Anderton
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/05 12:30:59
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☄ Helpfulby jbow 2014/09/01 16:13:15
smallstonefan
There are some good perspectives here...
Wow, your post really nailed it. A perfect summary of the situation. One thing I'd like to emphasize is that Cakewalk's future is no longer in doubt. Gibson is very committed to this venture, and Heny J has been generous in letting me spend time on Cakewalk given everything that needs to be done around here. What I like most about Cakewalk is that it's populated by people who are basically just like the rest of us in these forums. There are definite benefits when the people calling the shots depend on their own products 
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smallstonefan
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/05 17:52:35
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Thanks Craig. This is something I eat, sleep and breath everyday.
We're all in this together. :)
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Blades
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/05 22:04:30
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All I have to input here at the moment is regarding "the 70 bugs". That's 70 bugs that have threads here. Do you have access to the problem reporting system at Cakewalk? I have to imagine that the total number of Sonar users is nowhere near represented here on the forum. That 70 bugs list is definitely important, but probably about as representative of the whole of Sonar users as the forum user-base is. I'd be willing to bet that there are quite a number of bugs outside of this list, some of which might be show stoppers that haven't been pointed out here and many more that are "irrelevant" to most users (which will piss off the ones who reported them and "need" them to be fixed or their lives can't go on).
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Splat 
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/05 22:46:27
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I certainly won't disagree with most of that. There is no way the forums list could be any way near as comprehensive as Cakewalks. However I suspect if there were serious issues that haven't been fixed yet they would have easily made their way onto the forum list by now. Forum noise is generally an extremely good indicator of a showstopper and I'd be extremely surprised if a serious issue wouldn't be commented about in these forums considering how long the product has been out. Priority is of course always in Cakewalks hands as it should be.
post edited by CakeAlexS - 2014/08/05 22:53:16
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stevec
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/06 09:02:59
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I've heard rumours (sp!) that many CW users never frequent or even visit these forums at all. So in their case an issue may never show up here. Shame though IMHO - it's such a great resource and community.
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Anderton
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/06 09:52:28
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The forum is a good place to seek confirmation of bugs for two reasons - think of how many times someone has thought there was a bug, only to find out it was pilot error or some system issue, or the reverse when people find a bug and others can confirm and reproduce. However, the #1 way to deal with bugs and the only one that expedites the fixing process is to enter them into the company's bug tracking system. The forum is not a good venue for tracking because it doesn't "connect" to the bug-tracking world within Cakewalk.
Forum "noise" is helpful from an anecdotal standpoint, but if the people at Cakewalk think a bug is serious and needs to be fixed, they will do so regardless of whether people complain about it. Also bugs can be tricky. I found one seemingly very minor bug that I would never have complained about because it seemed trivial. But I entered it into the system, Noel checked it out, and he found that it actually was a manifestation of a more serious bug that was not minor. So, it went through the system and was fixed. By doing so, it fixed some other issues as well.
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Karyn
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/06 10:50:59
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Anderton. I found one seemingly very minor bug that I would never have complained about because it seemed trivial. But I entered it into the system, Noel checked it out, and he found that it actually was a manifestation of a more serious bug that was not minor.
There is no such thing as a minor or trivial bug. A bug is a bug. Whether its a typo in the code that compiles correctly but gives the wrong results, or the programmer simply getting something wrong. Why is there no such thing as a minor bug? As Craig pointed out, some bugs can be the manifestation of other bugs. Fix one and you fix several other things by default. But leave in what you think is a "minor" bug that nobody is bothered about because there are 35 officially posted workarounds, half of which are easier to use than the original feature, and you're laying the foundation for disaster in future releases where new features rely on the output of the old code which has a "minor" bug. The new feature may work perfectly and be totally bug free, but in certain circumstances which may or may not be life changing the old "minor" bug rears its head and the new feature doesn't work.. Everyone reports the new feature doesn't work, crashes their system, drives away their clients, abducted their children, etc, etc. The devs spend weeks going through the code and can't find anything wrong. Because there is nothing wrong... It's an old "minor" bug from 3 releases ago that was deemed to trivial to fix... If you're going to release code, do your best to make sure there are no mistakes in it. When bugs are reported, FIX THEM.
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Splat
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/06 14:23:57
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Traditionally bugs are measured in terms of impact and severity. From that info they may be triaged i.e. Trivial, minor, major, showstopper. However often developers get involved in the decision making process in a major way and quite often only the quick fixes get fixed which only suits the developer because they are viewed as the boss. I've seen this happen with my own eyes many times.
This is clearly not happening under Gibson/Cake you just need to look at the service pack release notes and look at the success of X3E. However it may have happened in the past under previous management (pure speculation).
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/06 14:25:21
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In a perfect world with unlimited funding, there would still be bugs.
It's all a compromise. Even with well over 90% market share, Windows has all kinds of bugs, some of which have been around for quite a long time.
Cakewalk does a pretty good job of creating and releasing hot fixes for identified 'show stoppers', and generally release several sets of maintenance - sometimes with additional features. Major work tends to get rolled into the next full release.
I believe there are indeed multiple levels of severity of bugs, from annoyances to show stoppers, in terms of the effects those bugs have on the user base. There are also different levels of maintenance required to address each bug. What may seem like it should be a trivial fix can actually be a coding nightmare, where logic for the correction has to also take into account working around bugs in things like Windows, which greatly complicate things.
Bugs also differ greatly in the level of impact to the user base, and that too has to be taken into account, when choosing what to apply development funds and folks to, for a given release.
In the end, some number of bugs will get fixed, some will not, and some new ones will get introduced with the inclusion of added features. It is the reality of software and development.
Bob Bone
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KyRo
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/06 16:23:37
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Hey all,
Well I had to miss out on the sale, unfortunately. But thank you for all the input and lively discourse anyway.
Guess I'll just have to make due with X2 'til either I can scrounge up enough extra funds for the standard upgrade price, or another big sale rolls around...
Thanks again, guys.
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Splat
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/06 16:28:51
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dimelives1
Hey all,
Well I had to miss out on the sale, unfortunately. But thank you for all the input and lively discourse anyway.
Guess I'll just have to make due with X2 'til either I can scrounge up enough extra funds for the standard upgrade price, or another 50%-off sale rolls around...
Thanks again, guys.
You might change your mind when X4 comes out big time :). I might have to sell my soul (what's left of it). Cheers... :)
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stevec
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/06 17:36:29
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robert_e_bone
In the end, some number of bugs will get fixed, some will not, and some new ones will get introduced with the inclusion of added features. It is the reality of software and development.
Yeah... that about sums it up! Real life in the world of software development.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/06 18:05:48
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At the same time, the current release of X3e is FABULOUS, in terms of being feature rich and stable, so hat's off to the Bakers for the state of where things are, while we eagerly await more goodies.
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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Splat
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/06 18:13:58
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Anderton
The forum is a good place to seek confirmation of bugs for two reasons - think of how many times someone has thought there was a bug, only to find out it was pilot error or some system issue, or the reverse when people find a bug and others can confirm and reproduce. However, the #1 way to deal with bugs and the only one that expedites the fixing process is to enter them into the company's bug tracking system. The forum is not a good venue for tracking because it doesn't "connect" to the bug-tracking world within Cakewalk.
Forum "noise" is helpful from an anecdotal standpoint, but if the people at Cakewalk think a bug is serious and needs to be fixed, they will do so regardless of whether people complain about it. Also bugs can be tricky. I found one seemingly very minor bug that I would never have complained about because it seemed trivial. But I entered it into the system, Noel checked it out, and he found that it actually was a manifestation of a more serious bug that was not minor. So, it went through the system and was fixed. By doing so, it fixed some other issues as well.
I agree with the points. However to be more specific the list of bugs I compiled here have the following criteria: 1) Bugs must be easily reproducible via clear steps and be validated by other forums members. 2) An issue must be logged in the Cakewalk problem reporter, and an issue number is quoted* * The only exception so far has been this issue where it seemed to be "logged" via the forums (although there was no actual confirmation of this via Cakewalk) rather than through the usual process. BTW when I mean forum noise/showstopper - well remember the 64 bit precision engine thing, that was pretty clear...
Cheers... {Edited to remove the word "showstopper" as that could be debatable in that specific instance}
post edited by CakeAlexS - 2014/08/06 18:30:00
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mmorgan
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/06 18:16:16
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X3 really has been a terrific release...along with the subsequent patch issues. Good job!
Regards,
Mike Win8(64), Sonar X3e(64) w/ RME Fireface UFX.
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michaelhanson
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/06 19:21:11
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Agree with Michael, X3 has been a terrific release. I can't wait for X4.
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bapu
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/06 21:08:29
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Bapu: What's X4?
Alex: 4 A Good Thyme?
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bapu
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/06 21:09:31
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You know, how the English speel everoury thing wroung?
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Splat
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/06 21:47:07
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bapu
Bapu: What's X4?
Alex: 4 A Good Thyme?
It's like X3 but 1 better.
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TerraSin
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/07 07:57:21
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AndertonOne thing I'd like to emphasize is that Cakewalk's future is no longer in doubt. Gibson is very committed to this venture, and Heny J has been generous in letting me spend time on Cakewalk given everything that needs to be done around here. And this is the biggest nail that needed hit with X3 and has been done fantastically. I almost threw in the towel after the mess that X2 was and was literally seconds away from moving to another DAW till I saw the changes being made in X3. Now I couldn't be happier. We're getting regular updates and seems Cake is actually listening to us on many of the issues we've been having. I'm not sure who lit the fire under their butts but I hope this trend continues with X4 and beyond because I can see more and more users moving the way of Sonar if it does. Being the first major contender on Steam was also a big plus. I would love to know how many new Sonar/MC users there are from selling on there. Suddenly a lot more people know what Sonar is. :)
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Razorwit
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/07 09:45:05
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Anderton
whereas hearing silence if you solo a bus with an external insert probably isn't as big a deal.
Hey...it's sorta a big deal to me...  Then again I reported it, and I use lots of external hardware. I understand that most folks don't and Cake has to prioritize, but sheesh, that bug had to be the negative example? You couldn't have gone with something super obscure like the bug that makes Sonar turn into a werewolf on one full moon every thousand years and devour a peasant village? Just sayin...let me keep a bit of hope... Or at least let a brother down easy... Disclaimer: since tonal and non-verbal cues don't work on the interwebs, I'm mostly kidding here...I hope it gets fixed, but there are workarounds. Dean
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Anderton
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/07 10:41:26
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TerraSin
I'm not sure who lit the fire under their butts but I hope this trend continues with X4 and beyond because I can see more and more users moving the way of Sonar if it does. Actually, Cakewalk lit their own fire. Roland is a smart and innovative company, but the combination just didn't seem to be the right fit. Gibson is the right fit, and that makes a huge difference. I've appreciated Cakewalk for a long time, and have lots of friends there. When Gibson was looking into the acquisition, I had to ask myself whether this would be the right thing for Cakewalk or whether there could be a better option. After running down the list of companies in this industry, I really couldn't come up with a better partner than Gibson. Fortunately everyone agreed . Being the first major contender on Steam was also a big plus. I would love to know how many new Sonar/MC users there are from selling on there. Suddenly a lot more people know what Sonar is. :)
What with being used to score Call of Duty, SONAR is starting to become to game developers what Pro Tools is to Hollywood film composers. We are picking up new users, but we need to pick up more...venues like Steam help a lot. I thought Cakewalk going in that direction was a brilliant move. I made the analogy before that X1 was a toddler, X2 the troublesome but promising teenager, and X3 is the freshman college student soaking up knowledge and getting really good grades. I think that story arc will continue for a while...I'm wondering what Sonar's post-doctoral thesis is going to look like!
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Anderton
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/07 10:43:14
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Razorwit
Anderton
whereas hearing silence if you solo a bus with an external insert probably isn't as big a deal.
Hey...it's sorta a big deal to me...
Then again I reported it, and I use lots of external hardware. I understand that most folks don't and Cake has to prioritize, but sheesh, that bug had to be the negative example? You couldn't have gone with something super obscure like the bug that makes Sonar turn into a werewolf on one full moon every thousand years and devour a peasant village?
Just sayin...let me keep a bit of hope...
Or at least let a brother down easy...
Disclaimer: since tonal and non-verbal cues don't work on the interwebs, I'm mostly kidding here...I hope it gets fixed, but there are workarounds.
Dean
I don't know what bugs are or are not prioritized, but if it was reported, it's in the queue...
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Razorwit
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/07 11:40:45
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Anderton
Razorwit
You couldn't have gone with something super obscure like the bug that makes Sonar turn into a werewolf on one full moon every thousand years and devour a peasant village?
I don't know what bugs are or are not prioritized, but if it was reported, it's in the queue...
I'm going to take Craig's lack of denial about the werewolf bug as a tacit admission that the bug exists! I demand to know what other lycanthropsy-related bugs are in the code! Wait...unless...Craig is one of them! Craig is a werewolf! It all makes sense now... Dean
Intel Core i7; 32GB RAM; Win10 Pro x64;RME HDSPe MADI FX; Orion 32 and Lynx Aurora 16; Mics and other stuff...
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Anderton
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/07 11:55:37
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Razorwit
I'm going to take Craig's lack of denial about the werewolf bug as a tacit admission that the bug exists! I demand to know what other lycanthropsy-related bugs are in the code!
Well, we have to be very careful about how we handle this. We're finding out that it's reproducible, but reproducing it in order to analyze it is destroying a lot of peasant villages.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/07 12:51:59
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Some additional fallout from the loss of peasant villages, is the world was subjected to a refugee from one of these lost villages - his name? Borat.
At least his sister is still OK :)
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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mmorgan
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/07 12:55:33
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Anderton
Razorwit
I'm going to take Craig's lack of denial about the werewolf bug as a tacit admission that the bug exists! I demand to know what other lycanthropsy-related bugs are in the code!
Well, we have to be very careful about how we handle this. We're finding out that it's reproducible, but reproducing it in order to analyze it is destroying a lot of peasant villages.
Get lots of silver bullets. Simples.
Mike Win8(64), Sonar X3e(64) w/ RME Fireface UFX.
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musec03
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/07 15:43:04
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I'm still getting used to X3e
ASUS G10AJ, WIN 8.1 Home Premium 64 bit, Intel Core i73610QM, 32gb RAM, NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660M, Presonus Studio 192
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/07 16:13:10
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musec03
I'm still getting used to X3e
Yeah, but at least your hair goes with the dress color. :) Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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Splat
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Re: Status of X4? (Confirmed or Suspected)
2014/08/07 19:19:54
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Anderton
whereas hearing silence if you solo a bus with an external insert probably isn't as big a deal.
Razorwit
Hey...it's sorta a big deal to me...
Then again I reported it, and I use lots of external hardware.
I just twigged. There is a similar situation when using drum maps and solo'ing tracks in track view and console view (but not piano roll). I bet this is related!!
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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