Steinberg Copy Protection Problems

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Jake68
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2005/11/07 09:13:49 (permalink)

Steinberg Copy Protection Problems

Hello Everyone,

If you were worried about the state of Sonar, then take this to heart.

The naughty people at H2o have cracked Steinberg's Syncrosoft Copy Protection on Nuendo 3.1.1.944. In so doing they have revealed the completely over the top approach to protection employed by Steinberg and exactly what impact on performance and stability this has.

At this point I should point out that Nuendo until recently has been faultlessly stable for me. In fact in audio playback or record it has never crashed. Guess what, in audio playback and record is just about the ONLY time multiple dongle calls arent being made.
Users recently including myself disgussed strange problems editing audio and midi. I wonder how a problem as simple as that could creep into the code?
Answer?
Starting the program 375 dongle calls
Moving a midi note, 8 dongle calls. Moving Midi notes continuously, results in constant communication with the dongle, as does moving audio between tracks.

It seems fairly obvious to some of us that this level of protection is causing unpredictable behavior in the latest version. In fact. Steinberg have of course censored and deleted all discussion related to this on their forum. Their action, leaves me no choice but to keep everyone informed.

One of the things that Sonar will ALWAYS have on its side, is both a forward looking intelligent developer, and the lack of draconian and non functional copy protection of this kind.

Have a nice day everyone
#1

35 Replies Related Threads

    LixiSoft
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/07 09:52:37 (permalink)
    Starting the program 375 dongle calls ,Moving a midi note, 8 dongle calls. Moving Midi notes continuously, results in constant communication with the dongle, as does moving audio between tracks.


    LoL......so you installed the H20 emu dongle ? So did you get a more stable system, are Steinberg users reverting to the H20 versions to get their systems stable ?

    LixiSoft
    #2
    NYSR
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/07 09:59:27 (permalink)
    That is rather obsessive compulsive. Once per session at fire up of the host should be sufficient to catch 90% of the hacks.



    Cakewalk customer since Apprentice version 1, PreSonus 16.4.2 ai, 3.5 gHz i7

    #3
    neonknight
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/07 10:13:04 (permalink)
    I was a legit user of Steinberg Cubase SX 3.0 until I have sold it recently...the only good thing about Cubase is that the license can be transferred...I used Sonar more often and I thought I would get rid of Cubase
    plus, the Cubase.net forum is the most disgusting forum of this kind on the net
    The stupid moderators do nothing but lock people's posts, they never bother to actually help someone
    I have my reasons to dislike Steinberg
    Copy protection system that they have come up with is a piece of crap
    A company makes people buy their software by showing respect for their customers, competitive pricing and some other things, none of them being applied by Steinberg
    For this reason, and because Cakewalk has taught me a lesson, I would never use cracked versions of Cakewalk software...I legally own and use Sonar since version 3 and Project 5 V2, and I will definitely buy more stuff, to keep myself happy and to suppor the company, which I would never do for Steinberg ****s

    As for the Nuendo H20 dongle emulator...it works extremely well
    they deserved it, and I hope Steinberg goes out of business, the sooner the better
    ****ers
    Long Live Cakewalk!
    #4
    yep
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/07 10:16:06 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Jake68
    ...Steinberg have of course censored and deleted all discussion related to this on their forum....


    This, to me, was always the biggest problem.

    Yeah, copy-protection sucks. But what's worse is Steinberg's belligerent refusal to put up with suggestions that their product may be problematic. Copy-protection is part of what you bought. The fact that it is bad design is one thing, but bugs and inefficiencies exist in any software. People make the decision to buy it or not for the overall package. That Steinberg will not entertain the possibility that their copy-protection may be causing problems and refuses to even allow discussion of the possibility makes it a lot harder to resolve any kind of problem, even if it's unrelated. Correct trouble-shooting procedure is to start with likely culprits and try and rule them out, one at a time.

    Cakewalk's decision to not use copy-protection is awesome, but what's even more awesome is their openness and willingness to help identify problems, and even to enlist the help of their users. In spite of the fact that this is not an "official" support forum, Cakewalk people have been supremely cool about helping people out and entertaining the possibility that various users may have discovered legitimate bugs.

    This willingness to work with their users helps not only to resolve problems that do exist, but also throws into sharp relief the fact that a lot of the complaints and problems posted are not, in fact, problems or flaws with cakewalk software. I am sure that a lot of the Steinberg "problems" are not related to copy-protection, but without acknowledgement, information, or even discussion it becomes impossible to tell. There's just this black box embedded in the software that you have to take their implicit word for it that it couldn't possibly be the culprit.

    Cheers.
    #5
    neonknight
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/07 10:27:36 (permalink)
    Hey Yep, jp22 might sue you over unauthorised use of his words in your signature!
    #6
    ohhey
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/07 10:32:51 (permalink)
    This also shows that copy protection doesn't work,.. it's been cracked already. There are folks out there that get their entertainment from cracking programs, it's like a video game to them. I used to know a guy that would go out and buy video game software just to find out how the copy protection worked. He didn't even play the game, cracking the copy protection WAS the game for him.. that was high score. After that he would just give the software to one of his friends and go buy another game. Funny thing was he would not buy games that were not copy protected or used a protection he had already cracked LOL !!
    #7
    dbmusic
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/07 12:23:43 (permalink)
    This paranoid, repressive, draconian approach also just breeds contempt and creates an environment where cracking is more appealing.

    I may be occasionally critical of CW but I have great respect for the fact that I CAN be critical in an open and supportive forum. Despite issues, this is one reason why I keep paying for upgrades. I want Sonar to succeed!

    A company that is unwilling to listen and openly discuss issues simply cannot be trusted.

    DB Music

    SoundClick
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    #8
    neonknight
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/07 12:55:41 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: dbmusic

    This paranoid, repressive, draconian approach also just breeds contempt and creates an environment where cracking is more appealing.

    I may be occasionally critical of CW but I have great respect for the fact that I CAN be critical in an open and supportive forum. Despite issues, this is one reason why I keep paying for upgrades. I want Sonar to succeed!

    A company that is unwilling to listen and openly discuss issues simply cannot be trusted.

    amen, short and concise!


    #9
    sandman5000
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/07 14:44:04 (permalink)
    I started out in computers with cubase 5.1. I had no idea about dongels or copy protection. Then sx came out and every one had all these bugs, so I decided to hold out. I was getting tired of Steinbergs snobiness and lack of help (and their forums are populated by a bunch of a-holes). Then, I discovered Sonar. I have not looked back and have been very happy every step of the way. I now refuse to buy any software with convoluted copy protection. It's their privaledge if I buy their software, not mine. Why should legitamete buyers be punished? Thank God for cakewalk.

    So, if it wasn't for Steinbergs ways, I would never have bought Sonar. I, for one, am glad for Steinbergs policies. :)
    #10
    stevec
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/07 15:33:39 (permalink)
    "I could easily give back any minimal dynamics lost compressing with a bit more eq... Shows how much you know!... I do use Compressor(s)/LIMITER(s), but not to control the dynamic range. I use EQ(s) for that."


    I do not and have never used Nuendo, so can't really comment on the topic of this thread. But, I did feel need to post a big to your signature...ah, what a classic thread that was.

    SteveC
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    Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO);
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    #11
    kevo
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/07 15:34:27 (permalink)
    The last Steinberg product I used was Wavelab 2. I had a heck of a time upgrading from version 1.6 to 2.0. Their customer service ( dare I use that term ) was very rude. The final straw for me, was the lack of support for their product... (yes this was a number of years ago...) Didn't take me long to wise up!

    Having the software randomly ask for the original disk was annoying.

    After shelling out several hundred dollars to this company, I decided I was done dealing with nazi's. I didn't care how good the software was...

    I can somewhat understand their attitude about copy protection. But not their lousy attitudes, and poor customer service.

    Here in the US, pirated software is in the single digits. In other parts of the world it ranges from 25 - 75 % of all software is pirated.

    I will not use a piece of software that has any form of hardware protection... period!

    100% of the software I use, I have purchased. I fully believe in supporting the companies that supply products that I use.

    I appreciate that cake treats their customers with respect. You can bet I will gladly give them $179 a year to keep them around. I have an interest in their success, because I use their products on a daily basis.

    Quite frankly, I don't know why Steinberg is still around! People must like being treated badly I guess (shrug)???
    #12
    Jake68
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/07 23:50:44 (permalink)
    I hasten to add, the data I have does not come from my in use DAW!

    Someone I know installed the cracked copy on his laptop and sent me screenshots.
    I am not saying who he is, but he is a Steinberg user as far as I know.

    I also want to add. This IS NOT CONJECTURE. It is FACT.

    Weather or not this causes stability problems is anyones guess. But lets make it an educated guess shall we?

    Good Luck in Sonarland.
    #13
    fgimian
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/08 00:21:12 (permalink)
    hey guys, this is an interesting topic. I myself am not a Sonar user (signed up on the forum when I was inquiring about Sonar). I use Cubase SL3 and it also uses a dongle. I'll be totally honest in saying that I compared the performance of Cubase SL3 with Sonar 4 demo on the site in Windows XP and was stunned at how much more efficient Cubase was. I would get around a 40 % increase in speed on Cubase when using the same amount (and same type) of VST plugins in both hosts.

    I can only imagine how fast it would be without the dongle ! I too hate the dongle and have always considered the move to Sonar (even if it took more CPU power) due to that reason, but without the real native VST support and a built in sample editor, I just can't imagine wanting to move from Cubase. I should say that I considered Sonar mainly due to the copy protection, which I totally commend the developers on ! I don't buy software with anymore than a serial, Cubase was the exception as I couldn't find an alternative that I liked.

    Just thought I'd share my thoughts, no disrespect intended to anyone, Sonar and Cubase do similar things at the end of the day so it's really about what you feel comfortable with :)
    post edited by soundpalace - 2008/09/15 23:53:11
    #14
    BriGuy
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/08 07:06:13 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: yep

    ORIGINAL: Jake68
    ...Steinberg have of course censored and deleted all discussion related to this on their forum....


    This, to me, was always the biggest problem.

    Yeah, copy-protection sucks. But what's worse is Steinberg's belligerent refusal to put up with suggestions that their product may be problematic. Copy-protection is part of what you bought. The fact that it is bad design is one thing, but bugs and inefficiencies exist in any software. People make the decision to buy it or not for the overall package. That Steinberg will not entertain the possibility that their copy-protection may be causing problems and refuses to even allow discussion of the possibility makes it a lot harder to resolve any kind of problem, even if it's unrelated. Correct trouble-shooting procedure is to start with likely culprits and try and rule them out, one at a time.

    Cakewalk's decision to not use copy-protection is awesome, but what's even more awesome is their openness and willingness to help identify problems, and even to enlist the help of their users. In spite of the fact that this is not an "official" support forum, Cakewalk people have been supremely cool about helping people out and entertaining the possibility that various users may have discovered legitimate bugs.




    That's what makes a very successful company

    Intel Q6600 @ 2.4-4Gig Ram
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    Delta 24/96 Audiophile
    Sonar 8.3.1

    #15
    BluerecordingStudios
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/08 07:33:04 (permalink)
    Theres no copy-protection that H2O cannot crack - Steinberg wasting thei time and a lot of money
    #16
    neonknight
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/08 08:08:22 (permalink)
    I have tried those H2O versions out of curiosity...And I believe many of us have done so...
    and yes, it seems that Steinberg are wasting their money with that protection system....as we have already said, there are other ways to convince the people to buy the product..
    look at the price difference between Sonar and Cubase, to give just one example
    but I must say that challenge/response system is not working either
    Ableton Live is cracked every time they release a new version. Does this mean Ableton are losing money? Probably yes, but they still have a huge fan base and a big user community who are loyal to them because Ableton listens to its customers and they have a good relationship
    This is something Steinberg will apparently never learn, and if they dissappera from the market one day, they will have deserved so
    Cakewalk rocks and they will have all support I can give them /a couple of hundred bucks a year, not much, but that's all I can do...and I can spread the word about it which I am constantly doing/
    Now, Cakewalk, where is that Sonar 5 demo???
    I am sure it will be included on a CD with a computer music magazine very soon, but which one?


    #17
    findjammer
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/08 08:37:16 (permalink)
    i think once a program gets so synonomous with music making it can lead to laziness. the number of time i get the question "oh you make music, what do you use? cubase?" cannot be counted. no-one ever mentions sonar, logic or digital performer.

    cubase is like the lowest common denominator when it comes to making music, everyone knows it, and so many people starting out just get it because its the one they've heard everyone talking about.

    the conversation then generally turns into me giving them a sales pitch the "unexplored benefits of sonar", heh heh ...

    i think entropy is creeping into the world of cubase.

    Jammer
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    #18
    findjammer
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/08 08:41:15 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: soundpalace

    hey guys, this is an interesting topic. I myself am not a Sonar user (signed up on the forum when I was inquiring about Sonar). I use Cubase SL3 and it also uses a dongle. I'll be totally honest in saying that I compared the performance of Cubase SL3 with Sonar 4 demo on the site in Windows XP and was stunned at how much more efficient Cubase was. I would get around a 40 % increase in speed on Cubase when using the same amount (and same type) of VST plugins in both hosts.

    Take care
    Fots


    how much time did you spend getting sonar setup to your particular hardware compared to the amount of time you've spent getting cubase setup with your hardware?

    methink this maybe an unfair comparison ...

    Jammer
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    #19
    goat
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/08 09:08:29 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Jake68

    Starting the program 375 dongle calls
    Moving a midi note, 8 dongle calls. Moving Midi notes continuously, results in constant communication with the dongle, as does moving audio between tracks.


    Out of curiosity, is H20 claiming any sort of performance increase? It seems to me that if this dongle emulation is tracking calls, then the program itself is still bogged down by it...or do they claim that their emulation is faster/more stable than an actual dongle?
    #20
    yep
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/08 09:45:42 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: findjammer

    ORIGINAL: soundpalace

    hey guys, this is an interesting topic. I myself am not a Sonar user (signed up on the forum when I was inquiring about Sonar). I use Cubase SL3 and it also uses a dongle. I'll be totally honest in saying that I compared the performance of Cubase SL3 with Sonar 4 demo on the site in Windows XP and was stunned at how much more efficient Cubase was. I would get around a 40 % increase in speed on Cubase when using the same amount (and same type) of VST plugins in both hosts.

    Take care
    Fots


    how much time did you spend getting sonar setup to your particular hardware compared to the amount of time you've spent getting cubase setup with your hardware?

    methink this maybe an unfair comparison ...


    Every plugin is different, and it's not inconceivable that Cubase might do better with some than Sonar. Steinberg developed VST, Cakewalk developed DXi, and wrapped or ported versions are not always identical in terms of performance.

    That said, I think Sonar is pretty well-known for being extremely windows-friendly in terms of performance and stability, and my guess is that soundpalace is either in the minority, or that, as findjammer suggests, his system is somehow more "Cubase-optimized."

    But by all means, use whatever works for you.

    Cheers.
    #21
    neonknight
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/08 10:06:53 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: goat

    ORIGINAL: Jake68

    Starting the program 375 dongle calls
    Moving a midi note, 8 dongle calls. Moving Midi notes continuously, results in constant communication with the dongle, as does moving audio between tracks.


    Out of curiosity, is H20 claiming any sort of performance increase? It seems to me that if this dongle emulation is tracking calls, then the program itself is still bogged down by it...or do they claim that their emulation is faster/more stable than an actual dongle?

    Yes, the H2O guys claim that their versions work better because they don't communicate with the dongle emulator all the time..
    Don't ask me how they achieved this, I have no idea
    But I do know people who have, believe it or not, sold their Cubase licenses and continued to use the cracked versions without any problems
    Very unfair and illegal I must say, but that's up to them



    #22
    Al
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/08 10:08:28 (permalink)
    I'll be totally honest in saying that I compared the performance of Cubase SL3 with Sonar 4 demo on the site in Windows XP and was stunned at how much more efficient Cubase was. I would get around a 40 % increase in speed on Cubase when using the same amount (and same type) of VST plugins in both hosts.


    yep, neon, Blue and findjammer ... no comment on the above ?

    ..going to be a long thread

    Much fun with ours to natural resound! <G>
    #23
    OldGeezer
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/08 10:28:57 (permalink)
    I own Virtual Guitarist Electric edition by Steinberg (lame as auto-accompaniment but great as a raw sampler for custom powerchord rhythms). There is no copy-protection other than the serial number. I went to the store a month or so later to look at Virtual Bassist by Steinberg. The price was not too bad so I was almost gonna pick it up...until I noticed a little label on the box stating that not only is it dongle-protected (that's enough right there), but that I had to purchase the dongle separately for the privilege of installing the software I almost bought!!! Purchase the dongle separately?!!! Are these idiots for real?

    I also bought some Plugsound sampler modules, and couldn't believe it when I installed them and found out I had to get online and activate them like windows!!! A couple of 99 dollar cds and I have to beg some twitching sphincters' permission to use the software I just paid for?!

    And it not just expensive software either....try installing a game like Silent Hunter III by Ubisoft. Apparently, they have no problems sneaking Starforce antipiracy software without warning or your consent, which consist of low-level drivers that hide themselves in device manager (as hardware drivers), mess with your IDE channels, and totally screw up some people's systems, which alot of folks are rightfuly outraged about.

    Every time some idiot devises a new crazy antipiracy scheme, some kid cracks it the next day just to say he did (every time), and everyone gets their free copies. The ONLY people publishers EVER punish by using anything beyond cd checks/serial number registrations are the honest users that pay for their software and support them. Period! If it gets to the point where I need dongles, sleazy background drivers and online activations for everything I buy, then I'll quit buying and join the pirates.

    I'm sick and tired of getting punished for being stupid enough to pay for all my software while the pirates enjoy a hassle-free computer experience.

    In short: Steinberg is begging to suffer from piracy, and they deserve it. Kudos to Cakewalk for not getting assimilated into the idiot-borg.
    #24
    neonknight
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/08 10:29:33 (permalink)
    well, I sold my Cubase 6 months ago, and I never really worked in it so much, so I can't tell
    Another thing I have never done is comparing any of the programs out there...I just sit and do whatever I have to do. And since I am am hobbyist, it would mainly be a drum track, bass track, some keys and some guitars...not many plugins, not many effects, and basically the strain I would put on Sonar could have been endured by any similar application out there..that's why I never complain about CPU problems, RAM problems or anything similar../although I have noticed recently, ever since I purchased Stylus RMX, that if you load Stylus and Sampletank, that's pretty much it...of course, if you have 1 GB of RAM, like I do..../
    So I think I might benefit from the 64 bit technology and the possibilities to have more RAM
    To cut the long story short and to go back to the matter, I think comparing the performance of two applications like Cubase and Sonar should be exercised with more care and attention to detail
    I know that Cubase SL is a stripped down version of the Cubase SX and this could be one of the reasons
    We don't want this to become another Sonar vs Cubase thread, but I have to say once again that Sonar has a great potential for becoming THE choice for many home musicians out there.
    However, they do need to need to do something about their marketing in Europe
    For example, just 5 minutes ago I called the Sonar guy in my town and he said he had no idea when he was going to get Sonar 5...If I go to Roland.be, there is nothing on their site..buying from the US is an option that is too expensive for me at the moment...so here I am, all of you guys are already using Sonar 5, I want to pay for my copy but I can't! I think this is not good for the business...but I will wait, because I am happy with the product and I want to support it
    which I would never do for Steinberg. When I had a question that their moderators didn't want to answer they told me to call my distributor. When I checked the list, the local distributor for Holland was in Sweden???!!!So I have to call Sweden and pay 1 euro a minute to get support? **** that!
    So, no company out there is perfect, but in terms of inefficiency and arrogance, Steinberg beats them all...



    #25
    ohhey
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/08 10:52:33 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: OldGeezer
    .........

    I'm sick and tired of getting punished for being stupid enough to pay for all my software while the pirates enjoy a hassle-free computer experience.

    In short: Steinberg is begging to suffer from piracy, and they deserve it. Kudos to Cakewalk for not getting assimilated into the idiot-borg.


    You make a good point, I think some registered users that paid for their software get tired of being punished and that's the only reason they go looking for a cracked copy. And after they learn where to go and how to do the cracks they stop buying the upgrades. If the software had been easy to use in the first place they would have never gone looking for the cracked version. I'll bet a lot of folks who own a real licensed copy run a cracked version just for the hassle-free experience.
    #26
    John Page
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/08 10:56:10 (permalink)
    In the words of an old forum member Ted Pearlman.............. Support the company buy the software......... protect yourself and use the crack
    #27
    thunderkyss
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/08 10:59:24 (permalink)
    ...hmm. I understand the challenge of attacking copyprotection, but I can't believe these guys are doing it just for the heck of it. My thinking, is that if they can hack a program, a sophisticated protection scheme, then what kinda of nice little trojans can they write to hide on your computer?? Make it part of the install.........How would you know it's there??


    I also heard about companies like SteinBerg, Cakewalk, and who knows who else who put out bogus cracks that are infact viruses, to make people wary of downloading these real cracks.

    I honestly joined the Nuendo Forum a while back, I was asked to consult on a project studio for a friends church..........I was going to suggest Nuendo....but after I spent 2 days on that forum........it's ridiculous. If you don't own Nuendo, they don't want you around. You're not entitled to the intellectual knowledge that is available on that forum, with all the "Pro's" and all.

    #28
    OldGeezer
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/08 11:11:23 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: thunderkyss
    If you don't own Nuendo, they don't want you around. You're not entitled to the intellectual knowledge that is available on that forum, with all the "Pro's" and all.


    Funny, I agree 100% with that. You should not be entitled to an online encyclopdia of knowlege (search feature) much less posting priveleges if you don't own the software. Who needs the manual when all the questions already have answers in the forum? The software forum should be an incentive to own a legal copy, but ends up being the opposite...just like the copy protection madness.

    I've seen some new posters get accused of being pirates by some "rtfm" fanatics in here, and a registered-user-only login would eliminate that altogether. Demo-users can dang-well ask the sales dept for info if the included help-file isn't enough.

    The logic of software distributors confuses me.

    #29
    ohhey
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    RE: Steinberg Copy Protection Problems 2005/11/08 11:46:19 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: John Page

    In the words of an old forum member Ted Pearlman.............. Support the company buy the software......... protect yourself and use the crack


    LOL !! That's a great line. It would be fun to tell the company after paying them for a license you don't need the media or dongle. "No thanks.. mine is working fine, just getting legal.
    #30
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