pwalpwal
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/09/27 11:10:48
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SonicExplorer If listening isn't enough what's the right way to be certain then? Should I take the two rendered files and re-import them into a project, phase invert one of the tracks, and then bounce out again and inspect the result visually to make sure it is dead flat-line?
this is what i meant, yes but as the others say, if it sounds ok then it is ok
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Joe_A
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/09/27 15:06:57
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Or do a double blind listening test? But as others mentioned this may or may not be worth spending time on. It's totally up to you.
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whitejs
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/09/27 16:18:24
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Having been in audio clubs in which we sound-test cool speakers and amps and, yes, cables and such, I've seen enough to say, with confidence, that the very first thing one should do is a blind test. Have someone queue up the music without telling you which one, then you say which. Have them flip a coin on their own to choose which one to play. Do this twenty times for at least a modicum of statistical breadth, then check the results. My most famous run with this kind of thing earned me $100. A friend said he could DEFINITELY tell the difference between a famous Canadian amplifier and a mid-priced Japanese amp. He bet $100. We did the test and not only did he completely not know which amp was which, he would vehemently shout "That's the Canadian League there, boys!" when the other amp was blasting the music. This is not to say there aren't differences in your files/exports/Sonars; it's just to say that the very simplest thing to start with is a blind test. If that is miserable for you, then the rest is explained.
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Anderton
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/09/27 16:36:42
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...and besides, the bottom line is the listeners don't care. As I often say, no radio station ever refused to play one of my records because it used a solid-state mic preamp.
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savoy
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/09/27 17:14:58
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is not whatever Sonar version have the same (audio engine) ??
(apologise for my english) sonar 5 std-m-audio windows xp quad-core pcJBL SPEAKER,RHODE NTK MIC.APEX 160
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Anderton
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/09/27 17:28:44
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savoy is not whatever Sonar version have the same (audio engine) ??
Yes, the changes since it went 64-bit have been about efficiency.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/09/27 19:50:44
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I suspect implicit to this discussion was a question of whether or not the audio engine was improved in S6 over S5. Listening on playback my ears say yes, but that's not what the rendered files seem to indicate thus far. However, I still need to do a bit more testing by re-importing the rendered files and inspecting more closely.
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drewfx1
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/09/28 17:31:53
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Something to keep in mind - the audio engine isn't really doing anything that one should expect to hear differences between versions: 1. Summing tracks is literally summing - you just add the samples from each track together and that's all it is. 2. Level changes (including pan) is just multiplication - lowering gain means you multiply each sample by a number less than one and increasing gain means you multiply each sample by a number greater than one and that's all it is. With 32 bit precision the calculations are effectively perfect from a human perspective (meaning calculation errors are almost certainly buried below other noise and also below the threshold of hearing). And with 64 bit double precision enabled the calculation errors are effectively mathematically perfect to far beyond 24 bits (meaning any calculation errors won't ever make it into the output). Anything other than this would mean the audio engine wasn't designed to be clean and was instead trying to deliberately color the sound. Unless there's a bug, Sonar doesn't do that - unless you use plugins/EQ/console emulator/etc. to tell it to.
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/01 22:00:14
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Guys, I spent some time today and determined the kick & snare hits are indeed very audible on the phase inversion test, so I need to look into that further. BUT, as for guitar and bass, still nothing audible. But, when I bounced out a section of the rendered tracks with only bass and guitar playing, and then re-imported the result, the graphic does not visually look like a perfect flatline as I expected. I was hoping some of you guys might take a look/listen to a short .WAV file, but I don't know how to attach it here. What am I missing? Sonic
post edited by SonicExplorer - 2017/10/01 22:24:51
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Anonymungus!
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/02 02:05:59
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Great stuff, I like Subtlearts explanation(s). chuckebaby I could be wrong but I believe the Capstan rollers in Sonar 5 were higher quality than Sonars newer versions. thus less wow and flutter .
Chuck, I got the swab & alcohol, but I can't find the capstan or the heads or anything. And I checked the Tape Emulator.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/02 03:46:46
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LoL Ok, I like a joke as much as anybody but the latest findings indicate I was indeed hearing a difference after all. I had chalked the existence of drum hits up to the fact LiveSynthPro doesn't work reliably with multi-core CPU's, but it must be more than because I am only using LSP on the kick and yet I'm hearing both kick AND snare hits in the phase reverse test. While DFH Superior is the primary drum source I also use Sound Fonts for kicks sometimes. Anyway, beyond that however, the original findings remain in place WRT the bass & guitar tracks - there is no readily "audible" difference but yet there appears to MAYBE be a difference in reality because the tracks are not perfectly flatlined. So I'd really like to have you guys take a look & listen, if somebody would explain how to attach a short .WAV file to this thread.... ?? Sonic
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chuckebaby
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/02 10:20:16
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SonicExplorer LoL Ok, I like a joke as much as anybody but..
Sorry that was my fault. SonicExplorer So I'd really like to have you guys take a look & listen, if somebody would explain how to attach a short .WAV file to this thread.... ??
You have a few options here Sonic. 1- You tube 2- Soundcloud 3- DropBox Either of these will do but You tube is free for endless listens. SC and DB keeps a tally on data. You will obviously want to keep both examples the same sample rate and bit rate. Also make certain the volume and gain are the same. Hope this helps.
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c5_convertible
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/02 11:26:23
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If the audio is generated from a soft synth, then that may also be a reason there is a difference. Especially with drums, as they sometimes 'humanize' things. Meaning, small differences in performance every time, like a real drummer. If these are rendered tracks, imported into each version, then this does not apply. But, when generated in each sonar version, there might be a difference that causes the tracks not to 'flatline'. In superior drummer, there are some settings to tweak what it actually does, but changes in velocity and tempo are definitely on by default. Also, some effects (especially the ones that emulate vintage equipment) add some random element as well. While these will cause a null test to fail, it would not mean a lot of difference in sound...
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stxx
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/02 15:51:45
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All these explanations..... lol moot. Null test - SILENCE means IDENTICAL and ZERO difference so issue is in your head somewhere or on your playback.... No other explanation needed
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pwalpwal
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/02 16:03:22
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you can take possible dpe "efficiency changes" out of the equation by disabling it in both and trying
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drewfx1
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/02 16:36:52
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☄ Helpfulby tlw 2017/10/02 18:25:13
c5_convertible If the audio is generated from a soft synth, then that may also be a reason there is a difference. Especially with drums, as they sometimes 'humanize' things. Meaning, small differences in performance every time, like a real drummer. If these are rendered tracks, imported into each version, then this does not apply. But, when generated in each sonar version, there might be a difference that causes the tracks not to 'flatline'. In superior drummer, there are some settings to tweak what it actually does, but changes in velocity and tempo are definitely on by default. Also, some effects (especially the ones that emulate vintage equipment) add some random element as well. While these will cause a null test to fail, it would not mean a lot of difference in sound...
This is indeed a big problem and it occurs with many, many, many effects plugins (including things you wouldn't expect). And if they deliberately added some randomness it's obviously not unexpected that it should be audible. The way to determine it is happening is to export things twice without changing anything. Until you are nulling completely when exporting the exact same thing twice it is useless to try and test the impacts of changing something.
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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chuckebaby
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/02 21:19:28
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stxx "so issue is in your head" - "No other explanation needed"
A little harsh, no ? Imagine if everyone here used that as an answer ?
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whitejs
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/03 03:05:29
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chuckebaby
stxx "so issue is in your head" - "No other explanation needed"
A little harsh, no ? Imagine if everyone here used that as an answer ?
Cogent comment, Chuck. Right on time. I find, also, that the humor-only comments are useless, as well (the tape-drive stuff). This is deep stuff, actually, and probably over the heads of most of us in terms of knowing what a digital system really does with audio inputs/outputs/intermediate processing. It deserves, I feel, careful thought and consideration. I wish the braintrust at Cake would come in here and pitch their views.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/03 22:10:08
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Thanks again guys for all the constructive input, this forum is just incredible. Nice catch on the drums...I have the humanize settings enabled in DFH Superior, so I suspect that is the culprit on the drum side. I can investigate further, but for now, more importantly is the remaining tracks (such as guitar and bass). I have been recording for longer than many people on the forum have probably been alive and struggled making the conversion from the big-studio analog days to the home DAW. While I'm getting old and my hearing isn't 100% anymore, I am still able to detect very minor sound differences. And something seems audibly different to my ears. Especially given how sensitive I've always been to guitar distortion textures. The digital audio world has struggled in that realm IMO so I'm always listening for how "real" the guitar tones are being captured & replicated. And to my ears S6 is seems to be generating a slightly "softer" more realistic sounding tube amp distortion on playback. Actually, as I said initially, the overall playback for all tracks in S6 seem to exhibit that same vibe. I too really wish someone from Cakewalk would comment on this subject. I realize S5 and S6 are older but maybe there is something interesting to be learned. Or maybe there is indeed some sort of difference on playback, if not also in the rendering. Maybe inaudible differences using a NULL test can, in some instances, be audible in rendered tracks? I'm simply not enough of an expert in this kind of digital minutiae. Sonic
post edited by SonicExplorer - 2017/10/04 03:03:48
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Anderton
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/04 04:21:43
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SonicExplorer I have been recording for longer than many people on the forum have probably been alive No worries, ever since Bob Moog died now I'm always the oldest guy in the room I too really wish someone from Cakewalk would comment on this subject. I realize S5 and S6 are older but maybe there is something interesting to be learned. Or maybe there is indeed some sort of difference on playback, if not also in the rendering. Maybe inaudible differences using a NULL test can, in some instances, be audible in rendered tracks? I'm simply not enough of an expert in this kind of digital minutiae.
I think we're getting into "how many angels can dance on the head of an S5 pin." I worked with Abner Spector, who produced "Sally Go Round the Roses" by the Jaynetts. Once he produced 75 vinyl masters of a song. He had to go away for a week. When he came back, he couldn't tell the difference between any of them. All that matters is the emotional impact of the music on the listener.
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drewfx1
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/04 17:15:32
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SonicExplorer Maybe inaudible differences using a NULL test can, in some instances, be audible in rendered tracks? I'm simply not enough of an expert in this kind of digital minutiae.
If something nulls perfectly it means it's exactly the same. If it nulls to the point of being below the threshold of hearing it is inaudible by definition. If it nulls to the point of being sufficiently buried below the noise floor of the track, or the listening environment, or anything else it is inaudible.
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/04 20:33:10
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Well then, if I had to make a wild guess I suspect there is something about the playback between S5 and S6 that is different, rather than the rendering. Such that S6 playback is maybe more true to what is actually rendered. I'd have to really do some intense listening tests to see if this was likely the case though, and if any settings were causing it or rather it is something intrinsic to S6. SOMETHING sure seems to be going on, even though it is subtle, whatever it is. Sonic
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Rbh
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/04 20:47:06
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For whatever it's worth - I recently jumped from Sonar5 to Sonar Pro and I hear no audible difference that I can attribute to Sonar. I did check to make sure that the pan laws were the same. There are differences between DAWS though, Samplitude sounds great and does sound different, as does Mixbus. I like the sound from all of them but working in Sonar integrating midi to audio is far more advanced in my opinion.
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glennstanton
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/04 21:06:39
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Maybe the difference is the dithering setting / algorithm
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/04 22:33:22
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Ok, so pan laws and dithering are potential possibilities. Please add anything else to the list you guys can think of that are worth checking. I'll wait a day or so and then take any suggestions and look into things.... Sonic
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tlw
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/05 03:40:40
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Any plugin that emulates the noise produced by analogue hardware is quite likely not to produce the same noise twice in a row. It might, but since the noise component is basically white noise and fake hum it might not.
On the subject of noise, if any plugin is creating noise, e.g. a synth patch, then that may well not be the same twice. Not if it’s properly randomised anyway. Reverbs might not produce identical output on every run through a track either.
What might be worth a try, and I think eliminates everything but the audio engine, is to load a stereo track, commercial or one of your own into a fresh project in each Sonar version. Use no plugins, not even eq and no dithering. Then bounce out from the Master bus at the same bit depth and sample rate as the project.
Do this twice from each version. If S5 copy one nulls S5 copy two, and the S6 renderings null each other, then that shows both versions are rendering the same thing, or as close to it as matters, every time. Then try nulling a rendered track from S5 with one from S6 and see what happens then.
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Kev999
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/13 22:25:57
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SonicExplorer ...is the only viable explanation that it is all in my mind?
It was in my mind too. I originally started with Sonar 6 and I do remember that there were differences between playback and export in that version. Also, playback of 24-bit mixes sounded hugely dynamic against 16-bit versions of the same mixes, which sounded flat and lifeless in comparison. After upgrading to Sonar 7 and beyond, these differences were no longer apparent.
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jpetersen
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/14 08:50:20
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The channel mixing algorithm got upgraded sometime around S5/6.
post edited by jpetersen - 2017/10/14 09:24:15
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pwalpwal
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/14 09:57:58
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pan laws also got some attention at some point
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SonicExplorer
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Re: Sound Difference Between Sonar Versions?
2017/10/14 15:23:19
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jpetersen The channel mixing algorithm got upgraded sometime around S5/6.
Whoa...hold on.... Channel mixing algorithm? Isn't this the same as, or similar to, the topic of summing, which has been discussed in the past on the forum as being an audible non-factor between different audio software? Which would then imply, unless there was some sort of bug/error in Sonar to begin with, there really shouldn't be any audible difference to a change in the mixing algorithm. Or am I missing something here.....
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