Sonar on Mac OS X?

Page: < 1234 Showing page 4 of 4
Author
D.Triny
Max Output Level: -73 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 870
  • Joined: 2003/11/04 10:24:39
  • Status: offline
RE: Sonar on Mac OS X? 2007/08/03 11:22:23 (permalink)

post edited by D.Triny - 2007/09/08 10:02:37


-------------
David Abraham 
My Awesome Movie

#91
droddey
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5147
  • Joined: 2007/02/09 03:44:49
  • Location: Mountain View, CA
  • Status: offline
RE: Sonar on Mac OS X? 2007/08/03 12:54:22 (permalink)
gag more personal B.S. so Mr. Gasse said something stupid, so has Mr. Allchin, Mr. Gates - practically any human on this planet.


If it were an isolated example, that might be relevant, but it's not. It was fairly indicative of the attitude of Apple's management towards the software development community. I'm giving you facts and you are trying to just dismiss me as a loony toon or something. The issues between Apple and its developer is well documented, whether you choose to believe it or not, and it cost them significantly. And, in the meantime, MS was making it much easier for developers, even before their market share made the point moot.

Holy art thou, eh?


Not at all. I'm just pointing out that my statements about the subject of Apple and its problems are founded on a study of the subject, while yours are more like personal attacks on me. If that's being holier than, then I guess I'm holier than. But, to me, it's just more informed than.


duh, keep it context. This is about MUSIC SOFTWARE!!!!!! get that through your noggin if you can.


Mostly it's about that. But the music software business doesn't exist in a vacuum outside of everything else going on. I was speaking to general issues that Apple has had with its developer community in that past and how that cost them. That's a legitimate issue to discuss in the context of whether Apple will succeed in maintaining any lead it might have in this particular slice of the software pie. Market share also causes issues with driver support for hardware and the various peripheral bits of software that exist in the thousands in the Windows world because event a small part of that large market is sufficient to sustain a small to medium sized development company.


...I should 'a known...an OS worshiper.


So first I'm a Bill Gates bootlicker, now I'm an OS/2 worshiper. I liked OS/2, but I've not touched anything to do with it in almost a decade. I was just pointing out that I've been on the losing end of Windows as well as the winning end. So I know the situation, as a software engineer not just a user, from both perspectives.
post edited by droddey - 2007/08/03 13:07:50

Dean Roddey
Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
www.charmedquark.com
#92
D.Triny
Max Output Level: -73 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 870
  • Joined: 2003/11/04 10:24:39
  • Status: offline
RE: Sonar on Mac OS X? 2007/08/03 15:32:24 (permalink)

post edited by D.Triny - 2007/09/08 10:02:56


-------------
David Abraham 
My Awesome Movie

#93
DSandberg
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 87
  • Joined: 2003/11/18 19:29:46
  • Status: offline
RE: Sonar on Mac OS X? 2007/08/04 20:33:25 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: droddey
Everyone has their personal likes and dislikes, but I think that Vista will probably end up being very successful for MS. I've not moved to it myself yet, though I have it on a test machine for verifying that our product works on it. It's always best to hold the development machines back a bit else it's too easy to start using stuff that doesn't translate backwards very well. But once Vista gets a bit more mainstream I'll move in that direction for my development machines as well.

What exactly do you find odious about Vista?


UAC, the licensing, and 64-bit as a separate world are the big turn-offs for me (we have Vista on one machine at my office as well). But more generally, it feels like a step backwards for Windows ... a shallow attempt to mimic some of the glossier features of OS X, at the expense of the main thing that WinXP had going for it in comparison (which was being a relatively lean and efficient OS that leaves most of the CPU's power for use by apps). I know I'll have to do some development for Vista eventually, but as far as my personal computer systems are concerned, I am highly unmotivated to pay a premium price for something that is likely to only do harm to how I expect my existing Windows programs to run.

Whereas the forthcoming OS X 10.5 (Leopard) will be one very reasonable price, with everything included, with security that actually works without handcuffing the user (unlike UAC), and with 64-bit and 32-bit applications living together in complete harmony in the same OS environment. And the development tools are free ... and Xcode 3 sounds like it should be an impressive step forward. Now THAT is an OS upgrade that I'm looking forward to (not that I'm feeling at all constrained by Tiger).

Oooo, the concept of Sonar running on Leopard ...yum. :)

David
#94
droddey
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5147
  • Joined: 2007/02/09 03:44:49
  • Location: Mountain View, CA
  • Status: offline
RE: Sonar on Mac OS X? 2007/08/04 23:39:39 (permalink)
I wouldn't be so confident in the security. If the Mac ever gets to the point where Windows is, and becomes the primary target of hackers, you may get a rude suprise. Hackers follow the same market share principle that developers do. If you are going to hack, get the most for your money, and therefore they go after Windows very heavily. That's unfortunately on the one hand, but on the other hand it does force Windows to continue to be very aware of these issues.

As to XP being very lean, it is, and you can strip it down considerably more if you want. But it wasn't seen that way when it first appeared either, as I remember. Vista, being the next step, will tend to move back in that direction of pushing the limits a bit. But by the time the next major release comes out, we'll probably be talking about how Vista is a fairly light OS and whatever that new one is is too piggy.

There's not really much difference on the development front for Vista. I at first thought it was going to require all these changes, but it didn't. Our system is large and does a lot of things, both in service based background servers that are accessing all kinds of stuff and with multiple front end apps, networked clients, lots of media stuff and so on. But, in the end, about the only real change was just to mark the installer as requiring admin privs, and most of the apps we marked as well since they are only for admins of our system. Otherwise, our product is pretty much unchanged for Vista. There is no conditional code in it for Vista or anything like that.

Dean Roddey
Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
www.charmedquark.com
#95
D.Triny
Max Output Level: -73 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 870
  • Joined: 2003/11/04 10:24:39
  • Status: offline
RE: Sonar on Mac OS X? 2007/08/04 23:54:09 (permalink)
If the Mac ever gets to the point where Windows is


that's the beauty of the situation, it will never get to that point.


-------------
David Abraham 
My Awesome Movie

#96
DSandberg
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 87
  • Joined: 2003/11/18 19:29:46
  • Status: offline
RE: Sonar on Mac OS X? 2007/08/05 08:37:19 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: droddey
I wouldn't be so confident in the security. If the Mac ever gets to the point where Windows is, and becomes the primary target of hackers, you may get a rude suprise. Hackers follow the same market share principle that developers do.


It's possible - no one can say that for sure unless/until it actually happens. Right now, in the most practical sense, OS X is far more secure. I also draw some confidence from the fact that OS X is built on top of Unix, which for a long time was the primary (if not the only) OS on the Internet, and was hence being attacked on a regular basis. Security holes were being plugged in Unix long before Windows was even on the scene. Unix was also designed as a multi-user platform from the outset, and hence manages accounts and permissions in a much better integrated fashion than in Windows, where such issues were a very late afterthought at best.

There's not really much difference on the development front for Vista. I at first thought it was going to require all these changes, but it didn't. Our system is large and does a lot of things, both in service based background servers that are accessing all kinds of stuff and with multiple front end apps, networked clients, lots of media stuff and so on. But, in the end, about the only real change was just to mark the installer as requiring admin privs, and most of the apps we marked as well since they are only for admins of our system. Otherwise, our product is pretty much unchanged for Vista. There is no conditional code in it for Vista or anything like that.


One observation: wouldn't that in some degree be due to the fact that your apps rely so little upon services from the underlying OS? As I recall, you were trumpeting the advantages of that atypical scenario about a page back.

One of my concerns about developing for Vista is the growing ascendancy of .NET. My experiences with .NET thus far haven't exactly endeared it to me, at least not in the venue of performance-critical, shrink-wrapped applications. (For service-oriented development companies it may be a different story, but that's not my primary interest.)
post edited by DSandberg - 2007/08/05 08:44:23

David
#97
keith
Max Output Level: -36.5 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 3882
  • Joined: 2003/12/10 09:49:35
  • Status: offline
RE: Sonar on Mac OS X? 2007/08/05 11:51:04 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: DSandberg
ORIGINAL: droddey
I wouldn't be so confident in the security. If the Mac ever gets to the point where Windows is, and becomes the primary target of hackers, you may get a rude suprise. Hackers follow the same market share principle that developers do.


It's possible - no one can say that for sure unless/until it actually happens. Right now, in the most practical sense, OS X is far more secure. I also draw some confidence from the fact that OS X is built on top of Unix, which for a long time was the primary (if not the only) OS on the Internet, and was hence being attacked on a regular basis. Security holes were being plugged in Unix long before Windows was even on the scene. Unix was also designed as a multi-user platform from the outset, and hence manages accounts and permissions in a much better integrated fashion than in Windows, where such issues were a very late afterthought at best.


Yes, that's kinda true... unfortunately, somebody forgot to tell the apple engineers: http://www.zdnet.com.au/news/security/soa/Ancient_flaws_leave_OS_X_vulnerable_/0,2000061744,39234678,00.htm

One of the great fallacies of computer/network security... "my stuff is safe because nobody knows about it." A.K.A, security through obscurity.
#98
droddey
Max Output Level: -24 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 5147
  • Joined: 2007/02/09 03:44:49
  • Location: Mountain View, CA
  • Status: offline
RE: Sonar on Mac OS X? 2007/08/05 12:41:17 (permalink)
Unix was also designed as a multi-user platform from the outset, and hence manages accounts and permissions in a much better integrated fashion than in Windows, where such issues were a very late afterthought at best.


Well, that latter assertion is definitely not true. Prior to NT that was the case, but not afterwards. NT was designed by a guy named Carver if memory served, who was a key architect of the DEC VAX operating system, not exactly a light weight OS, and if anything the problem with its security system is that it's so extensive that no ever bothers to learn it. I've not.

Also, the thing about Unix being a serious backend system on the net doesn't really help. You can set up XP/Server very effectively as a stripped down back end machine that is very safe. The problem is social engineering. That's now much of the hackers get the unsuspecting non-technical users. You don't have to break through their defenses, just con them into doing it for you. Send them bogus e-mails that get them to click on links and download trojans and whatnot. That's way easier than trying to get through a router that accepts no incoming connections. No one sits around and plays games, or surfs the web, or downloads porn from a back end server.

This is the reason that Vista is the way it is. It's trying to help protect non-technical users from that kind of thing. People would always run in a high rights account because it was a pain to switch to another one any time you need to install something or do something that would require admin privs, so any time you were tricked into running something malicious, it could do all kinds of damage. So they just got rid of that distinction and allow you have a single account that won't allow anything malicious unless you explicitly give it permission to do so.

One observation: wouldn't that in some degree be due to the fact that your apps rely so little upon services from the underlying OS? As I recall, you were trumpeting the advantages of that atypical scenario about a page back.


True, we would likely be better off on that front than most.

One of my concerns about developing for Vista is the growing ascendancy of .NET. My experiences with .NET thus far haven't exactly endeared it to me, at least not in the venue of performance-critical, shrink-wrapped applications. (For service-oriented development companies it may be a different story, but that's not my primary interest.)


I certainly agree there. But, with large businesses having C, C++, etc... apps out there, they won't be able to toss the existing system API for basically forever. I think that .NET has it's place on the periphery, on small devices. But that's about as far as I'd want to use it.

post edited by droddey - 2007/08/05 12:54:36

Dean Roddey
Chairman/CTO, Charmed Quark Systems
www.charmedquark.com
#99
RTGraham
Max Output Level: -57 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 1824
  • Joined: 2004/03/29 20:17:13
  • Location: New York
  • Status: offline
RE: Sonar on Mac OS X? 2007/08/09 01:21:29 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: eikelbijter

Bottom line is, I'm a musician first. I've been producing for 6 years or so and I've recorded in a lot of different places, but I care about the actual music first and whether it is represented properly on a recording. When people spend $3000 on A/D converters and then skimp on the actual musicians they are recording, I think they're on the wrong track......


Well stated.

~~~~~~~~~~
Russell T. Graham
Keys, Vocals, Songwriting, Production
russell DOT graham AT rtgproductions DOT com
www DOT myspace DOT com SLASH russelltgraham
Page: < 1234 Showing page 4 of 4
Jump to:
© 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1