Sound on sound Jan issue, Mixing Led Zeppelin

I didn't think console automation even existed at the time of Zep's first couple albums. When it came along a few years later it was expensive and very limited (no pan or EQ automation, just volume faders). I don't think I even saw an automated console until the mid 80's. I thought it was uber-cool at the time, and the studio was quite proud of having it.

Which album were they discussing? My local bookstore where I used to buy SoS has closed and I can't bring myself to pay for reading it online, so I have to wait until it's posted as a free read.

It's about the Celebration Day DVD from their "02" gig a few years back.

Yeah, the story is about mixing the new live cd and dvd. It has a few screenshots of pro tools were the toms are treated heavy with automation. I think I've been missing a boat here. As I said my question is more about application...not how to do it. I believe he was trying to eliminate crosstalk or spillover with the toms for clarity. I guess it's just dawning on me what all can be done with automation.

i've used automation instead of deessing, for example...

i mean, you could literally automate every single sound, but there's a point where your capture needs to be good enough to not have to ever do that...
then, you decide on an ARTISTIC reason to do automation...
from basic level control, to creating effects with simple fader rides....


automation, when i speak 'automation', usually i'm thinking very simple use:
1. Volume
2. Panning


on occasion, i'll do 'EFFECTS SEND' automation, just to bring, say, a reverb in and out.

but you can get crazy with automation.


when i mix, i get a good overall balance, and live with that for a while...
and eventually, every single track gets a volume envelope put on it, and i automate every track.

sometimes, like on a bass line, the automation envelope will remain a straight line throughout!
LOL

but, depending on the arrangment, if i have a quiet section, and i did not perform the bass line with the level of dynamics i really wanted, i'll simply bring the bass volume down for a section, and then bring it back up to the level it was to start.


but making music BREATHE........
is to me, the point of automation.


i can imagine, that the mixer wanted the toms to really stand out on signature fills, just like a mixer of days gone by, would have simply ridden the faders and pushed them up for that section, and brought them back down before the next vocal line started.

clintmartin


This story makes me realize I need to learn more about using automation. I was surprised when looking at some of those tracks. Does anyone have any tips or links to help with the learning curve? I know how automation works in Sonar...I guess it's application I have over looked. Has anyone read this story in SOS?

I'll tell ya Clint, that's definitely one of the best live track mixes I've ever heard. When I heard Kashmir (I'm working on a heavy version of it myself based on the Celebration Day DVD) the hair on my arms stood up....and I ain't got much hair on my arms. LOL!
 
Automation is both a feel and an ear thing really. The best use is for when you need something to stand out in a spot and then you back it down again. You'll really go crazy with this stuff when you have a large mix because the instruments sort of take turns blasting dynamically and then backing down.
 
For example, there are certain pitches in instruments that will stick out further while others sort of blend right in. In times when you have a "blend right in" situation, you may need the instrument in question to rise a few dB so it remains consistent. In a sense, you're sort of using automation like a compressor but you'd be handling volume only instead of transient attack/release and volume, understand?
 
Then of course there are times when you may want an effects bus to be hotter so the effect you're using can be heard a bit more, and then you back it down or totally shut it down if need be.
 
Or, during a guitar solo, you may have two rhythm guitars going on. When the solo section hits, you may drop the rhythm guitars down -1 dB and after the solo finishes, you bring those rhythms back up so it doesn't sound like something dropped out when the vocals come back in.
 
Or you may have a place where the drums need to hit a little harder in a song or maybe the drummer did one of those riffs that gently came in and may have been a bit too reserved on his natural, human fade in. So you can automate and bring those drums up and ride the fader. There are loads of uses for automation but it's up to you to decide where and IF you even need them. Not every piece of music needs insane automation.
 
Most times, lead vocals or lead guitars are the ones that will need a bit of "fader riding" as we like to call it. Or any time a lead instrument is the focal point, you may need to ride the fader via automation so all the parts are heard. You're basically just trying to express an instrument to where it sort of comes out of the shadows a bit and then it may fade back into the mix to where it's a nice blend.
 
Let's go back to that rhythm guitar situation again. With lowering the volume on them, you may also decide to automate the pans and pan outwards (wider) to make room for the lead guitar that will be in the center pan field with a delay and a stereo widener so it simulates taking up more than just the center pan field. When the solo is done, you lower the rhythm guitars and tighten up the pans so that space the lead guitar was in, is now filled up again and nothing drops out.
 
So you pretty much have to use your imagination based on the instrumentation you're working with and if you experiment a bit, you'll find yourself doing little trippy things here and there, and you'll know when to do this to the extreme and when to just let an instrument be heard for a bit. Hope this helps a bit. :)
 
-Danny

Oh Clint, we soo gotta get you into the punch-in world brother. LOL! I'm old school too...but even in my old days of tape, I was still a punch in prostitute. THEN I'd learn the stuff I played after if I had to perform it live.

See that's the key...if you're like me, you probably never want to punch in or manufacture a part that you can't physically play live, right? At least that's how I feel. So I don't ever try to create something from punches or do comps....I play the part as best as I can, set up my punch points and fix my mistakes. It really does cut a lot of time out. When I used my tape machines, they were pro machines that didn't have punch inserts. You literally had to press play and record at the same time during a pass. It was brutal man!

Imagine having to find just the right point to sustain a note on with your left hand while pressing play and record at the same time....I soo hated that! One of my myachines had a punch insert, but the big one didn't. So I was stuck really doing things the hard way. But yeah, you definitely should get into that....you'll be happy you did once you get the hang of it.

It's ok to keep things simple in your mix. The good thing about automation though, you can set your compressor to just work and tighten things up. Then you automate so that things are more natural. The problem with compression is just like you said. That damage is brutal, but that's only due to 2 things most times.

1. The person may not have performed as cleanly as they could have...or they may not have used "mic distancing" on a vocal track. Stuff like that can dictate how much compression needs to be used.

2. When the above happens....people over use compression and rely on the compressor way more than they should. The same principal applies to people trying to master a song really hot. They rely so much on the limiter instead of getting the mix right, that they totally miss the boat.

BUT...when you have a good instrument delivery, have the right compression setting that just keeps you consistent while keeping things dynamic, light automation is the icing on the cake and allows you to totally be heard without the damage a compressor alone may cause. So it's great to use both. The better you perform the tracks, the less "in moderation" you can use these techniques. But in larger mixes with lots going on, it's going to be just about impossible to not have nodes running all over the screen. LOL!!! That's just the nature of this beast sometimes. :) Good luck Clint...keep us posted. :)

-Danny

My best tracks, both instrumental and vocal, are usually the ones I recorded in real time, the whole song front to back, with minimal edits afterward. I'm not good enough to always pull it off, but it's what I shoot for. Practice, practice, practice, then record.

I have no such self-imposed limitations when it comes to automation, though. My tracks often look like a plate of multi-colored spaghetti, with volume, pan, effect and EQ automation galore.

I've only really ever done basic fade ins and outs, so I'm inspired to explore the possibilities. Thanks for everyone's feedback!

bitflipper


 My local bookstore where I used to buy SoS has closed and I can't bring myself to pay for reading it online, so I have to wait until it's posted as a free read.

I subscribe to the "dead tree" version, which in the UK is cheaper than buying at a newsagent, this gets me the eSub free. However it looks like if you want the iPad Apps version you do have to pay extra.