Jonbouy
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/06 17:48:28
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Jonbouy ... just give up and go record something and forget the rest of the world. It's over man. It's really all over. Not for as long as I can enjoy a good rant it ain't... 
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Bub 
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/06 17:54:43
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Jonbouy
Jonbouy ... just give up and go record something and forget the rest of the world. It's over man. It's really all over. Not for as long as I can enjoy a good rant it ain't...
:)
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Jonbouy
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/06 18:13:11
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And another thing.... 
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Jonbouy
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/06 18:14:27
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OK I fired up my DAW, what do I have to do now? I know, I have 8.5 I can customize all the colours.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/12/06 18:15:30
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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zungle
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/06 18:16:12
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post edited by zungle - 2013/02/26 01:42:51
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Jonbouy
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/06 18:22:18
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zungle
The store does have certain client which I enjoy.
Accountants?... It's like everyone used to say Mucky D's was responsible for the destruction of the environment. Everytime I've been in one of those places though it's seemed clean, pleasantly decorated, had some light music and was air-conditioned. I never saw what they were on about.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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bapu
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/06 18:34:18
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Jonbouy
It's like everyone used to say Mucky D's was responsible for the destruction of the environment.
....... I never saw what they were on about.
The food?
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bapu
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/06 18:35:50
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Jonbouy
Jonbouy ... just give up and go record something and forget the rest of the world. It's over man. It's really all over.
Not for as long as I can enjoy a good rant it ain't...
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bapu
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/06 18:37:26
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Jonbouy
OK I fired up my DAW, what do I have to do now?
I know, I have 8.5 I can customize all the colours.
 <-----NOT!!!!
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paulo
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/06 18:48:26
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Jonbouy
It's quite simple really global companies should pay a national premium to operate a territory where they know they are going to make money, a percentage.
But the rules say that they don't have to - how is that their fault?
What would happen if they all said no and major league employers like Nissan, Toyota, Honda etc took their factories and jobs elsewhere - would that make us better off or would we have thousands more on benefits "through no fault of their own" ?
Yes people exploit loopholes in the tax system it doesn't make them fair.
I didn't say I thought it was fair, or that I agreed with it, just that they have acted within the rules, so blame the rules not those that operate according to them.
As for the employment issue isn't it just a statistical difference between being paid peanuts by a firm like this when there are no jobs that provide real opportunities and provide these companies with greater margins when they can exploit the emotional response of taking them off the unemployment figures.
If they get their peanuts from Starbucks it means they're not taking them from the state. Fine by me.
Simple fair play shouldn't be a difficult ideal to aim at, for builder, account or multi-national alike.
Isn't fair play usually defined as playing by the rules then ?
If you were to believe popular media as your comments about the contribution they make toward employment would suggest you do,
I don't need the media to tell me what my opinion is, I am capable of forming my own ;)
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Jonbouy
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/06 19:24:17
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I didn't say the current corportation tax setup was Starbucks fault. They themselves are offering 4% of their turnover as a good-will gesture after seeing the bad publicity might affect their bottom line. A similar percentage might be borne in mind as a minimum for multi-nationals to operate here. It's obviously a reasonable enough figure for Starbucks not to want to pack up and go home as it's a figure they've now volunteered. Likewise I would expect British companies to contribute similarly to the economies they operate in. I think you'll find the Nissan, Toyota, Honda et al all pay corporation tax currently. I am blaming the rules as well as those knowingly taking advantage of them when to do so is clearly damaging for all of us that are 'in this together'. Society currently would think that Joe Bloggs painter and decorator is doing what every 'good bloke' should be doing yet pointing a finger at the single mother pushing a pram purchased through a DSS crisis loan (which she'll have to pay back) in order to pick up her housing benefit. We don't get to hear that Joe Bloggs is actually the childs Father and not doing HIS duty as a parent either. Yup we all know what the rules are and we also know when we are bending them or taking advantage. Toe rags exist throughout society's different strata they are not all accumulated at the bottom I would say it's likely that the percentage is pretty much constant throughout. Human nature seems pretty much immune to good or bad fortune. Watch when more and more multi-nationals start to migrate in from the Orient you'll see the rules on corporation taxes change all too quickly then I'll wager.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/12/06 19:56:13
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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SongCraft
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/06 19:32:15
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zungle
Sorry guys,
I personally like our Star Bucks.
Hey that's OK, no need to say sorry, it's not like I saw your fist punch through the monitor to rip our fricken heads off, ya' it's OK man, it's all good. I know friends who get their regular fix at Starbucks, but they know I much prefer to roll my own :)
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sharke
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/06 19:53:19
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I really don't mind Starbucks. People always come out with the "$6 for a cup of Joe, you have o be kidding" line but come on, a regular cup of normal Starbucks coffee is $2. Yes that's 50-75 cents more than a cup from the deli or bodega but believe me, here in New York bodega coffee is undrinkable. Starbucks isn't "luxury" coffee, it's just "decent." The $6 drinks are the large, fancy choca-mocha-skinny caramel whipped cream vanilla latte crap that chicks buy.
As for their business ethics, don't really have a problem with anyone minimizing their tax liabilities, as long as it's legal. Everyone who owns/works at Starbucks is paying income tax at the usual rate. They give more to society than they take. They're providing jobs and stimulating the economy. Sure they could pay their employees more, but then you'd pay more for a cup of coffee and that extra money would be diverted from the revenues of other businesses, who also employ people.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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jbow
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/06 19:57:07
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They are WAY overpriced. Perhaps they should fold their tent in GB and move everything to Deutchland? Really, you cannot blame any business for taking advantage of any loophole in any tax law. They are there to maximize profits. Someone needs to fix the law.... simple! Then the cup of coffee will be 8 quid. J
Sonar Platinum Studiocat Pro 16G RAM (some bells and whistles) HP Pavilion dm4 1165-dx (i5)-8G RAM Octa-Capture KRK Rokit-8s MIDI keyboards... Control Pad mics. I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
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jbow
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/06 20:00:31
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I make a pot of Chock Full 'O Nuts New York Blend every morning... sometimes I manage to find some Kenya AA and buy some of that. If I go to Starbucks I get a doppio... yum!
J
Sonar Platinum Studiocat Pro 16G RAM (some bells and whistles) HP Pavilion dm4 1165-dx (i5)-8G RAM Octa-Capture KRK Rokit-8s MIDI keyboards... Control Pad mics. I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
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Jonbouy
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/06 20:32:51
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bapu
Jonbouy
It's like everyone used to say Mucky D's was responsible for the destruction of the environment.
....... I never saw what they were on about.
The food?
It's not McD's fault that people like to line up to eat ....!
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Wood67
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/07 05:21:10
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Yes but...
The reason SB and other multi's have 'not' paid tax in the UK is because the rate of corporation tax is lower in other places. And current law allows for them to register offshore. Personally I don't see any particular problem with this - it's not illegal, and as an investor in the company I would expect them to make the most effective use of my money. That's good effecicient accounting practice imo, and allows the company to invest in its growth and long term future rather than handing it to a bunch of people who have a track record of fiscal mismanagement, driven mainly by the need to secure your vote next time.
This is one of the reasons Osbourne announced a further reduction in Corporation Tax this week. That will firstly encourage more companies to pay tax through the system locally by registering in the UK, and also by extension increase the level of local employment. Don't forget, all those employees they hire mean that SB are still paying employer NI contributions for them here as well.
Oh, of course once they start paying a greater tax burden here, those cups of Americano will go up another 10p. So everyone will then complain and blame even more.
Wood Studio One 3 Pro, (Sonar Platinum), Intel i7, Win10 Pro, 32Gb ram, RME Babyface Pro, Behringer X-Touch, Presonus Faderport, Akai MPK49, Arturia KeyLab25, KRK Rokit 5 monitors, and other sonic surprises.
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jamesg1213
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/07 07:55:19
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Thermos and a jar of Alta Rica, that's me. £3 lasts me about 2 weeks. 
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/07 08:03:27
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Jonbouy
750 outlets in the UK and they make £0 profit here?
At least that's what they tell the tax man in order not to pay a penny in corporation tax.
These people more than the unfortunates that often get the finger pointed at them for not contributing are the true leeches on society.
Oh, and now they've suddenly found a £10m contribution following a public outcry.
We're all being told to tighten our individual belts while multi-national corporates go around exploiting what little is left and answer to nobody but themselves with a little creative accounting.
I get a bitter after taste from that stuff, not for me thanks.
While I've got no truck with Starbucks or any of the other multi nationals I really think the problem is the system that allows this to happen legally, that's the real issue. It's okay the government bleating on about it being immoral - IMHO it is, I couldn't agree more. Trouble is I can't fix it, they can and so they should. I'm off to burn my tax return.
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Jonbouy
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/07 08:06:29
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FastBikerBoy
Jonbouy
750 outlets in the UK and they make £0 profit here?
At least that's what they tell the tax man in order not to pay a penny in corporation tax.
These people more than the unfortunates that often get the finger pointed at them for not contributing are the true leeches on society.
Oh, and now they've suddenly found a £10m contribution following a public outcry.
We're all being told to tighten our individual belts while multi-national corporates go around exploiting what little is left and answer to nobody but themselves with a little creative accounting.
I get a bitter after taste from that stuff, not for me thanks.
While I've got no truck with Starbucks or any of the other multi nationals I really think the problem is the system that allows this to happen legally, that's the real issue. It's okay the government bleating on about it being immoral - IMHO it is, I couldn't agree more. Trouble is I can't fix it, they can and so they should. I'm off to burn my tax return. Simple and practical. I like this post.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/07 08:10:40
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I stopped drinking the Starbux stuff.... not over any sort of protest or anything, or the fact that they support left wing ideas.... nope, I could care less about that. I just have not felt like drinking coffee as much. One cup in the Am..... perhaps a cup after dinner..... that suits me fine. Now I hear they are marketing a $7 cup of joe.... hummm... might have to spring $7 just one time to see if it's worth it. I hear that there is a brand of coffee that costs several hundred dollars a pound. Some sort of bird eats the beans.... poops them out, and some poor schmuck picks them out of the poo and cleans them off, roasts them and sells them at a huge profit. They are supposed to be the best tasting beans because they have passed through that bird's digestive tract. As far as Starbux showing $0 profit.... yep, I'm totally down with that. I run a company here in the good old US of A and every year... for 21 years now, my company has shown no profit. As long as the company spends every dollar it makes on something that is tax deductible which the feds consider to be a legitimate business expense..... it's all good. That money goes into my pocket (figuratively) and gets taxed and spent... so no harm no foul. The laws are set up that way to allow that, and every business can exploit the laws to their advantage, just like an individual does when they take the deductions and exemptions allowed under law. Right now...as it happens to be morning.... I am finishing my one and only cup of Folgers coffee..... good to the last drop... Oh yeah.... saw a taste test comparison.... cup A and cup B... please sir or madam, tell us what you think... which one is better.... all sorts of folks testing... oh yes, "A" is the richer flavored, tastes more "beany".... cup "B" is the more fulfilling taste....... so it went for 6 different people.... along comes a biker looking dude..... tastes both..looks at the camera and says "they both taste the same to me". Turns out it was the same exact coffee, from the same pot in each.... so I'm maybe rethinking that $7 cup of joe.
post edited by Guitarhacker - 2012/12/07 08:15:23
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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Jonbouy
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/07 08:51:47
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Wood67
Yes but...
The reason SB and other multi's have 'not' paid tax in the UK is because the rate of corporation tax is lower in other places. And current law allows for them to register offshore. Personally I don't see any particular problem with this - it's not illegal, and as an investor in the company I would expect them to make the most effective use of my money. That's good effecicient accounting practice imo, and allows the company to invest in its growth and long term future rather than handing it to a bunch of people who have a track record of fiscal mismanagement, driven mainly by the need to secure your vote next time.
This is one of the reasons Osbourne announced a further reduction in Corporation Tax this week. That will firstly encourage more companies to pay tax through the system locally by registering in the UK, and also by extension increase the level of local employment. Don't forget, all those employees they hire mean that SB are still paying employer NI contributions for them here as well.
Oh, of course once they start paying a greater tax burden here, those cups of Americano will go up another 10p. So everyone will then complain and blame even more.
It's exactly what I'm saying. The way corporation tax is setup currently it benefits nobody, even if they drop the rate businesses will still contribute 0 to the economy when they can declare their profits in a territory where the tax rate is unrealistically low because it is some principality that is deriving it's entire income from offering ridiculous rates. Corporation tax doesn't work when somebody can offset their property acquisitions against their turnover and claim a zero balance, plain and simple. A simple operating commision for turnover on this territory doesn't have to be prohibitive for business in fact it could be more attractive to know up front what the operating costs here are going to be in relation to turnover. It would ensure business pay something for the priviledge of operating here, it must be worth their while otherwise they wouldn't be here, it could be much less on paper than a tax that is easy to avoid and guarantees some payment from multi-nationals that we wouldn't otherwise see because it all ends up in the coffers of some principality that doesn't have the complex economy that we have to take care of. So what if Starbucks customers have to pay 10p more to pose underneath the green logo? It might make them believe they are even more exclusive and increase sales. As more and more international corporations grow bigger than national governments this is going to become a bigger issue and ultimately one that will need addressing on an international level, but someone has got to make a start that works somewhere.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2012/12/07 08:59:23
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Jonbouy
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/07 09:01:07
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OK I'm done. 
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Bub
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/07 10:04:37
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$1 for McDonald's 20oz coffee (Large).
I'm a big coffee drinker. Besides making it in an aluminum percolator pot over an open fire, McDonald's is one of the best coffee's I've ever had.
I used to get coffee at a local 'gourmet' coffee shop up in Ia. It was very expensive, but I felt I should pay it since I leeched off his free WiFi extensively. This guy knew his coffee. Barrels of different beans, all imported and ground right in front of you. It smelled incredible in there.
One time in the dead of winter, it was -18F and a water main broke. He went to the local Culligan Man store and bought a truck load of bottled water and he was the only coffee shop open in town.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Ham N Egz
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/07 10:24:43
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Bub
$1 for McDonald's 20oz coffee (Large).
I'm a big coffee drinker. Besides making it in an aluminum percolator pot over an open fire, McDonald's is one of the best coffee's I've ever had.
I used to get coffee at a local 'gourmet' coffee shop up in Ia. It was very expensive, but I felt I should pay it since I leeched off his free WiFi extensively. This guy knew his coffee. Barrels of different beans, all imported and ground right in front of you. It smelled incredible in there.
One time in the dead of winter, it was -18F and a water main broke. He went to the local Culligan Man store and bought a truck load of bottled water and he was the only coffee shop open in town.
And hd he wanted to charge $10 a cup he would have gotten it... although maybe there a preice gouging laws up there in times of natural disasters?
Green Acres is the place to be I dont twitter, facebook, snapchat, instagram,linkedin,tumble,pinterest,flick, blah blah,lets have an old fashioned conversation!
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Wood67
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/07 10:33:15
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OK I'm done. Good topic though, and I agree with your points above, if not the original statement. But it's hard enough getting global agreement on technical standards (PAL/NICAM etc?), let alone cross border tax arrangements. Besides, can you imagine the EU boys driving a genuinely beneficial tax strategy that doesn't conclude with £200 bottles of wine with all their meals? Sounds really selfish, but I'll probably just sit quietly at home and record some midi...
Wood Studio One 3 Pro, (Sonar Platinum), Intel i7, Win10 Pro, 32Gb ram, RME Babyface Pro, Behringer X-Touch, Presonus Faderport, Akai MPK49, Arturia KeyLab25, KRK Rokit 5 monitors, and other sonic surprises.
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Bub
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/07 10:47:49
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Guitarhacker
... for 21 years now, my company has shown no profit. As long as the company spends every dollar it makes on something that is tax deductible which the feds consider to be a legitimate business expense.....
That's so wrong, but that's how it works, and I can't say I wouldn't take advantage of every legal tax incentive I could if I owned my own business. Here's another example ... lets say, for example, you have the house you live in down as a business address. You want to update the kitchen so you go ahead, but it's technically part of your business ... so it's a write off. All perfectly legal. Technically. I know folks who have never technically owned anything, but they've been in business for 30 years, drive a brand new car every year (one for the wife, one for the hubby, one for each kid), live in million dollar homes that are paid for ... all the time showing they make $20,000 a year. Edit: I know one lady who fits this exact description who is on government assistance and drives a Cadillac Escalade. I'm not making this up for shock value, it's the truth. And who ends up paying for it really? Not judging anyone or anything like that, I would do it myself if I owned my own business, but deep in my heart I know it's not right, law or no law. My brother and I used to get in to it when I worked for him when I hinted at a raise every 4 years. He'd always use the line, "You take home more money a year than I do." Right, I did, but I paid taxes on it, he didn't. I'd be happy with $20,000 a year non-taxable income ... after all my living expenses (house, cars, health insurance, groceries, utilities, repairs ... etc etc) were paid for through the business as a 'business expense' and all I had to piss away my $20G on was personal leisure items. Oh well, time for my second cup of coffee. :-)
post edited by Bub - 2012/12/07 11:08:53
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Bub
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/07 10:52:39
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musicman100
Bub
$1 for McDonald's 20oz coffee (Large).
I'm a big coffee drinker. Besides making it in an aluminum percolator pot over an open fire, McDonald's is one of the best coffee's I've ever had.
I used to get coffee at a local 'gourmet' coffee shop up in Ia. It was very expensive, but I felt I should pay it since I leeched off his free WiFi extensively. This guy knew his coffee. Barrels of different beans, all imported and ground right in front of you. It smelled incredible in there.
One time in the dead of winter, it was -18F and a water main broke. He went to the local Culligan Man store and bought a truck load of bottled water and he was the only coffee shop open in town.
And hd he wanted to charge $10 a cup he would have gotten it...
although maybe there a preice gouging laws up there in times of natural disasters?
I'm sure he could have but he didn't. He was a nice guy and I got to know him pretty well. When I lost my job, I used to go there a lot to get on the net to look for work. I couldn't get net access where I lived out in the country.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Beagle
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/07 11:09:40
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I like coffee.
and forum monkeys.
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Ham N Egz
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Re:Starbucks anyone?
2012/12/07 11:32:28
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Beagle
I like coffee.
and forum monkeys.
and bad puns?
Green Acres is the place to be I dont twitter, facebook, snapchat, instagram,linkedin,tumble,pinterest,flick, blah blah,lets have an old fashioned conversation!
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