Helpful ReplySound Blaster with Cakewalk?

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fortissimo
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2016/10/24 10:59:00 (permalink)

Sound Blaster with Cakewalk?

I am a composer who mostly just does score notation in Sibelius.  Once in a while I like to make a composition sound better by exporting to MIDI and mapping virtual instruments to it using Cakewalk.
 
My Sound Blaster died a couple years ago, and I've survived using my motherboard's on-board sound.  I can even run Sibelius/Kontakt with it.  [It's not pretty - the rhythmic precision in playback is choppy, making the computer sound a little drunk during realtime playback, but for me it gets the job done and certainly this becomes irrelevant when exporting audio... only relevant when playing real time].  But obviously I haven't done what I first describe above (MIDI, mapping instruments) for some time now - Cakewalk will not even output sound using on-board sound (or at least I haven't figured out how to get it to).
 
I'd like to do some more instrument mapping in Cakewalk Sonar, and I know I can't use it with an on-board sound card.  I know people are very reluctant to recommend Sound Blaster cards.  I'm willing to look into more professional audio cards, but are there any you'd recommend that have the standard 1/8" jacks in the back for output and input?  A decade ago I used to only buy professional audio cards, and I remember how relieved I felt when I finally just bought a Sound Blaster and no longer had to deal with various fancy-shmancy RCA, optical, etc. inputs and outputs.  Is there a cheapskate's professional sound card out there that would get the job done, be reliable, and be used commonly enough to never have to worry about drivers failing to be updated (that's another wonderful thing about Sound Blasters - you know that even a 15-year-old SB card is still going to have supporting drivers for it... possibly even included with Windows installations because SB cards are so ubiquitous).
#1
batsbrew
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/24 11:17:56 (permalink)
it can be done,
but i'd highly suggest not.
 
invest in at least the most basic of usb interface
 
IMHO anything is better than a sound blaster

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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/24 11:35:54 (permalink)
batsbrew
it can be done,
but i'd highly suggest not.
 
invest in at least the most basic of usb interface
 
IMHO anything is better than a sound blaster




 
couldn't agree more. get a decent brand 2 channel ASIO audio interface and you will live happily ever after
 

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mettelus
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/24 11:44:38 (permalink)
+1 to the above. Additionally, you will want to get used to using TRS cables as they are properly shielded and balanced (for mono signals). 1/8" jacks can have an adapter used to fit 1/4" TRS, but they are not the ideal choice. Almost any audio interface will have TRS jacks, so something to research.

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/24 11:55:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby BassDaddy 2016/10/30 10:57:22
+2
 
You've spent all that money on a computer and SONAR and now want to cheap-out on what is arguably the most important part of the entire setup.

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azslow3
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/24 12:07:40 (permalink)
For described task build-in sound card should work without problems/glitches, also in Sonar. May be with big latency, but still playable with MIDI keyboard. The same is true for SB, many people claim they have significantly reduced noise compare to old models (that was primary reason for me to use something else).
 
I do not think that "professional" and 1/8'' connectors are compatible words... At least RCA, more usual TS/TRS (some XLR) for output. Entry level: Focusrite Scarlett Solo. There are some (significantly) cheaper Behringer interfaces, but that can be even more problematic that your build-in sound.
 
Focusrite is known for relatively stable and long live drivers. You can find some "fail" reports, but much less than with SB (and SB was working fine for you).
 
If you are short in money and have Firewire (TI chip) in your computer, you can try to get low latency good sounding interfaces second hand for close to nothing. But check compatibility with Win10 first (officially it will not be supported, but users are reporting either they work in practice).

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fortissimo
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/24 12:11:30 (permalink)
Ok, I guess I can deal with the non-eighth-inch jack issue.  I guess the only issue left is the driver.  Any recommendations of specific models/brands that I won't have to worry about not being supported in future versions of Windows?  I guess another way to ask this question:  which basic "staple" pro sound card would be the most widely used?
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azslow3
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/24 12:28:04 (permalink)
mettelus
+1 to the above. Additionally, you will want to get used to using TRS cables as they are properly shielded and balanced (for mono signals). 1/8" jacks can have an adapter used to fit 1/4" TRS, but they are not the ideal choice. Almost any audio interface will have TRS jacks, so something to research.

Bristol_Jonesey
+2
You've spent all that money on a computer and SONAR and now want to cheap-out on what is arguably the most important part of the entire setup.

With all respect... If someone has NO mic and no guitar, not even monitors with TRS/XLR connector, what is the reason to spend money for good pre-amps and balanced outputs?


And in drivers live time (I do not speak about quality...) nothing from "decent brads" can beat SB, not even RME. And except RME, all that "decent brands" have "driver support disaster" interfaces.
 

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#8
scook
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/24 12:55:42 (permalink)
While I do not use ASIO4ALL or the internal sound chip, based on the data collected by Cakewalk through the analytics data reported in 2016.08 these are the top two audio outputs detected in the current version of SONAR. The former most likely driving an internal sound chip. I am not mentioning this as a recommendation but an observation that the internal chip in the PC should work albeit not the best performer. Here are the configuration instruction for the internal sound chip and the current version of SONAR. Adjust the drop downs as needed for your setup.
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tlw
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/24 13:00:51 (permalink)
If Windows can see and use the onboard sound, so can Sonar. At least, I've never heard of a situation where a working onboard card with a Windows driver can't be used in Sonar.

Check Sonar's audio preferences for it. You'll probably need to select the MME or WDM driver dialogue, not ASIO.

On-board chips are often OK for simple playback, though latency is likely to be an issue if you try to play anything using a MIDI controller.

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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/24 14:05:08 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby _Brandon 2017/11/16 17:44:05
In your situation, where you just want to hear your notated compositions, you're not recording an orchestra and you're not preparing a commercial release, your internal audio interface is probably all you need.
 
There's a tendency among those of us who are pretty serious about this stuff to assume the only path is to buy the most expensive gear we can afford. Expensive interfaces, microphones, speakers. Most of us, if we suddenly came into a lot of money, would have no problem quickly blowing $100K just on stuff we've been dreaming about but arguably don't actually need.
 
I know this may sound like heresy. And more than a little hypocritical. But let's take an objective look at what a more sophisticated interface gets you and see how many bullet points apply to the OP...
 
1. Low noise, low distortion, and minimal crosstalk. These are not necessarily prerequisites for everyone, certainly not for somebody who just wants to make a composition audible. Even the noisiest, nastiest interface will not prevent you from exporting a pristine digital mix for distribution.
 
2. Multiple inputs and outputs. Not everybody needs them. Especially if you have no need for inputs of any kind, such as is the case for 100% ITB composers, and your only output requirement is to hook up speakers.
 
3. Digital inputs and outputs. Not driving digital speakers, bringing in audio from external synthesizers or digital devices? You don't need ADAT, S/PDIF or TOSLink.
 
4. A dedicated MIDI port. Yes, MIDI over classic 5-pin DIN allows for more versatile connections and in some cases less-problematic connections. But in the OP's case, all the MIDI is internal to the computer.
 
5. Bespoke drivers. Using a built-in interface might necessitate using generic high-latency drivers, whereas a well-supported pro or prosumer interface will support all the driver models. Companies like RME write their own drivers and are always working on improving them. Our OP doesn't care, and needn't care, about latency - only reliability and simplicity of use, which MME excels at. And it will always work with every Windows version.
 
6. Metering. Irrelevant to the OP, who only needs to make sure his output stays out of the red.
 
7. Better headphone amplification. Here's a potential plus the OP might care about, having enough oomph to push some headphones properly. But headphone amplifiers can be bought separately, and if the headphones are efficient enough, or aren't used at all, may not be necessary anyway.
 
8. External effects. Great if you're recording vocals so you can give the vocalist reverb in his cans, but useless to the OP. 
 
9. Mixing and routing options. Many interfaces are full-featured mixers. Mine is as capable as most mixers I've ever used, but how many of us ever change their interface routing? Muting channels is about all I do.
 
10. High sample rates. Some integrated audio interfaces are limited to 48 KHz. Although sample rate often triggers debate, we can all agree that if you are playing back only sampled instruments, there is zero benefit to upsampling them from their original sample rate. 
 
11. Miscellaneous features. Phantom power. Balanced I/O. External controls. Rack-mountable for tidiness. XLR/TRS Neutrik connectors. Not applicable to the OP.
 
These are just off the top of my head. I'm sure others can think of additional benefits of a high-end interface, but they're likely equally irrelevant to the OP.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#11
Steve_Karl
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/24 15:30:16 (permalink)
I disagree with any recommendation for USB.
Pickup a used M-Audio PCI 2496 and learn to deal with the RCA outs.
It's the most solid on the cheap card you'll ever find.
 
2 right now on eBay for $30.00 or less and free shipping:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i...udio+2496&_sacat=0
 
 

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tlw
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/24 17:55:20 (permalink)
A 2496 might be OK if (1) the PC has any PCI slots, and if so they are not shared, and (2) the operating system is no more recent than Windows 7.

My old Delta44 would playback in Win7 but not record, and wouldn't even do that in Win8.

In any case, if all that's required is playback not recording, relying on low-latency software synth use or routing monitor mixes the built-in sound might well be more than adequate. Lot's of people work entirely in a Windows or Mac laptops and even tablets using just the internal sound chip because they don't need audio inputs that are any better than the built-in microphone pre. If they need audio input at all.

It strikes me that the first question that needs addressing is why sonar isn't seeing a built-in chip the rest of the system can see and access.

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Cactus Music
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/24 19:10:44 (permalink)
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/UCA222?adpos=1o2&creative=97569006481&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&product_id=UCA222&gclid=CJnCucvG9M8CFRSIfgodoJAGVA
 
It doesn't get any cheaper than this. I own the old model UCA 200 and have used it for music playback for years now. It came free with a little Behringer mixer ( that broke).
It uses a plug and Play USB Codex and it's dead simple. always works the second I plug it in.  Notice it has both RCA and a 1/8" jack.
 
PCI sound card were common 1o years ago but now on board audio is on par with anything any sound card offers. Creative Labs is overpriced OMHO.
But seriously myself I'd spend the $150 and get a Tascam US2x2.  and never look back. You can always use the headphone output and a 1/4" to 1/8" adaptor if you need to.

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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/24 20:21:47 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby pwalpwal 2016/10/25 06:35:16
Just for the record, I have been using the on-board Realtek audio chip in my el-cheapo Acer Aspire E-15 laptop, with the freeware ASIO4ALL drivers, and the 1/8" audio output.  This is a year old model with a Core i5 mobile processor (dual core), 4GB RAM, and a slow 5400 RPM HDD, running Windows 10 64-bit.
 
For playback only.  No audio recording.  Just to use a USB MIDI keyboard to control virtual instruments hosted in Sonar synth rack.  Can also play MIDI files mapped to VST instruments ...  the 4GB RAM seems to be the limiting factor as far as the number of VSTi instances that can be run.
 
It actually works very well!!!  No glitching, dropouts, or delays. I even get close to the same latency as my desktop DAW does with a Firewire audio interface.  I only got this laptop for mobile computing, not audio.  I already have a DAW that exceeds my needs, but was pleasantly surprised to discover I could play around with the laptop while traveling.
 
Edit: Also for the record, I tried this on-board Realtek audio configuration with Sonar and the available Windows drivers (MME, WDM, and WASAPI) instead of ASIO4ALL, and could not get usable performance.  It sounded very bad, with long delays and dropouts.  The Windows drivers sound good for me only with web streaming audio and video such as media players, YouTube, Netflix, etc.  That stuff can buffer all it needs to provide smooth playback.  But for real-time audio, no.
 
If I wanted to do more with the laptop, such as mobile recording, I would probably add a $100 USB audio interface with ASIO drivers.  Probably the Focusrite, Tascam, or Steinberg 2x2 type units would suffice for lightweight recording purposes.
post edited by abacab - 2016/10/25 08:24:01

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TheMaartian
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/25 12:10:28 (permalink)
Realtek updated their drivers for Win10 last year (just found this link yesterday). Tick the box, click on next, and d/l the appropriate drivers.
 
http://www.realtek.com/do...ID=3&GetDown=false

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fortissimo
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/27 11:57:36 (permalink)
Thanks everyone for chipping in!  I have been "away" from this thread for a couple days because the USB ports on my my motherboard are going out and I've been distracted researching new motherboards, CPUs and RAM.
 
I guess my priority is not necessarily price but long-term compatibility. Sorry for the misleading "cheapskate" wording I used - I guess there is a small correlation in my mind between cheap sound cards like Sound Blasters and long-term reliability - I've had lots of sound cards die on me, but ironically, only the "pro" sound cards die for the reason of outdated drivers - that doesn't happen to Sound Blasters, and SB's tend to be cheaper.  I have used various pro sound cards in the past, and I just remember feeling so relieved when I started using a Sound Blaster because I felt like it still did everything *I* needed it to do (I definitely will not use about 98% of the options that come with drivers and even the software I use), except I didn't have to rely on obscure drivers from companies that are always making me wonder, "Are they going to release a driver update for the next Windows version?"  I've also been scarred in the past by my luck with computers - even my computer guru software developer friend says I have pretty bad luck with computers.  Even as I try to purchase only those things that are most guaranteed to work well for the longest amount of time (I give a LOT of weight to number and quality of reviews of computer products), weird things still seem to go wrong.
 
Once I get a new MB/CPU/RAM and get my system up and running again, I'll give the on-board sound card thing another go since people above point out that it really should work.  Maybe I won't even have to buy a dedicated sound card.
 
For now, I just tried to see if I could get things to work... to no avail.
 
Options --> Instruments (assign instruments)
The "Output/Channel" panel has nothing available.  The "Uses instrument" panel has the following options:
<default>
General MIDI
General MIDI Drums
Generic (Patches 0..127)
Generic (Patches 1..128)
Roland GS
Roland GS Drumsets
SoundFont Device
Yamaha XG
Yamaha XG Drum Kits

Options --> Audio --> General, "Playback Timing Master" only gives me two options: None, or 1: Realtek HDA SPDIF Out [WaveRT]
(1: Realtek is currently selected, obviously)
 
Options --> Audio --> Advanced --> Driver Mode:  this is the only place I've been able to find anything even remotely mentioning ASIO.  When I change this from WDM/KS to ASIO and save, then go back into Audio --> General, "Playback Timing Master" gives me no options whatsoever.
 
Options --> Audio --> Drivers:  I am told to check/uncheck drivers.  The following output drivers are listed:
Realtek HD Audio output [WaveRT] 1/2
Realtek HD Audio output [WaveRT] 3/4
Realtek HD Audio output [WaveRT] 5/6
Realtek HD Audio output [WaveRT] 7/8
Realtek HDA SPDIF Out [WaveRT]
 
By default, only the last one was enabled.  I tried enabling the 1/2, 3/4, etc. and saving the options.  After going back into the audio options, nothing new appeared as far as playback or instruments are concerned.
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fortissimo
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/27 12:00:29 (permalink)
TheMaartian:  Every time I've ever updated Realtek drivers through Windows updates, it has screwed up my entire system and I've had to revert back (I've tried probably 3 times over the past several years).  I know getting third party drivers through Windows is generally a bad idea, but are you 100% sure these drivers will not screw things up?  :)
 
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TheMaartian
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/27 12:54:20 (permalink)
fortissimo
TheMaartian:  Every time I've ever updated Realtek drivers through Windows updates, it has screwed up my entire system and I've had to revert back (I've tried probably 3 times over the past several years).  I know getting third party drivers through Windows is generally a bad idea, but are you 100% sure these drivers will not screw things up?  :)

I downloaded them directly from Realtek. I did not use Windows update. I also did not use DriverScanner, a utility I own. I've had problems with both in the past.
 
But so far, I haven't experienced any trouble with the newest drivers. The biggest issue for me was remembering that I had disabled the motherboard audio via the BIOS. Doh! But 100%? I'd never promise you that.
 
On another issue you mention...your bad luck with computers.
 
I would DEFINITELY look at the quality of your A/C power. Put an oscilloscope or analyzer on it. You may find that a power conditioner works wonders. If you're plugged into a cheap UPS, that could be your problem. Something like this sure makes me look at the power source.

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#19
azslow3
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/27 16:39:57 (permalink)
fortissimo
Options --> Instruments (assign instruments)
The "Output/Channel" panel has nothing available.  The "Uses instrument" panel has the following options:
<default>
General MIDI
General MIDI Drums
Generic (Patches 0..127)
Generic (Patches 1..128)
Roland GS
Roland GS Drumsets
SoundFont Device
Yamaha XG
Yamaha XG Drum Kits

Options --> Audio --> General, "Playback Timing Master" only gives me two options: None, or 1: Realtek HDA SPDIF Out [WaveRT]
(1: Realtek is currently selected, obviously)
 
Options --> Audio --> Advanced --> Driver Mode:  this is the only place I've been able to find anything even remotely mentioning ASIO.  When I change this from WDM/KS to ASIO and save, then go back into Audio --> General, "Playback Timing Master" gives me no options whatsoever.
 
Options --> Audio --> Drivers:  I am told to check/uncheck drivers.  The following output drivers are listed:
Realtek HD Audio output [WaveRT] 1/2
Realtek HD Audio output [WaveRT] 3/4
Realtek HD Audio output [WaveRT] 5/6
Realtek HD Audio output [WaveRT] 7/8
Realtek HDA SPDIF Out [WaveRT]
 
By default, only the last one was enabled.  I tried enabling the 1/2, 3/4, etc. and saving the options.  After going back into the audio options, nothing new appeared as far as playback or instruments are concerned.

1. Preferences, set "Advanced" mode (and keep it so).
1. Audio->Playback and Recording->DriverMode : WDM/KS (you have it, but check that you have not switched it). If you have just selected it, press "Apply" before next steps.
2. Audio->Devices:
   * in Output : UNCHECK everything including SPDIF(!), check "Realtek.... 1/2"
   * in Input: check "Realtek... 1/2" or whatever you see these, EXCEPT SPDIF.
3. MIDI->Devices: UNCHECK everything
4. "Apply", "Ok", exit and start again.
Create NEW empty project.
Load some audio data / go into browser , find some loop and put it on Audio track (or in the empty space of track view, the track will be audo-created).
Press "Play". Do you get any sound? If yes, everything is ok.
 
If no, let us know either you could follow that instructions. There are other options to check/try, including ASIO. If you are patient, we can make it running.
 

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
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RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc.
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#20
BassDaddy
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/30 10:58:00 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
+2
 
You've spent all that money on a computer and SONAR and now want to cheap-out on what is arguably the most important part of the entire setup.


This is worth reading again!

It's Bass, not Bass.
i7 2700K, 16GB DDR3, 2 SSD sample drives and OS drive, HDD SATAIII for projects, 2 24" monitors
Focusrite Saffire Pro 24, Focusrite VRM Box, LAVA Lamp, SONAR Platinum 64 bit, Mackie MCU and 1 MCU XT, Akai Advance 49, Windows 10,
Komplete 9 Ultimate, Cakewalk, Toontrack, IK, AAS, XLN, UVI, Air Music Tech, Waves Factory, Sample Tek and Sonivox VSTi's. Overloud, T-Racks, Audio Damage, D16, Nomad Factory, Waves Gold FX 
#21
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/30 11:14:33 (permalink)
Agreed.
Aside from the PC itself, the audio interface is the second most critical choice for a rock-solid DAW.
The OP can get a new audio interfaces with two channels of analog I/O (decent fidelity) with a proper ASIO driver for ~$150.  
 
If the OP is investing hundreds of dollars in software (and the hours to learn/use)... it doesn't make sense to short-change the audio interface (having to live with limitations of a unit that wasn't designed for this particular purpose).

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#22
abacab
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/30 18:46:20 (permalink)
If most of the experts here actually read the OP's post, rather than just the comments about the post, it would be obvious that the OP is not asking how to build a great DAW. 
 
Bitflipper nailed it here ...
 
bitflipper
In your situation, where you just want to hear your notated compositions, you're not recording an orchestra and you're not preparing a commercial release, your internal audio interface is probably all you need.
 
There's a tendency among those of us who are pretty serious about this stuff to assume the only path is to buy the most expensive gear we can afford. Expensive interfaces, microphones, speakers. Most of us, if we suddenly came into a lot of money, would have no problem quickly blowing $100K just on stuff we've been dreaming about but arguably don't actually need.




DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ... 
#23
Jim Roseberry
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/31 16:38:51 (permalink)
abacab
If most of the experts here actually read the OP's post, rather than just the comments about the post, it would be obvious that the OP is not asking how to build a great DAW. 



If one expects to work efficiently/effectively:
It doesn't make sense to get a decent machine... and skimp on the next most critical component (the audio interface).
The audio interface is critical to effectively working with DAW/Scoring applications (at effective latency, sans glitches and problems).
 
Steve mentioned a nice/inexpensive option in the Audiophile 2496.
A used Audiophile 192 would be another very inexpensive solution (with balanced I/O).
You can get a new Focusrite 2i2 for ~$150.
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#24
abacab
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2016/10/31 18:29:29 (permalink)
Jim Roseberry
 
Steve mentioned a nice/inexpensive option in the Audiophile 2496.
A used Audiophile 192 would be another very inexpensive solution (with balanced I/O).
You can get a new Focusrite 2i2 for ~$150.



http://community.m-audio....windows10-64bit-driver
 
The Audiophile 2496 will not be updated for support with Windows 10 and has been discontinued for some time now. Some users have had success using the last available driver for Windows 7, though this is not guaranteed. You can download that driver here:

Audiophile 2496 - Windows 7 Driver

M-Audio has not made any PCI cards since this series. Our closest current equivalent is the M-Track series, which is fully supported on Windows 10. For a complete list of our Windows 10 supported products, please see our knowledge base page:

http://www.m-audio.com/kb/article/1882
 
If one is inclined to get an inexpensive modern audio interface, I agree that the $150 for a Focusrite 2i2 is probably the best investment.  But for playback only of MIDI files it is most likely a nice to have item, that you could grow into, but not an absolute necessity.  If you intend to do any audio recording, it then becomes a must have part of your rig.

DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ... 
#25
_Brandon
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Re: Sound Blaster with Cakewalk? 2017/11/16 17:54:48 (permalink)
bitflipper
There's a tendency among those of us who are pretty serious about this stuff to assume the only path is to buy the most expensive gear we can afford. Expensive interfaces, microphones, speakers. Most of us, if we suddenly came into a lot of money, would have no problem quickly blowing $100K just on stuff we've been dreaming about but arguably don't actually need.
 
I know this may sound like heresy. And more than a little hypocritical. But let's take an objective look at what a more sophisticated interface gets you and see how many bullet points apply to the OP...


 
It's a pleasure to read an intelligent post.
#26
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