have an MP4 with a burned-in visual time code on it, and it's first frame visually indicates a time code of, let's say 01:00:00:00, when imported to Sonar, the first frame of video I see has a visual time code of 01:00:00:01. So I can see why any exported audio will be late when synced back up to the original mp4 in vegas. 
 
What is Sonar doing with that first frame from the MP4? (and it's not the length of a frame it's a frame and 3 ticks...)
In Vegas and Protools, the first frame I see on the visual code is 01:00:00:00 as it should be.     

How late is your mp4 to mp4 test in vegas? Mine was barely a quarter frame.
 

Sorry, not sure what your posting that info for. I know how to sync up two things. It's Sonar that doesn't! LOL

Thank you Noel!! File share link below and a description of the contents:
 
Here is a link to the various test files in a zipped folder:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/483200/sonarsynctest.zip 
 
Included:
1. Short MP4 file
2. Screen shot of Sonar's clock vs burn-in time code clock not lining up
3. Wave file of audio exported out of sonar (from the mp4s audio track)
4. New MP4 rendered in Sony Vegas 12 with both the original audio and the sonar exported audio (I panned it to the opposite side, is out of sync)
5. Screen shot of the two audio files in vegas (out of sync)
6. Platinum bundle file of the session with the mp4
 
Comments:
First off, thank you Noel for having a look at this, I know you get many issues brought to your attention.
 
- The issue does not show itself within Sonar, the issue is the audio (score in this case) exported from Sonar and brought back into other programs like: (Sony Vegas 12 or ProTools 10 HD) I've also tested with Cubase 7.
You would need a second program to test out this issue as files exported out and then back in to Sonar sync up fine.
 
When a composer scores in Sonar, obviously his or her output needs to sync back up to the sessions in the film production house. They are generally on Pro Tools as you know. The wave files exported from a Sonar session containing an MP4 or QuickTime file (I'm assuming any compressed video file) will have some sort of padding at the top so that the exported audio plays late in relation to the audio in the original MP4s timeline. I'm using dialogue from the original MP4 to test this out. I believe the encoding on this MP4 was originally H.264. I have made my own MP4 for this test just to make the file shorter but I get the same result as on the original MP4.
 
The basic test I do is this: 
- Import MP4 into sonar, set the sample rate 48 KHz, bit depth 24, frame rate 23.97 and clock offset 00:59:52:00
- Export part or all of the audio out as a wave file or better, a Broadcast wave file
- Open the same MP4 in Vegas, Pro tools or any other pro program that handles video and audio
- Import the audio that was exported from Sonar into the other program.
- The audio will be out of sync with the original. (late by 3/4 frame up to 1.5 frames depending on the Sonar version)
- * Go through the bundle's time-line a bit and you'll notice the visual code and sonar's code are off, not consistently either. This is not the same in PT or Vegas, every frame lines up.
 
* If I do these tests between the other programs (not sonar) I get sample accurate sync as I should. I think this rules out Windows, the newer MS media platform, or any other third party technology. If it works in the other programs, why not Sonar? Something is odd about the way sonar imports these compressed video files into it's video container. There is no drift and the sync issue occurs right from the start of the file and is consistent to the end of the file.
Even if I get Sonar's clock to line up with the visual code on the MP4, any exported audio will have that padding and be out of sync when I re-sync it in another program. I should also mention that I've tested this with MP4s that have different frame rates, sample rates etc. and/or no clock offset, same issue. Everyone in the business is using mp4 and QuickTime during production these days so this would be a worth while improvement. This message is too long now, if you have any other questions please let me know. Thanks again!
JG 

Apparently:
"Adjusting a video clip’s start time is currently only supported when using the DirectShow video engine, not when using the Media Foundation video engine" *Thanks for the feature... that doesn't work! lol
 
I've tried simply altering the smpte clock offset to compensate among other things. I have workarounds but even with the tick resolution, it's not quite small enough to get the locked up tight. The other programs I test are SAMPLE accurate, so you can literally play two identical wave files at once and not have any phase or flange issues, it just sounds like one file playing. Sonar should be sample accurate, it is on all other levels, I think it's just something having to do with compressed video files. (currently I slide the audio 70 ticks earlier before exporting to get the closest sync possible)
 
Thanks 

Yes, by hand you can get in right to the sample if you zoom in and slide the file, no snap. I deal with too many clips in my score so I need a way to do it globally and consistently. So I use the slide feature set to ticks. It's pretty close. I shouldn't have to which is the things that bugs me...   
 
Not sure if it's a MF video engine thing either, I'm testing with other programs like protools and vegas without a problem. It's most likely sonar related