Voda La Void
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Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
Got a song I've put a lot of time into and now that I'm working on the vocals I'm realizing it's a bit draggy and needs to be sped up just a tad. It's not a difficult song to play or anything, and I usually perform it faster anyway, but it's lot of guitars and the sound is right where I want it. I tried using the Cakewalk Audio "stretcher" (in Home Studio 2...yeah, I know, really old version) and it keeps the pitch ok but there are all kinds of artifacts and skipping and is just completely unusable. Is there anything any of you could recommend that does a transparent job of speeding up the audio just a bit, without changing the pitch? I just don't have the energy and the time to re-record all of those tracks just to bump the tempo a bit.
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Beepster
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 01, 15 12:07 AM
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When you do any type of stretching like that it will use the "online" algorithms which are meant only to give a preview of what the time change/pitch change/etc will sound like. Once you "bounce" the stretched clips(s) it will use the higher quality "offline" algorithms which will clear up all those artifacts you are hearing. Here's the thing though. There are multiple "offline" algorithms to choose from and some work better than others on specific types of material. Generally the RadiusMix once work well. IIRC you can set these in the Clip (or Groove Clip) Inspectors (which I'm now realizing you may not have access to in such an old version of Sonar). Anyway... I have no idea what Sonar 2 has as far as features for this stuff but definitely you're gonna want to bounce the stretched clip so it gets rendered using whatever "offline" algorithms you have available to you. There are also many other methods to stretch and fiddle with stuff that can be tweaked like the Loop Construction View (if you have access to that in your version) where if there are artifacts even after bouncing the stretched clip (Acidized Groove Clip) you can adjust the transient splits and whatnot to make the stretch sound better. Hopefully you've got a manual around to see how this is done in Sonar 2 because I only know X series stuff. Cheers.
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Voda La Void
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 01, 15 2:24 PM
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Thanks Beepster. I went back and bounced the guitar tracks to one stereo track. Then I stretched the audio by 95% and that seems to be about where the tempo feels right now. Artifacts were present and wave view looked all weird, as per usual, so I did what you said and bounced that track to yet another one and sure enough it cleared up the wave view back to normal, saw the track was a little shorter and the artifacts are mostly gone but it still sounds "weird". Something still isn't right. Feels like some notes aren't *on* here or there, and I can still kind of hear some saturated syncopated effect on open chords and such. I wonder if my Cakewalk is too old for any quality audio stretching to be done, en mass with such a thick guitar sequence...? My version is so old they don't even call it Sonar. This was sold back in 2001 or so, I think. I can't upgrade to Sonar anything without upgrading my whole PC. This is a Windows XP machine running this old version and it just works. I'm in no financial condition to do any of that, and won't be for quite some time. Bummer.
post edited by Voda La Void - November 01, 15 3:10 PM
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Beepster
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 01, 15 3:04 PM
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Edit: Before attempting ANY of this make sure you do a "Save As" of your project so you don't lose your original project as you play around. Also I usually make copies of any clips or tracks I intend to do things like stretching on so the originals remain available so I can try again without using "undo" and or I can try out different techniques and compare the results (and choose the best ones). You probably know this but I'd hate to lead you to a crash or have your raw waves get screwed up because I urged you to get all fancy arse. Original Post... ======================================================= Oh... yeah, you should not be bouncing all the tracks together before doing the stretch (ideally). Stretch your individual mono tracks individually (you could stretch them all at once if your computer can handle it but either way... leave them as separate tracks when stretching). Then "bounce/render" the stretch to each individual track on at a time (still separately). That should work better. A lot of stretching stuff relies on the transients in an audio clip so by bouncing/mixing all your clips together you likely made things harder for the stretching stuff to really detect the transients for the stretching (like the multiple clips created less precise "splits" at the transients so it futzed up). As automatic as this stuff is these days it is still a rather precise procedure that requires your splits be at the best spots on the clip (at the transients) to work well. So if you do them separately it should work better BUT if not see if there is something called a "Loop Constructor" view which allows you to get right into the wave and adjust where the splits occur (like sometimes the transient detection will miss some transients in which case you add them or it detects the transients too early or late in which case you move the splits to where the actual tranients occur). That is more "GrooveClip Looping" stuff (as opposed to the Izotope stretching done in Track View) but it can acheive the same thing. Again it depends on what features that old version has but if you got this far I can only assume that you have the tools you need to make it happen and doing whatever stretching you did here on the INDIVIDUAL tracks and then bouncing the INDIVIDUAL tracks one at a time you'll get less artifacts. Look into the different "offline algorithms" you have access to as well. Sorry to be vague but as I said... I'm an X series brat so I can only guess as to what you have access to. Check the manual for some of the terms and techniques I've mentioned here. Also know that the more drastic the tempo change the more problematic it becomes. So if you are doing something nutty like going from 100bpm to 150bpm or 200bpm the results will be less desirable and/or you will REALLY need to get in and place your splits accurately by hand in the Loop Constructor (if you have it). If you are only increasing/decreasing the tempo by say 5bpm's then it's usually going to work out better/easier. Also disable ANY and all effects before bouncing (or disable them from the bounce if possible) because transient detection works best on clean, dry, articulated tracks and let's the software work better. You can add the effects back in after you have bounced. Certain dynamic effects though may actually HELP define the transients better such as compressors or limiters that even out the peaks a little but if you totally squash it (so the lower parts are closer to the peaks and make the transients less defined) then it starts to not work so good. Basically heavy distortion or tons of reverb is back for transient detection. Something like a limiter that accents the transients a little better MAY help... but due to the bounce you may be stuck with it. Ideally you want a nice, clean and cleanly played part with defined transients (in the case of guitar cleanly picked notes and chords). Hopefully this points you in the right direction. It's a bit of a confusing topic but I have been VERY impressed at some of the results I've gotten with Sonar using some of these principles. Cheers.
post edited by Beepster - November 01, 15 3:21 PM
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Voda La Void
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 01, 15 4:05 PM
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Thanks again, Beepster - that makes total sense, I'm trying it now... No worries my friend, I already did a 'save as', in addition to the duplicates of the originals I always keep in case one file crashes and becomes unrecoverable (I had a song once that became inaccessible after an audio engine error during playback).
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bitflipper
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 02, 15 8:47 AM
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You're going to experience artifacts stretching audio by 95% regardless of what software you use to do it. That's almost equivalent to lowering your sample rate from 44.1 KHz to 22.05 KHz and then interpolating all the lost data.
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Voda La Void
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 02, 15 9:11 AM
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Beepster - I tried it like you advised, each track stretched separately, then bounced separately, and there's still all kinds of issues. I've resolved to just re-record the damn thing. Really bums me out, but I can't have that draggy tempo and I can't suffer the artifacts from this process so... bitflipper - I found the percentage to be a little confusing. 95% (5% shorter than the original) only makes the whole 5 minute piece about 15 seconds shorter, overall. If it's that impacting on the data, then yeah, there's no getting around the artifacts. I guess now I'm wondering...if my stretch is that mild, and it sounds like that, then what use is stretching at all? Why is there a scale of 25% to 400% if even just a 5% deviation from original is that terribly rendered? At any rate, thanks for all your help Beepster. I'll just have to redo it.
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Beepster
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 02, 15 9:27 AM
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bitflipper You're going to experience artifacts stretching audio by 95% regardless of what software you use to do it. That's almost equivalent to lowering your sample rate from 44.1 KHz to 22.05 KHz and then interpolating all the lost data.
If the tool OP is working with is similar to the clip Time Stretching in newer versions that 95% might actually be a 5% speed up. Like when I use that method (the one where you hold control and slip edit the clip) it starts at 100%. If you speed up the clip slightly (by making it smaller) it'll use 100% as the base and gradually go down by percentage points. 95% in that scenario only represents a slight speed up. 105% a slight slow down. That is of course the Sonar 2 stretching operates in similar manner. It may not. An actual 95% speed up (so 100bpm to 195bpm) would definitely be problematic. I've gotten away with some pretty drastic changes though without artifacts but it still had an "odd" quality to it when using the slip stretch. However, and I have yet to try this to such extremes, in one of the Anderton X1 Advanced video series he manages to get those drastic time stretches (like doubling/halving the speed or more) using the Loop Constructor. In fact he recently typed up that technique for his Tips thread in the Sonar forum (it's part of the Varispeed technique... if you ignore the pitch aspect of the trick). It's all about getting WAY into the transient slices and requires the audio to turned into GrooveClips. I have done a bit of tinkering with that when I was playing around with some of the sampler VSTs and it does seem to work very well without aritifacts but it's a LOT of precise transient futzery. I find it all really fascinating and this type of stuff is going to be very useful to me for fixing up sh*tty live off the floor demos recorded without clicks. Cheers.
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Beepster
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 02, 15 9:49 AM
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Voda La Void Beepster - I tried it like you advised, each track stretched separately, then bounced separately, and there's still all kinds of issues. I've resolved to just re-record the damn thing. Really bums me out, but I can't have that draggy tempo and I can't suffer the artifacts from this process so... bitflipper - I found the percentage to be a little confusing. 95% (5% shorter than the original) only makes the whole 5 minute piece about 15 seconds shorter, overall. If it's that impacting on the data, then yeah, there's no getting around the artifacts. I guess now I'm wondering...if my stretch is that mild, and it sounds like that, then what use is stretching at all? Why is there a scale of 25% to 400% if even just a 5% deviation from original is that terribly rendered? At any rate, thanks for all your help Beepster. I'll just have to redo it.
That is disappointing and really should not be happening for such a slight change. Perhaps it is simply because it's so old and the algorhithms can't handle the material. It's quite possible that back then it was only intended for use on more percussive material like drums which respond to stretching much better than things like guitar. At some point Cakewalk introduced iZotope time warping algorithms for this stuff (if you are familiar with iZotope you know they make top notch stuff that almost seems impossible). I'm guessing that if those aren't being used in that old stretch tool that would explain the difference in your experience and mine. Alternatively maybe the process of doing the Offline rendering is different in Sonar 2 so the rendering of the stretching isn't happening (or isn't happening in the best possible way). Actually make sure you don't have your Offline render/bounce settings to be the same as your Online render settings. In newer versions it allows you to render using the crappier, artifact filled Online algos but there are a half dozen WAY better ones (like RadiusMix and the like). Retracking can sometimes suck but look at it this way... the parts will probably come out a lot better now that the tune has settled into your mind. I know if I retrack something it pretty much ALWAYS turns out much better. And not to sound like a shill but if you can swing it you might want to consider upgrading. The new Sonar is really freaking snazzy... but you'd have a HUGE learning curve to catch up. Good luck.
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scook
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 02, 15 10:15 AM
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Beepster, you are confusing SONAR 2 with SONAR Home Studio 2. Both are older products, SONAR 2 was released around 2002 and SONAR HS2 around 2004. This is a free plug-in which might still work given the age of your DAW. IIRC, it was fairly popular at the time. It is called Delaydots Pitchworks. It can do both pitch and tempo shifting.
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Beepster
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 02, 15 10:41 AM
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scook Beepster, you are confusing SONAR 2 with SONAR Home Studio 2. Both are older products, SONAR 2 was released around 2002 and SONAR HS2 around 2004. This is a free plug-in which might still work given the age of your DAW. IIRC, it was fairly popular at the time. It is called Delaydots Pitchworks. It can do both pitch and tempo shifting.
Interesting. I might do some searching to see what the difference is (just out of curiosity for the history). Really though I don't know anything about either version so any "help" I provided would have still been as vague and speculative. I am guessing though that maybe Sonar 2 is more like present day Sonar (being a direct ancestor) than Home Studio was which sounds more like one of those simpler offshoot things like Music Creator or GuitarTracks... or perhaps Sonar 2 was still mostly MIDI and HS was where the audio component started getting introduced. I'm sure all that info is somewhere on the intertubes. Cheers.
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 02, 15 4:43 PM
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I started out with Cakewalk Home Studio 2 and still have it on my XP machine …. The best thing out there that you can get for FREE that runs on XP , that will do time stretching is this .. http://pro.magix.com/en/samplitude/miditech-english.730.html The thing is , be prepared to have to deal with a steep learning curve Kenny
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brundlefly
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 02, 15 5:06 PM
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Tim, I'm sure anyone contributing here would be happy to run your audio tracks though one of SONAR's more advanced 'Radius' stretching algorithms to see if the results are more acceptable. Chances are you'll still want re-record, ultimately, but if you want the share the tracks somewhere, I'll give it a go. IIRC, SONAR can open Home Studio files; if that's the case, zipping up the project file with its audio might be the best way to share it.
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Voda La Void
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 03, 15 12:41 AM
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brundlefly - that would be awesome. Thank you for that. Are you talking about the ole Cakewalk bundle file? I haven't archived a cakewalk project into a single file in forever, but I remember the bundle file. I can upload it to my web space and then share a link, if that will work.
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Beepster
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 03, 15 1:11 PM
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If I were to do it (IF... I'm a little lethargic/busy and don't want to disappoint or make promises I can't keep) I would generally ask for track exports of the files (so a wave for each track that needs to be time stretched) at the original project's samplerate/bit depth. These would need to be exported from the VERY start of the project (silence and all) so 00:00:00 to the end of the project. No FX added and exported at a good solid volume. And EXACT details on the samplerate/bit depth, original tempo and target tempo. Going from a bundle from an ANCIENT version into a newer version and then back again is just asking for problems. Simple waves can be easily moved back and forth. All I'd do at that point is set up the project using the original samplerate/bit depth/tempo (oh and time sig... that's important too), perform the stretching/bouncing, export the waves and send them back. Like I said... I ain't saying I'll do it. Just offering a potential collaborative workflow I've used in the past that works and avoids cross version futzery (this way the work could even be done in OTHER DAWS). Maybe someone who hasn't had a chance to really play with this type of thing will step up for the learning experience or one of the pros with a little more brainspace and time will handle it. If not let me know and maybe I'll give it a whack.
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brundlefly
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 03, 15 2:14 PM
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Beepster And EXACT details on the samplerate/bit depth, original tempo and target tempo. Going from a bundle from an ANCIENT version into a newer version and then back again is just asking for problems. Simple waves can be easily moved back and forth.
The need to know the starting tempo and clip start times, etc., and the desire not to put Tim through the wringer with export complications is why I thought it would be easiest to just have a copy of the project. But going the other way, I thought I might just return time-stamped audio files for import rather than a project that might not be backward-compatible with Home Studio. Tim, I would suggest just zipping up the project with its audio folder (assuming Home Studio does per-project audio folders...?) using 7Zip rather than using a bundle, but either would probably work.
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Beepster
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 03, 15 4:00 PM
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brundlefly The need to know the starting tempo and clip start times, etc., and the desire not to put Tim through the wringer with export complications is why I thought it would be easiest to just have a copy of the project. But going the other way, I thought I might just return time-stamped audio files for import rather than a project that might not be backward-compatible with Home Studio. Tim, I would suggest just zipping up the project with its audio folder (assuming Home Studio does per-project audio folders...?) using 7Zip rather than using a bundle, but either would probably work.
Def's. Good skill to have though and OP seems clever enough (if he managed to absorb and execute my meandering nonsense). bapu gave me a crash course in export/collab/file sharing my first month here (and beyond). I am eternally greatful for that.
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Voda La Void
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 03, 15 7:35 PM
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brundlefly - Home Studio just has the main audio data folder. I think I'm just going to re-record this one. I appreciate the offer. It will be for the best, in the end.
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brundlefly
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 04, 15 2:02 AM
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Yes, probably best to re-record. Stretching that many entire tracks is never going to sound great. Cheers, Dave
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mettelus
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 04, 15 9:47 AM
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It sounds as if you are already deep into the project with a lot of tracks. Based on that I would tend to finish it "as is" and then adjust the final mix down track. Audacity is a free program that will do this fairly well, and if adjusting by only a few percent should not be egregious with artifacts.
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Voda La Void
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 04, 15 10:41 AM
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mettelus It sounds as if you are already deep into the project with a lot of tracks. Based on that I would tend to finish it "as is" and then adjust the final mix down track. Audacity is a free program that will do this fairly well, and if adjusting by only a few percent should not be egregious with artifacts.
It's one of those songs where the verse actually feels a little better right where it is, but the chorus feels better and more appropriate a little faster, for the planned vocals. It's almost a mood thing. The rest of the tune could work as it is too. My plan is go ahead and lay some test vocals. Along with re-recording an acoustic track with the tempo up a little bit, do some test vocals on that too and then compare the two. I'm telling you, the guitars are not difficult or anything, but damn I really got them tuned up well and the acoustics and electrics just sing together during the chorus part - turned out exactly how it sounded in my head, which is rare. Just hate effin with that, ya know? I have audacity too, so I'll test that tonight. I'll admit, I have no confidence in it, but it's worth a test. Thanks!
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Beepster
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 04, 15 10:57 AM
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Audacity is an insanely good/useful program for what it is. It does certain things that most top shelf DAWs don't and you gotta pay through the nose for to get elsewhere. Of course it's limitations make it kind of useless as daily use DAW (like no real time FX tweaking) but some of the included tools/features are pretty surprising... and that's completely ignore the fact it's free. I recently found out it does hardcore wave editing stuff that I've been eyeballing other programs for that costs hundreds of dollars. I still "need" those other programs but just knowing I can get all wave mangly with Audacity is pretty cool.
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57Gregy
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 07, 15 10:44 AM
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What I would do: Export the mixed project (sans vox) as audio. Import it into a new SONAR project, select the track, go to Process>Length and set it to 95% or so. Then record your vox.
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mudgel
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Re: Speeding up pre-recorded audio without changing pitch
November 10, 15 9:13 AM
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Beepster Audacity is an insanely good/useful program for what it is. It does certain things that most top shelf DAWs don't and you gotta pay through the nose for to get elsewhere. Of course it's limitations make it kind of useless as daily use DAW (like no real time FX tweaking) but some of the included tools/features are pretty surprising... and that's completely ignore the fact it's free. I recently found out it does hardcore wave editing stuff that I've been eyeballing other programs for that costs hundreds of dollars. I still "need" those other programs but just knowing I can get all wave mangly with Audacity is pretty cool.
There's a whole suites of plugins for Audacity and it can also load some VST 2.4 plugins. http://audacityteam.org/download/plugins
post edited by mudgel - November 10, 15 9:31 AM
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