Stereo Field Width

There is probably a simple solution to my dilemma....

Basically, I want to take a stereo output (either a VSTi or a VST effect) and send the left and right outputs to two different channels.... I think want to pan the two MONO outputs wherever I want to in essence, narrow the stereo field of the output.

In my old studio days, all the desks had mono channel strips and any stereo output device would take 2 channel strips but the benefit of this was I was able to control the width of the stereo field by panning the mono channel strips.

Does anybody know of a way to accomplish this using the SONAR mixer and busses?

Example, I have a stereo delay output and now it sends the output to a stereo track... I can't pan the outputs (left and right) in the track itself and the delays are panned hard right and left by default which is not what I want.. suppose I want the 2 output delays to be panned at 10 and 2 o'clock instead of hard right and left (let's assume that the delay has no panning ability).

Thanks,
Jim

CJ....

I was thinking about using the channel tool but I was hoping that there was a way to split the left and right outputs of a stereo track and send each one to their own MONO buss or something like that because I then want to process each of the outputs with different EQs and COMPs.

Jim

I don't think those will work CJ. By panning a stereo track left or right you are sending the entire stereo left or right. In effect you will end up with two mono signals that have all the stereo data in them but being in mono. You wont have stereo. The channel tools is a good way to deal with this and is what its meant for. I hope I am making this clear.

I want to in essence, narrow the stereo field of the output.

You can bounce the VSTi output to split mono, but the best solution is the one CJ suggested: the Channel Tools plugin works great for narrowing stereo. With it, you can pan left and right channels independently. I use it on almost every stereo track, since SONAR does not have a real stereo pan option.

OK...  So I want to be chorus on the left side stereo drum track output panned at 10 o'clock...  then I want a flanger on the right side stereo drum track panned at 4 o'clock (I know weird example) but still valid... the channel tools won't let me do this....

So, if I make 2 mono busses and insert a send in the drum stereo track, and pan one of the sends hard left and the other hard right, will these sends maintain the stereo field if I pan the MONO BUSSes hard left and right?  If so, then I could pan the mono busses at will to control the width of the stereo field (As CJ is suggesting) but does Sonar in fact only send the left and right signal when the buss send is panned hard left and right?  I think I tried that and it sends both left and right to each send and not just the left channed and right channel of the stereo track....

I will test this again to confirm.

Jim

If the effect is any kind of modulated, chorus, delay, reverb etc there would be big risk of cancelling effects, if starting to mix these together in any other way than original output?

Just getting the mono outs and doing pan separately and then mix, I mean.

Usually sound very boxy and strange.

Or do I miss something in the suggestions here?

mike_mccue: How does that eliminate the problem of phasing and cancelling effects?
 
Once you start overlapping these two mono's you will start doing things that you don't expect,  i.e. getting it sound more like flanging and other effects.

Stereo outputs often do a lot of phasing things to make stereo sound awesome.

You cannot simply start overlapping these channels.

I think it needs to be built into each effect to adjust how wide stereo is to be.

Overlooked very much I think.

I had this problem with B4 organ, where the leslie always go all the way from left to right, which does not always fit so well in a mix. I had to go mono with that instead.

OK... so thanks Mike M for confirming that panning the buss sends hard left and right isolates only the left and right audio in the stereo track....

My example of flanger and chorus was an exaggeration... actually, what I want to do is EQ them differently and the output is really simulated stereo OH mics where I want to bring the width of the stereo field very close together but process them with different EQs and COMPS... and yes, I want to get some phasing (just like I did back in the day of my studio days)... the phasing of the overheads is part of the sound I want to get.. it is very subtle but actually glues the drum tracks together in a unique way and it is mixed very low... you can't hear the effect isolated and it just becomes part of the overall sound (a trick I learned from some master producers in the 70s)...

Thanks all,
Jim

PS - I could swear that when I tried the two send idea, I wasn't get true left and right separation but Mike has done all the hard work for me... thanks again MIKE!!!! Oh and CJ as well for coming up with the original suggestion.

I wouldn't recommend it. Better to keep the DI and mic versions separate mono tracks. Keep in mind that there is more to blending the two than just effects - they also have to phase-aligned.

The reason they are out of phase is because what the mic picks up is slightly behind the DI. Depending on the amp, DI box and mic the two may also be reversed in polarity. There are DI boxes that insert delay compensation and flip polarity, but why spend $200 on a box when all you have to do is zoom in and nudge the clip in SONAR?

Lowline


From what I vaguely recall reading somewhere, Sonars panning isn't true stereo panning but rather just a volume adjustment to the left or right channel depending on what way you pan it.  In which case if you panned hard left you would, as CJ stated, be getting just the left channel.

That's the "normal" case when using "panning" on a stereo track. It works the same way on your car stereo or your home stereo. It's nothing SONAR invented (or did wrong)... 

mike_mccue


But we are still left to scratch our heads wondering how Cakewalk put out 18 versions of a sequencer (a.k.a. 18 years) before they figured out they could offer us an improved way to pan... and then Cakewalk screwed it up by goobering up that thing known as Channel Tools.

Way too much... way to late.

I don't understand what you mean...

Ah Bit... you are a thinking man.... 

I build my sample sets by sampling each string and every fret and then make each string a program within KONTAKT multi... 

This way, a MIDI guitar controller actually triggers the correct sample based upon what string and fret is played... I can play the same E note on two different strings and get both correct samples to play (just like it should from a real guitar)... so, since I am using the MULTI for the entire stringed instrument, having the DI'ed and mic'ed samples as two separate programs makes the multi pretty hard to manage for most folks.

But, I appreciate your approach to the Kontakt programming.  If I knew what I was doing in Kontakt, I think this is doable with SCRIPTS but that is beyond my feeble grey matter.

Jim

jkleban

I want to take a stereo output (either a VSTi or a VST effect) and send the left and right outputs to two different channels.

It's an interesting thread - but that original question was pretty simple.

And CJ had the answer I feel the one that delivered the goods.  It's a nifty thing to bounce to dual mono so you can do exactly the sort of thing jkleban wants to do.

Or you can bounce the stereo track to a dual mono track and take it from there.

rbowser