Songwriting -perspectives ?

I remember reading about songwriting many years ago and the writer suggested that at any given time there is a "formula" for writing a commercial song.
My guitar instructor mentioned at any given time there are certain chords that are prefered in songwriting. Maj7th's opposed to Maj 6th's for example.

I started trying to write the music for songs a couple of years ago and have followed no rules. I simply try to get the sound and feel. I don't even think about measures.

I don't read about songwriting nor have tried to get up on current music but maybe I should....

Enough about my outlook...I'm sure interested in any thoughts of others about writing the music. Lyric writing is of no interest to me at this time.

Oh..quirks are interesting too.For instance, I can't listen to music while I'm trying to write. I have to stop listening for a few days before I start, and usually start with a drum groove and guitar, looking for feel and "hook".

Thanks up front for sharing any thoughts about this.
Michael

I dont know about other forms of music, but I once read that a great country and western song needed to have five ingredients
trains
momma
pickup trucks
prison
getting drunk.

I heard a song once that had all of those elements and it was the perfect country and western song.

I'm not a songwriter yet (according to John Lennon).

I've only written 37 songs and 11 ideas. Oh I just realized I'm not even half a songwriter yet.

JL said you're not a songwriter until you've written 100 songs.

Hmmm, good question.

I guess my approach depends on the style of music Im writing.

Generally with me there are two approaches.

1. - Write a chord progression then a melody
2. - Write a melody and then fit some chords underneath it

Obviously this is very simplified.

Sometime, if im struggling to write (most of my stuff is instrumental) Ill pop on a DVD about Space or the Deep Ocean, or just look at some pictures on the stuff, very inspiring stuff to look at/think about.

I usually try to write a definite verse/chorus/verse/chorus structure, with a bridge thrown in there if that doesn't make the song too long, even though 99% of my songs have no lyrics. And I suppose I use extremely typical chord progressions, simply because I'm still learning more about non-basic chords. Many of my songs start with a measure that I've heard from another song and I just build it from there. Or I sit and doodle at the piano and try to get inspiration. I once tried starting on all black keys and a pretty cool song came out that I don't think I would have gotten from the white keys, although that's strange. And the other half come from when I'm thinking about something--anything, and sing a phrase about it. Then I write the rest of the 'song' to finish that idea, although generally no more lyrics get written. Not sure if that's what you were after, but that's how I approach it.

Space I've heard that tune too..the day my mom got out of prison.

Rick I think the dental ins. is all I have going for me..well that's how I feel anyway. "The critical part..." You really hit home with that statement. I have to get in somewhat of a lost state of mind and just jam waiting for the part...very interesting part of the writing process to me.

Bapu I'm no singer nor song writer. I too lean to the "guitar keys".

Adji you make a very good point. When I sit down to write I try to find a groove and mindlessly play to it hoping a style will surface. The style does impact my choice of key and types of chords. The progression is "freeform" for me until I start hearing a melody. When I think it may have the makings of a song it's then that I try to gain song structure.
Then I'm wondering about the chord construction - sounds that may be preferred, substitutions, modulations, voicing. This is one of the areas that was behind my post.

Janet I seem to start with basic chords too, for the most part and depending on style. In reply to your statement, I'm not after anything, just looking at the aspect of writing and how it works for others and their "thoughts" about writing. And any "rituals" or quirks that may seem to help them wether or not it does.

Cool all...thanks for replies.

I haven't really given you anything to chew on here so i'll make more noise....

What almost always facilitates new ideas is playing with new toys like synths or different sounding pianos or guitar effects that will make something that normally i would not follow through on.
It's also fun just getting melodies from humming or singing in the car...no chords, no toys, no anything but a simple melody. If i can not make a melody keep my attention i can be fairly sure it won't keep yours either.

songwriting.... Yeah there's rules that should be followed...and there's rules that should be broken....the problem is.....nobody knows which is which.... it can change from one song to the next. So basically follow the rules...but screw the rules when necessary.

I recommend getting a good book or two on the subject. I like Jason Blume's 6 steps to songwriting success. It has many good tips and ideas in there for writing and improving your writing.

Try switching the instrument you write with....assuming you play more than one. Songwriting on a piano is different from writing on a guitar. Write the words first...write the music first...do it together.... each method introduces a different aspect to the writing/creative process.

Carry some sort of recorder with you even if it's a notepad.

One of Jason's ideas...set down each day and simply write....anything and everything that comes into your head. Don't be critical, don't analize, don't think, and don't erase. Do it every day for 30 minutes a day. Then after a week or so start taking time to work on some of..begin to compile it into coherent thoughts..... attempt to write one ONE line of music per day...but take the time to make it right. Since the average song has 3 verses and 1 chorus and usually a 2 line bridge.... allowing 4 lines per verse/chorus... 18 lines of lyric make the average song....some less...some more.... you should soon be writing ONE good song per month. It is totally possible to set down and write a billboard #1 hit in one setting.... not often, but it does happen occasionally...... most require lots of work....and rewrites. Most of the tunes you hear on the radio have been rewritten many times before they finally were polished to the point that they were accepted and recorded.

My goal in songwriting is to write as many as I can.....but more importantly.... I'd rather write ONE good song than 20 ok songs. OK songs are fine for friends, family and posting on soundclick, but if your goal is to accomplish something, like have a big name artist record it...OK isn't the goal.

One tip...don't write poetry...write lyrics.

Lately what I find works best for me, is I wake up hearing melodies.

Unfortunately, it's mostly just before I keel over that my mind loosens up and produces beauties unasked for, and I have to force myself to stay awake and write them down.

Let's swap that, your methods sounds way more relaxed.

As to using overheard phrases, I read that Faith No More singer at the time of Angel Dust just parked his car outside a mall, rolled open the window and wrote down interesting phrases he overheard, and mashed those up into semi-coherence.

Great words everybody!

A wonderful thing reading your thoughts.

Rules is a biggy....I believe everyone is right on how they deal with that aspect. Maybe if nothing else, "rules" lead to either something or one breaks them. A tool that may be of benefit and may not. The definition of "rules" in music? What the heck are they? I guess my way of looking at the word - I see "common approach". For example a dominate 7th wants to resolve to the 1/root but we all know it doesn't have to. Same as "common progressions and turnarounds"- I IV V and II V ....common approach but other ways to do the same thing..other chords to use...maybe "tricks" one uses to break away from the norm. The knowledge of theory could come into play or searching for the right sound by ear..either way it may be an approach that one finds success with and is part of ones song writing tools.
In the same lines of "rules" -one may look at chords differently. We probably follow the same theoritical approach to constructing a chord and maybe placing one in a key and at that we may have completed the "common approach". What happens next is possibly what I referred to earlier as leading to something else...
That "something else" may be modal placement of a chord or very simple thinking of the chord for the sake of simplicity to jam or play over it. For example; I like to look at chords as three basic types; Major, Minor or 7th. Everything else is just a "color" added, to me. All the "alterations", colors.

The order in which we write- I'm sure there are many more than we've talked about so far and I would think there is no wrong or right way...just whatever works.
It does bring up some questions though....Do you write the same way everytime? It was mentioned by Rick that using different instruments can spark ideas, (I have done that and it was fun too).
Do you have a quirk such as the one I have where I can't listen to music for a few days? ( but not all the time. Sometimes a song just happens)
Do you write lyrics first?
Do you write the melody line first?
Do you collaborate and you and your partner have a particular writing method?
I wouldn't consider any of those as "rules" but ones common approach.
"Rules" or templates for commercial music at any given time is interesting to me even though I know very little about the concept. I know it's real. There are certain chord types that are in favor for a particular style at any given time. Alternate tunings was a very big thing for Seatle grunge for example. Metal leans to power chords ( the root and fifth).
The use of the template- again not a rule but maybe a common approach to get the ball rolling. The Beatles played box chords.
So the thought of popular voicings may be of use or a common approach and lead one to the addition of "colors" later on in the composition.

I'm out of wind and stretching my typing capability...hope it's ledgeable.

ORIGINAL: rsp@odyssey.net

Lately what I find works best for me, is I wake up hearing melodies. Its the wierdest thing. About a year ago, I started going straight into my music room and grabbing my acoustic and figuring out the chords to these, and writing them down. Then I started singing or humming these melodies into a handheld recorder and working on it later. These little ideas usually consist of verses or choruses and sometimes both.

As for lyrics, I get ideas from things I hear in movies, or books, or the news, or overheard conversations. Usually its one phrase. I've got a song that should be ready to post next week. The first line in the song, is something I heard an expert of financial matters say on a news show. It turned into a song completely different from the context of what the person was talking about.

Randy

I'm with Randy here! Sometimes actually dream I'm playing with people and the song is pretty detailed. Now that my studio is perpetually set up, I can get up and lay down what I can remember and then go back to sleep. I can't fall back asleep unless I do. Then I'll go through stuff when I'm looking for material and start listening to the snippets. I think it's important to record melodies as they come, and even if you sit on them for months, they're at least there.

Lyrics come a lot from books, sometimes from general ideas or phrases I hear. Sometimes I'll hear a story on TV (when and If I ever watch), or from somebody I talk to. sometimes the music spawns a series of vocalizations that I then figure out the words to.

There's no rhyme or reason, but I think it's just important that when the muse comes, you give it the respect and time it deserves and at least find a way to harnass what comes, even if it seems insignificant at the time.

I had a song that turned into a 6 minute — awesome song, that started with a single line in a dream.

I have several toolies that I use when I get stuck, using the same Roman notation, so it doesn't matter in what key I start (can figure out all that later, or change it), and that chart is just lying about when I go hunting for cool progressions. It's by no means sacred, tho.

Well, the idea behind that particular chart is that you start on the I, and can jump anywhere you like, but have to return to the I following the given pathways.

But sometimes, depending on what I'm doing (dyads, triads, tetrachords) in all sorts of different tunings, I can find that one 'forbidden' combination that really grabs you. Also depends on the instrument, and higher/lower register. Our tuning isn't perfect, either.

ORIGINAL: Roflcopter

Well, the idea behind that particular chart is that you start on the I, and can jump anywhere you like, but have to return to the I following the given pathways.

But sometimes, depending on what I'm doing (dyads, triads, tetrachords) in all sorts of different tunings, I can find that one 'forbidden' combination that really grabs you. Also depends on the instrument, and higher/lower register. Our tuning isn't perfect, either.

yessireee!!! That 'forbidden' combination in the RIGHT place is the jewel.....wish i could find it..

It's also fun to play around in a key I'm not as familiar with because I stumble into neighborhoods i would normally avoid and, wah-lah,....something newish... Inverting bass notes in chords has tremendous power to change the feel of an otherwise stock change...(Beach Boys on Pet Sounds...lots of inverted bass lines completely creating new sounds to traditional phrases.)