lfm
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Re: RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it?
2010/05/18 12:25:03
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Personally I like the staff view and the basic idea is very good. But my demand on these function has maybe not been everybody's. I have Finale Guitar also for more demanding things. I had some conversation with people at Finale 3-4 years ago about that their new version with a lot of stuff just overlapping what every daw has would be better to integrate into existing daws. So integrating notation software into daw would be better for every party. Doubling functionality of daws in notation software just increase price of product and users have to pay over and over for a lot of things they already have elsewhere. I'm not sure if something is done in integration. Is it rewire that is used mostly doing integration today, or?
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passenger57
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Re: RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it?
2010/05/18 12:56:07
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I use it ALL THE TIME!! I'm old school composer and I have to see the notes as I'm writing. Plus its great to print out a quick part if I have a live player in my studio. I know its basic - but I have to have it for reference. Could it be improved, of course - but for now I just add articulations by hand. If Staff View was removed I'd stop using SONAR. Gotta see my notes man!
post edited by passenger57 - 2010/05/18 12:58:37
SONAR 8.5.3 PE (x64) WINDOWS 7 Pro (64bit) Intel Core 2 Quad CPU Q9300 2.49 GHZ EMU 1616m 8 GB Of RAM ATI RADEON HD 4650 w/ dual monitors Vienna Ensemble Pro VST PLAY VST
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D.J. ESPO
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Re: RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it?
2010/05/18 14:08:10
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It is a cunundrum for cake ; It is so very possible now for a user to make a multi-track recording now and never enter into the same zip code of notation .... But If you get into composition and want to write some nice melody you are shortchanging yourself by not taking advantage of the system that was developed and honed for CENTURIES before the computer or the DAW!!! I have only just begun the journey into reading the staff , and it seems to be a bit of a tough slog . But I can already see the rewards too . After reading this whole discussion with much interest , I have to conclude that Cake has made a cost-benefit anaylsis and sees most of the user base as non notation type of users ... a pity because as even the cursory reader of the thread should take away ... It's about COMPOSITION!!!! If you remove composition , and by extension , well executed composition , then a DAw is kind of a waste anyway . Anyways , I have to get busy researching the notation programs out there ... any one know of a good place to start .... silebus seems to get mucho more mentions than Finale in this thread !!! cheers P.S. , this might be of interest to some http://music-notation-software-review.toptenreviews.com/the-best-music-notation-software-on-the-market.html Also , I'm especially interested in percussion and finale's latest salvo seems to have taken that bull by the horns ; offereing improvements in that catagory over silebus .... any input on that catagory ... percussion notation that is ??
post edited by D.J. ESPO - 2010/05/18 14:12:04
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pbognar
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Re: RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it?
2010/05/18 17:38:13
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The worst and most likely thing which could happen to Staff View in Sonar is that it will get no further development attention. Removing it would make no business sense, because part of the user base would drop it and switch to another application. As I've indicated elsewhere, I'd be happy if they would just address Susan G.'s triplet issues. If they created a Samplitude type combined editor - even better. My personal opinion is that if you want to print world class notation - export your stuff into a world class notation program. Here's hoping for Sonar 9 (or whatever they are going to call it).
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vicsant
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Re: RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it?
2010/05/18 20:27:19
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silebus seems to get mucho more mentions than Finale in this thread !!! D.J. ESPO . .... silebus seems to get mucho more mentions than Finale in this thread !!! cheers P.S. , this might be of interest to some http://music-notation-software-review.toptenreviews.com/the-best-music-notation-software-on-the-market.html Also , I'm especially interested in percussion and finale's latest salvo seems to have taken that bull by the horns ; offereing improvements in that catagory over silebus .... any input on that catagory ... percussion notation that is ?? Finale is my notation program of choice. I've done arrangements for rhythm and brass sections, sequenced in Sonar, then opened as a midi file in Finale for final tweaking, and printout of parts for the live performance. Works for me. I don't expect to be able to do what I do with Finale in Sonar, but SV in Sonar needs a major upgrade!
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Ranietz
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Re: RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it?
2010/05/18 20:32:50
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I haven't used the staff view much. Mainly because it's no good at the things I need it to do. But if it was better I would use it more. I wanted to print out some sheet music for live players but the printing options are no good. It only lets you choose between x numbers of set sizes and it usually looks like a mess. I just want to be able to choose how many measures there should be per line so I can organize it better. (Pardon my English. I don't know how to explain it any better)
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lfm
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Re: RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it?
2010/05/18 23:51:10
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D.J. ESPO this might be of interest to some http://music-notation-software-review.toptenreviews.com/the-best-music-notation-software-on-the-market.html Also , I'm especially interested in percussion and finale's latest salvo seems to have taken that bull by the horns ; offereing improvements in that catagory over silebus .... any input on that catagory ... percussion notation that is ?? Thanks for the link, very nice. hmmm....everything but Finale? But maybe it's meant for all affordable notation software. Finale Guitar was the one I found affordable once, but that is discontinued I think.
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rjt
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Re:Staff view - how many users seriously use it?
2010/05/19 19:57:10
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I don't usually respond because there are some very talented people who beat me to the punch. I use staff view all the time.... but then I learned to read music when I was 5 (in my 50s now), was in a musician's union when I was 12 and played music for spending money instead of working at McDs. For me, it is extremely important that we not lose reading music as a skill.... it is no less important than losing any of the world's languages. I still have (some, small) hope that musicians can agree when nations can't.
Talk is cheap; supply outweighs the demand. Light travels faster than sound, that's why some people look bright before you hear them speak. Jerry Jones bought the Dallas Cowboys, Andy Reid owns them!!
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Phoenix
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Re: RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it?
2010/05/19 21:24:26
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passenger57 I use it ALL THE TIME!! I'm old school composer and I have to see the notes as I'm writing. Plus its great to print out a quick part if I have a live player in my studio. I know its basic - but I have to have it for reference. Could it be improved, of course - but for now I just add articulations by hand. If Staff View was removed I'd stop using SONAR. Gotta see my notes man! I use it all the time as well; it's easier for me to spot the errant midi notes when they stand out as a sharp or flat that shouldn't be there. I know, the midi filter is supposed to do this, but I need "midi filter for Dummies" I guess (and yes, I RTFM, also, Scott Garrigus' book). So I use staff view as a visual aide. I wouldn't attempt to use it for scoring. But for the sake of quick and easy charts, as passenger57 said, I wish it did do triplets; also, that there was an easy way to change the displayed note value by right-clicking.
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Zenwit
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Re:Staff view - how many users seriously use it?
2010/05/19 23:42:55
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One quick note at the start: I spent $70 on a small Wacom Bamboo pen tablet. It makes working with the staff view a heck of a lot easier and faster than using a mouse. It is also a superior input/edit tool in Midi Event view. That said: I have gotten actual productive use out of the staff view. My daughter plays bassoon in her junior high band. Solo and ensemble contest rolled around. I took her solo piece, with its piano accompaniment, and copied them into Sonar via the staff view. Edited them carefully to be sure they were accurate. Then exported two versions of the file to CD: one with a Dimension Pro bassoon part and piano, the other track with just the piano. She was able to hear exactly what her part sounded like and had the piano track available to practice with. I also hooked up the microphones and recorded her playing along with the piano track. Then played it back so she could hear what she really sounded like. All the other kids went before the judge having played with an accompanist maybe two three times at best. She got a gold medal. She was the only 7th grader in her school to make the Regional level on bassoon. She is now interested in computer music production and is always watching over my shoulder. Hopefully I can keep her interest up and do something with it. That said the Sonar staff view lacked the ability to put expression into the music. The sound was kind of robotic. Also, I had to set up two tracks for the piano: one for treble clef and one for bass clef i.e. left hand and right hand. Maybe I did it the wrong way but I got the output I needed. It seems as though the staff view hasn't been improved at all above an old copy of the original Cakewalk software I had back in the 90's. Sure would have been nice to scan the music in with my cheapo home laser printer/fax/scanner instead of writing it in. 98% of the time I input via microphone, direct in guitar/bass, step sequencer etc..
Sonar Platinum x64 Windows 10 x64 Couple of guitars, a bass, bunch of plugins, not enough time....
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rbowser
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Re:Staff view - how many users seriously use it?
2010/05/19 23:54:16
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"...That said the Sonar staff view lacked the ability to put expression into the music. The sound was kind of robotic. Also, I had to set up two tracks for the piano: one for treble clef and one for bass clef..." If you've ever taken an unquantized MIDI track, maybe even recorded in free time, and looked at it in the Staff View - you will know what true undecipherable chaos looks like. But that's as it should be, because to be strictly notated so music is legible is to be highly quantized. Reverse, if you're putting notes in the Staff View to build a piece, you're making notation that looks proper but can only sound robotic because it is literally squared off, quantized quarter notes, eighth notes, sixteenth notes. That's unavoidable. That's why Finale has gone to such lengths to produce its "Humanizing" function - it takes robotic notation and musses it up so it's more like what live musicians do with music. Treble and Bass clefs for piano--yes, that's the only way it's notated.---- Randy B.
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Susan G
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Re:Staff view - how many users seriously use it?
2010/05/20 00:13:18
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Hi Zenwit- Also, I had to set up two tracks for the piano: one for treble clef and one for bass clef i.e. left hand and right hand. SONAR has separate Treble and Bass clefs available in the layout, but typically you'd use the "Treble/Bass" (aka "Grand Staff") option for Piano. That adds both and joins them automatically. -Susan
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Zenwit
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Re:Staff view - how many users seriously use it?
2010/05/20 00:14:21
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"you will know what true undecipherable chaos looks like" Hey man! That's not chaos that's my composition!  You're right Bowser. I've seen that before and I thought I broke the computer.....
Sonar Platinum x64 Windows 10 x64 Couple of guitars, a bass, bunch of plugins, not enough time....
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Susan G
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Re: RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it?
2010/05/20 00:19:52
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But maybe it's meant for all affordable notation software. Yes, it looks like they were sticking within an "affordable" range. Sibelius Student is there, and Finale's PrintMusic. -Susan
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rbowser
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Re:Staff view - how many users seriously use it?
2010/05/20 00:24:13
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Zenwit "you will know what true undecipherable chaos looks like" Hey man! That's not chaos that's my composition! You're right Bowser. I've seen that before and I thought I broke the computer..... Ha! I remember years ago, 8 in fact, when I was first starting to use Cakewalk, I had Pro Audio 9, and needed to get a print out to a guitarist for a thoroughly written out part he was to record - something that wasn't to be improvised by him. I gave him this Staff View print out that was an incredible mess, with hundreds of tied 16th notes, and hundreds of unnecessary 16th note rests, due to the unquantized real-time recording it was generated from. Serious, studious musician that he was, he took it in stride and actually played it, but Geez -! Neither one of us knew any better than to frickin' quantize what I wanted him to play so he could work from charts that made sense, with proper quarter notes, eighth notes. Funny. Since then, I've made acceptable print outs for singers from the Staff View. They aren't charts ready for the publishers, but they've made perfect sense to the singers and do the job just fine. Nice to not have to re-do work in Sibelius (which I sometimes use) - why make beautiful charts unless it's for publishing? Ever seen pro charts used in Broadway shows? Omg!---totally sloppy. Randy
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Susan G
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Re: RE: Staff view - how many users seriously use it?
2010/05/20 00:29:29
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I definitely agree that the Staff View as-is is better than no SV at all. I still use it for some things, and would hate to lose it altogether. I really don't think there's any danger of CW getting rid of it completely, but it's very hard to guess what the plans for its improvement might be, if any. It's been at least a couple years now since Alex Westner made some encouraging noises about it. -Susan
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ronboy
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Re:Staff view - how many users seriously use it?
2010/05/20 01:59:17
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Staff view is junk and has always being junk since the Pro Audio days. I gave up on it long ago and decided to use Cubase and now Finale 2008, Print Music 2006/2007. I would be nice to have a better staff view/score editor in Sonar but I think most Cakewalk users don't read music so that's why Cakewalk doesn't develope it more! You can still create music without reading music! I happen to read and arrange music by notation. When I have to I'll use Cubase 4 or Finale.
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