JerryLan
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Staff View On X2
When I first got Producer X1 I had lamented that entering notes on the staff view required the use of a button labeled 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 etc where in Sonar Producer there were music notation buttons to choose from. Musicians should think in music notation not mathmatical fractions. So I ask anew, has this changed in X2?
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swamptooth
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/09 16:50:06
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nope it hasn't. i would however say that the idea that musicians should think in music notation not mathematical fractions is quite a westernized concept and very limiting. it is hard to do microtunings from global regions outside the scope of western music and accommodate other tuning systems such as harry partch's 43 tone scale. and remember, even western tuning was derived mathematically from fractions. http://en.wikipedia.org/w...thagorean_tuning
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John
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/09 16:50:44
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Those mean eighth note quarter note and half note respectively. I am not sure how that is a problem.
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JerryLan
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/09 18:54:33
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Swamptooth, I am exceedingly sorry if your view of world music was insulted. It won't happen again.  Does anyone know of an add-on to make entering notes on the staff view more intuitive to those of us impaired by western music notation? It is not optimal to have to use Finale to score things and import everything over.
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willmarpo
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/09 19:31:04
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OK. 1. When you are writing music in staff, there are no numbers written, just figures that are universal for melodic music (other notations exist). It makes total sense to me to expect a system that shows the actual figures (head-stem-flag) that are to be placed, and no some numbers or fractions. That has to do with usability rather than music theory or where you live, or where you learn music. 2. Now, using the lenght of the note is something from USA, German,following that root. In French and Spanish, they are named after the actual figure: Round (redonda), white (blanca, blanche), Black (negra, noir), and so on. Italians use another names. The only thing that is universal for all (Asian notations are different, but adopted this one), is the actual figures. So, if the program is going to be used worldwide, why choose an icon in a button that may be undestood only by North American's and Germans? That is the actual discussion. 3. To answer the question, since that is why we are here for, I have no idea of any plugin to change that, nor any clue of a preference to change to figures. What I would suggest, though, is that since working with the staff view in Sonar is actually a pain for input of a great amount of music, is to get a specialized notation software (finale's notepad is free and basic but works pretty well, AND HAS FIGURE BUTTONS as we may expect), and then import the midi file. Hope this helps. William Martinez Pomares.
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willmarpo
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/09 19:33:15
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Sorry, I didn't read your last comment saying Finale's was not optimal. Yes, you are rigth, but it seems it is what we have. Sorry.
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swamptooth
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/09 19:47:15
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JerryLan
Swamptooth, I am exceedingly sorry if your view of world music was insulted. It won't happen again. Does anyone know of an add-on to make entering notes on the staff view more intuitive to those of us impaired by western music notation? It is not optimal to have to use Finale to score things and import everything over.
LOL. no insults here. i'm just kinda sad that the staff view isn't more accomodating. i am however, very pleased that z3ta, rapture and dim pro utilize scala files which is pretty awesome! i just remember with a shudder the first time i had to analyze one of john cage's handwritten scores. whew. talk about a mind blower!
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jb101
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/09 19:47:19
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swamptooth
nope it hasn't. i would however say that the idea that musicians should think in music notation not mathematical fractions is quite a westernized concept and very limiting. it is hard to do microtunings from global regions outside the scope of western music and accommodate other tuning systems such as harry partch's 43 tone scale. and remember, even western tuning was derived mathematically from fractions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_tuning
How does the duration of a note (crotchet/quarter note etc.) relate to micro-tunings? That baffles me. Before accusing people of being"cultural-ist", perhaps we need to get our facts straight. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I've not used the staff view in X2 yet. I gave up some time ago and use Finale or some such and import into Sonar when I need to. I'll have a look, when I get a chance.
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swamptooth
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/09 19:49:39
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the relationship is that all tuning systems, especially western, are based on mathematical relationships and notation systems are basically fractional representations of pitch and duration.
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jb101
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/09 20:04:45
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swamptooth
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/09 20:15:22
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jb101
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/09 21:19:50
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I can't speak for the OP, but I think he wanted pictures of quarter notes/crotchets, whatever one wishes to call them, not just "1/4" notes.
How bringing micro-tonalities etc. into the conversation helped him, I don't know.
If one is using the staff view, based on western notation, I'm not sure how, in a DAW, we can encompass other world views without a myriad of buttons.
Notation is a western way of expressing music. It has its limitations.
I teach students the European names for note durations:- crotchets, quavers, semiquavers, etc., and also their american counterparts:- quarter notes, eighth notes and sixteenth notes, etc. When I draw a note on the staff, they understand what it is. I was guessing that this has changed in Sonar, and now use the American names, not the symbol. If I was wrong, I apologise. I'll have a look when I have time.
I still don't understand how this relates to micro-tonalities etc. I understand different tunings, temperments, and notation etc. But the OP was asking about the "STAFF" view, with respect to note durations. Surely this implies using western terminology, whether it be European or north american?
I deleted my previous post, as it is late, and I'm off to bed, and arguing this point seemed pointless.
I know what I meant, and so the OP would have done. Turning a convesation around to our own narrow sphere of knowledge does not make us wise.
John Cage was a great educator, not confuser.
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John T
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/09 21:32:01
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Well, I think he invited that by talking about how musicians "should" think.
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John T
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/09 21:34:14
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Me, I think anyone who wants to get all "I'm a proper musician" about it probably "should" be able to translate "1/4" into "crotchet" fainrly painlessly. This is not rocket science. And it's not like one is music and one's maths. They're both maths.
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swamptooth
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/09 23:30:26
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jb101
I can't speak for the OP, but I think he wanted pictures of quarter notes/crotchets, whatever one wishes to call them, not just "1/4" notes.
How bringing micro-tonalities etc. into the conversation helped him, I don't know.
If one is using the staff view, based on western notation, I'm not sure how, in a DAW, we can encompass other world views without a myriad of buttons.
Notation is a western way of expressing music. It has its limitations.
I teach students the European names for note durations:- crotchets, quavers, semiquavers, etc., and also their american counterparts:- quarter notes, eighth notes and sixteenth notes, etc. When I draw a note on the staff, they understand what it is. I was guessing that this has changed in Sonar, and now use the American names, not the symbol. If I was wrong, I apologise. I'll have a look when I have time.
I still don't understand how this relates to micro-tonalities etc. I understand different tunings, temperments, and notation etc. But the OP was asking about the "STAFF" view, with respect to note durations. Surely this implies using western terminology, whether it be European or north american?
I deleted my previous post, as it is late, and I'm off to bed, and arguing this point seemed pointless.
I know what I meant, and so the OP would have done. Turning a convesation around to our own narrow sphere of knowledge does not make us wise.
John Cage was a great educator, not confuser.
yes, john was a great educator. an instructor of mine, gordon mumma, was a collaborator of his. i was fortunate enough to meet and speak with john on two separate occasions about a year before his death. i didn't have an issue with the op, except for the line "Musicians should think in music notation not mathmatical fractions.". if it hadn't been for the dissection of music into mathematical fractions, there would be not form of western notation as we know it. we would also be missing out on the revolutionaries such as cage and stockhausen and wendy carlos and harry partch. to me, saying musicians should think a certain way is like saying astronomers in galileos time should believe the sun revolved around the earth. fortunately, innovators like bob moog and others like dave smith and chet wood and miller puckette, etc. did not lock themselves in that box. i just think it's funny that in a field of inherent and beautiful creativity such as music to say an artist has to think a certain way is a bit hubristic.
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JerryLan
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/10 14:08:25
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"to say an artist has to think a certain way is a bit hubristic."
I already appologized. I meant that "I" think that way.
By the way if you look up "Staff view" on the search screen you will find a post I made two years ago about the same thing when X1 came out and the input menu was first changed to take away the pictures of notes. A lot of people agree with me that the staff view is not very good.
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kevo
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/10 14:28:11
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Exactly what is a "Staff" View? This?  I forgot to mention, this is what pops up when I click Staff View...
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riojazz
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/10 16:21:55
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Staff view has changed that much?
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swamptooth
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/10 20:06:33
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sorry didnt mean to sound like i was bustin your chops.
@kevo - that pic looks more like my step sequencer. lol.
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kevo
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/10 23:19:50
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swamptooth
sorry didnt mean to sound like i was bustin your chops.
@kevo - that pic looks more like my step sequencer. lol.
Strange. Shouldn't Step Sequencer look like this? 
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vintagevibe
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/10 23:32:48
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JerryLan
"to say an artist has to think a certain way is a bit hubristic."
I already appologized. I meant that "I" think that way.
By the way if you look up "Staff view" on the search screen you will find a post I made two years ago about the same thing when X1 came out and the input menu was first changed to take away the pictures of notes. A lot of people agree with me that the staff view is not very good.
The Staff View is horrible and unusable for me. Cakewalk has orphaned it. Sonar will never have usable notation for proper composing. Sad but true. At some point I will have to learn another DAW but since that is a time consuming task I just rewire Sibelius. Horrible, clunky workflow but it's functional. I'm waiting to see how DP8 for Windows pans out.
post edited by vintagevibe - 2012/12/12 15:15:47
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pbognar
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/11 00:13:33
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JerryLan
Swamptooth, I am exceedingly sorry if your view of world music was insulted. It won't happen again. Does anyone know of an add-on to make entering notes on the staff view more intuitive to those of us impaired by western music notation? It is not optimal to have to use Finale to score things and import everything over.
Were you thinking of something like this:  This was available from an add-on called Sonar Plus. BTW - the author of this was hired by Cakewalk, so one would think that it would have made its way into X2 by now.  I'd like to see a few more buttons for actions which are hidden in menus.
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pbognar
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/12 14:39:45
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firefly9000
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Re:Staff View On X2
2012/12/12 15:37:26
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As a classical guy this is what I USED TO DO: Compose in Finale, transfer MIDI to Sonar This is what I DO NOW: Open two paralel viewports, one with notation on top, the other wit piano roll on the bottom. Both are set to the same tracks. That way, whatever I write in piano roll shows up as notation above. The advantage here is that you can follow harmony and counterpoint while working relatively fast in piano roll. The disadvantage is if you have more than a simple melodic line as Sonar writes some wacky notation to represent it. Also, if you play your lines , it has a hard time interpreting correctly into notation what you've just played, unless you quantize (even then the end of the notes is always problematic). There you go - Now pick your POISON :) I found writing in Finale first a waste of time. I'd rather be old school and use paper and pencil to sketch. That way I just input the notes once.
post edited by firefly9000 - 2012/12/13 19:27:01
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