Helpful ReplySonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why?

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robbyk
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2014/06/23 20:05:08 (permalink)

Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why?

I have a stereo voice track I am cleaning up for a podcast and one of my main concerns for the client is returning a file with equivalent dB levels. I have seen this on previous files from the client so I thought I would ask because I do not understand why I am getting a dB boost. I'm probably missing something easy here.
 
The raw file as rec'd from the client shows a peak in Sonar at 0.0 dB. I cleaned up the audio with SoundSoap Pro and bounced to track and the audio peak is still 0.0 dB.
 
I instantiated Sonitus EQ in the effects bin and set it up with a HP and a LP as follows:
 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/knkzv2zyuetiysp/Screenshot%202014-06-23%2018.58.50.png
 
You can see my audio now peaks at 2.0 - 2.1 dB. Since I have only cut frequencies, why the 2 dB boost?
 
Thanks!
 
 

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Cactus Music
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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/23 20:56:30 (permalink)
Look at your level meter. See the red dot. You have gone over. 
You should aim for just a tad under 0db. 
And myself I'd be using a compressor as that track looks like it's peaking a LOT. 
Hi pass is always a good Idea but if there was no low end content to begin with it won't change anything. 
Most mixers and pre amps have a hi pass filter so the signal was probably already processed. 
 
Once again I hate repeating myself but a program like Wave lab is easier to work with for wave editing because that's it's design purpose. Sonar is the worlds greatest multi track recorder but I use Wave lab for stereo editing. There are many other wave editors and some are even free like http://www.wavosaur.com/
Not saying you can't do it in Sonar, but without the analyzing tools your working blind. 
 
Example load the file. 
Check the peak level with the normalize tool. 
If the file has headroom say it's shows -4.5db then normalize it to -.05 db. 
If it say's 0 then it may be OK, but what about overs? 
This is where the Global Analyzer is indispensable because it will point them out for you. 
It will also check the average RMS level which to me is most important of all.
Average is a much different reading than peak. A file can have a reading of 0 db peak but it's average RMS level will be anywhere from 8 to 20 db. 8 db being about as loud as it gets, 20db might be a classical piece.  
If its RMS average is around 14 - 16 db it will be in the ball park on most playback systems. 
If it still shows 18-20 average RMS it's might be too quiet and you then proceed to use the Loudness Maximizer or your favorite limiter to kick it up 2 or 4 db,, no more if you can help it. 
If the file is that uneven in volume then there's some manual editing to do first.
That's chapter 2. 
 
If the file really must be output from Sonar then a great and easy solution is the LP64 Multi band compressor on the Master buss. It works pretty flawlessly to catch overs because it is a "look ahead" plug in. But that track would need to be turned down first it's over and that is not good. You could put a compressor in the tracks bin with a super fast attack, but I like my tracks to be under control without one. You can simply turn down the volume or gain. 
post edited by Cactus Music - 2014/06/23 20:59:59

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#2
robbyk
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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/23 21:53:20 (permalink)
Cactus Music
Look at your level meter. See the red dot. You have gone over. 
You should aim for just a tad under 0db. 



But that is the point.
 
The original file peaks at 0.0 dB
 
When I add a HP & LP, the file peaks at 2.0.
 
Why? They are only EQ cuts.
 
PS Thanks for all the advice, I really appreciate it. The above was only the beginning of my treatment. I reduced the sonitus output by 2 dB, bounced to mono (after reducing by another 3 dB to compensate), brought back into sonar and used Ozone's EQ boost, compression and a limiter (starting with the Podcast, Loudness Maximizer preset) and just now gave the client a pristine (and louder by RMS) voice track peaking at -0.3.
 
I just don't understand why the EQ HP & LP increased the peak levels by 2 dB?
post edited by robbyk - 2014/06/23 22:01:31

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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/24 10:12:52 (permalink)
OK I see what your saying. I guess the only answer would be the Sontitus EQ is buggy and is adding a little gain even when set on 0. Would be easy to test this. 

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robbyk
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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/24 11:26:09 (permalink)
Cactus Music
I guess the only answer would be the Sontitus EQ is buggy and is adding a little gain even when set on 0.


Well that is a good enough answer for me (better than my brain is addled), and definitely something for me to closely monitor as I receive more files from the client.
 
On the next file I'll try various EQ's and see how they compare. I use the Sonitus just because it's there.
 
Thanks!

"I'm just workin' on a good life, the way it is."
 
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Cactus Music
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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/24 12:05:17 (permalink)
Yes me too. so I'd be interested to see what happens if we plunk it on a test tone set at a known db level. 
Only thing I could see happening is if it was in parallel it would add a doubled signal path. But in series this should not happen.
 
One would assume that if it's output is set at 0 that it would not go over that unless more than 0 was input.
 

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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/24 12:43:40 (permalink)
I suspect there is a slight resonant bump in the filters so in this case the signal goes over. Normally this bump would not be an issue because the filtering would happen earlier in the signal processing when the incoming signal was not so hot. EQ is usually not at the end of the mastering chain where a signal is so high.
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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/24 14:25:46 (permalink)
My thinking too. As normally I would never have any of my tracks that close to zero anyhow. But it is good to be aware that if you add that particular EQ you can expect a jump in level.

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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/24 14:35:39 (permalink)
I have had this sort of thing happen before and it taught me a valuable lesson about putting in eq last in a chain if I am pushing close to zero. I think scook nailed it. It only takes the smalles resonant bump by one of the filters when you are near zero to take you over the edge.
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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/24 14:47:33 (permalink)
Change the slope of the hp/lp filters and see if that changes the level back close to 0db. The steeper the slope of the filter, the more the resonant spikes.
post edited by Grem - 2014/06/24 16:21:53

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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/24 15:01:31 (permalink)
scook
 Normally this bump would not be an issue because the filtering would happen earlier in the signal processing when the incoming signal was not so hot. EQ is usually not at the end of the mastering chain where a signal is so high.


But it is first, not last.
 
Here's the process:
 
1. I receive the file from client (stereo, 44.1 / 48000)
2. In all cases, he has already roughly edited his audio (field recordings of farmers, teachers, etc) and they are given to me with a peak of 0.0 dB
3. He wants me to take out wind noises, etc and "enhance" the audio.
4. The first thing I do is clean up the file with SoundSoap Pro (32 bit Sonar) and bounce to a new track.
5. At this point, the new audio peaks at 0.0 dB
6. I put on Sonitus EQ with a HP and a LP. My file now peaks at + 2.0 (or some increase) dB as shown in the screenshot.
 
So this is first in the chain, not last.
 
7. I reduce the output appropriately in sonitus EQ and possibly master gain and export as mono.
8. I bring the new file back into 64 bit sonar (with a peak  ~ -1 to -3 dB) and enhance, either with Alloy 2 or Ozone 5 as needed.
9. I return the mono file (cleaned up and "enhanced") to client with a peak of -0.3 but with the RMS level increased (ie it sounds louder).
 
The client then edits his audio as needed and converts to mp3 for online distribution.
 
So my Q is still, why a 2dB gain at the onset?
 
I also suspected a bump, as Scook suggested, but it is certainly not evident in the graph. This has happened repeatedly and I have done 6 audio files for the client to date. Each from a different speaker and locale.
 
I'm still happy its not my brain and lack of understanding. After 7 full weeks of radiation in the head last year, I have some "issues" like forgetfulness and calling dumplings "bisquits". :)

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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/24 15:02:49 (permalink)
Grem
Change the slope if the hp/lp filters and see if that changes the level back close to 0db. The steeper the slope of the filter, the more the resonant spikes.



That sounds interesting, they are steep slopes. What is a "resonant spike?"

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#12
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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/24 15:17:34 (permalink)
The client has already started the finalizing process by normalizing the file or recorded at too high a level. There is no headroom to do anything with the file. If the client will not send the raw file or reduce the recording level your options are limited.
 
 
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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/24 16:25:45 (permalink)
scook
The client has already started the finalizing process by normalizing the file or recorded at too high a level. There is no headroom to do anything with the file. If the client will not send the raw file or reduce the recording level your options are limited.
 


Indeed and agreed!
 
But you cain't always git what you wahnt :)
 
He just sent me a new file this morning and I will meet him on Thursday for the first time and see if I can better understand his process. Sometimes we got the play the hand that is dealt.

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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/24 19:25:41 (permalink)
Agreed, they should send you an edited file, but it is not their part in the process to normalize to 0. That's a bad idea at any point. Tell them they can normalize but say to around -4 or something that leaves room to work.
 
My procedure for files I record live to my Tascam DR 40 involve normalizing in the first step so I can see and hear better if the file was recorded real low. This is pretty common as you certainly are better off recording low than to take a chance on an over. But I Normalize to -4 in that first stage I would not recommend going to 0 at that stage of editing.  

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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/24 22:24:21 (permalink)
Cactus Music
 
My procedure for files I record live to my Tascam DR 40 involve normalizing in the first step so I can see and hear better if the file was recorded real low. This is pretty common as you certainly are better off recording low than to take a chance on an over. But I Normalize to -4 in that first stage I would not recommend going to 0 at that stage of editing.  




Excellent advice to carry with me to the client! Thanks!

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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/24 23:44:04 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby robbyk 2014/06/25 12:50:09
With lowpass and highpass filters, Q sets the amount of resonance. Try this:
 
  1. Right-click on the Sonitus graph and select range +/-5dB.
  2. Enable the lowpass filter and set the frequency around 3kHz or so.
  3. Set the Q to 2. You'll see the bump.

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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/25 08:57:42 (permalink)
When you meet with the client, ask him to actually show you how he edits the files. If you just ask for a description, he may leave something out that he doesn't think is relevant.
 
My guess is he's using the normalize function in his audio editor, thinking he's doing you a favor. If so, explain to him that you must leave some headroom any time a file is going to have further processing done to it.
 
Don't worry about hurting his feelings by criticizing his methods. Making him aware of that will greatly help your future collaborations, and make you look like a technical guru worthy of the fees he pays you.


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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/25 10:06:52 (permalink)
Anderton
With lowpass and highpass filters, Q sets the amount of resonance. Try this:
 
  1. Right-click on the Sonitus graph and select range +/-5dB.
  2. Enable the lowpass filter and set the frequency around 3kHz or so.
  3. Set the Q to 2. You'll see the bump.


Thanks for the excellent advice and explanation on resonance, I'll give that a try today on the new file; I suspect that will shed some light on this :)

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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/25 10:14:21 (permalink)
bitflipper
 
My guess is he's using the normalize function in his audio editor, thinking he's doing you a favor. If so, explain to him that you must leave some headroom any time a file is going to have further processing done to it.




I think the issue is he does so much work of this type and most of it is perfectly fine for his purposes. It's only after a fashion that he realizes some of the files are not up to snuff. He is 69 (slightly older than me) and loathe to go back and redo things. That being said he is a very nice gentleman and founder of our local baseball team and top brewery!
 
But your kind suggestions are well taken. I'm looking forward to seeing him on Thursday. If a grant he is working on comes through, there will be much for me to do :)

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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/25 12:58:43 (permalink)
Anderton
 
 
  1. Right-click on the Sonitus graph and select range +/-5dB.
  2. Enable the lowpass filter
  3. You'll see the bump.



Yes that is it, there is a bump that was not visible with the default +/- 20 dB setting! Thank you for showing me this!
 
Now I should be able to more properly set up my EQ without a dB gain :)

"I'm just workin' on a good life, the way it is."
 
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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/26 00:48:05 (permalink)
The Q setting ( 1.5 ) will impart a resonant peak at the frequency setting. Set the Q to 1.
 
edit: sorry didn't read the whole thread  - already answered

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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/26 10:57:18 (permalink)
He is 69 (slightly older than me)

Tell him the kids - the ones who wear their pants around their knees, baseball caps sideways, gaudy jewelry, hooded sweatshirts on 90-degree days and spell "beats" with a "z" - are all down with 0 dB.
 


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Re: Sonitus EQ peak dB boost. Why? 2014/06/26 11:31:31 (permalink)
bitflipper
He is 69 (slightly older than me)

Tell him the kids - the ones who wear their pants around their knees, baseball caps sideways, gaudy jewelry, hooded sweatshirts on 90-degree days and spell "beats" with a "z" - are all down with 0 dB.
 


I will do that, I'm on my way now:)

"I'm just workin' on a good life, the way it is."
 
Best, Robby K 
 
PC Specs: Dell XPS Tower, Intel Core i5 7400 CPU 3 GHz @, 8 GB RAM
Hardware: Focusrite Scarlett 2i4, Line 6 TonePort UX1, ART Tube MP, JBL LSR2325P 5" Bi-Amped Monitors
Software: Windows 10 Home, Sonar 8.5.3 Producer, Sonar Producer X1, Sonar Producer X2 expanded, Sonar Producer X3, Ableton Live 8.3.4, Ozone, Alloy, Toontrack, Podfarm, IK Multimedia, Garritan, Melodyne, Antares, Bias, Rob Papen, OhmForce, Don't Crack... 

Music 
Studio
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