AnsweredStereo Widening Using Channel Tool's M/S

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razor
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2013/10/17 21:58:32 (permalink)

Stereo Widening Using Channel Tool's M/S

Hello All--
 
I've managed to survive all these years without even knowing about M/S processing, but alas, I've been trying to hone my skills and have read a couple of mixing/mastering books and it sounds pretty cool.
 
I've got a project I'm working on where I have two acoustic guitar parts playing in unison the same part. I would like to use some reverb with the whole M/S thingy to get a real wide, detailed image of the acoustic guitars in this song because they only play during the bridge, etc.
 
I've searched online for any specifics on using Channel Tools with the above application, but I guess I still don't understand the FX signal path to get the reverb effect with the Channel Tool M/S feature.
 
It's probably easy, but when you've never done something before, everything is hard.
 
Any tips are appreciated!

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#1
Anderton
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Re: Stereo Widening Using Channel Tool's M/S 2013/10/17 23:47:00 (permalink)
If you have X3 with the Nomad plug-ins, there's a stereo image widener which is super-easy to use.
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Teds_Studio
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Re: Stereo Widening Using Channel Tool's M/S 2013/10/17 23:57:18 (permalink)
Craig...would you bus the guitars to a bus with the plug, or add the plug to both guitar tracks individually?  Just curious as to how you would do it.

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razor
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Re: Stereo Widening Using Channel Tool's M/S 2013/10/18 11:32:12 (permalink)
X2. In my signature ;-)

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Re: Stereo Widening Using Channel Tool's M/S 2013/10/18 14:17:09 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby razor 2013/10/18 17:04:39
If you're trying to widen a single track, the simplest place to start would be to turn down the Mid Gain and turn up the Side Gain on the right side.   That should help "spread" the signal by lterally doing what the controls suggest.
 
Or am I missing what you're really trying to do...  

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speedtom
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Re: Stereo Widening Using Channel Tool's M/S 2013/10/18 14:51:10 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby razor 2013/10/18 17:04:45
Dear Razor,
 
I know what you are talking about, I don't get this plug-in, too! but don't worry, there are free plug-ins, very easy to use, and effective:
 
M-ST
http://music.service-1.de/html/m-st.html
 
ADT
http://www.vstcafe.com/2010/01/adt-artificial-double-tracking-vst.html
 
have fun - tom

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bitflipper
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Re: Stereo Widening Using Channel Tool's M/S 2013/10/18 16:39:47 (permalink) ☼ Best Answerby razor 2013/10/18 17:04:51
Our sense of width in a mix depends entirely on audible differences between the left and right channels. Without them, we perceive a mono signal panned down the middle. Consequently, the best route to a wide mix involves careful attention to track and effect panning (and using primarily mono tracks). Even if you subsequently enhance the width artificially you'll always get the best results if the mix is already wide to begin with. 
 
There are two kinds of "stereo widening" techniques: artificially creating L/R differences via EQ, delays and phase shifts, and accentuating what differences are already there via M/S processing. There are plugins that can use more than one technique, including the Channel Tools plugin. There are also plugins that utilize M/S processing in conjunction with EQ (e.g. FabFilter Pro-Q, DMG Equilibrium) or compression (e.g. FabFilter Pro-C, DMG Compassion) to enhance width.
 
Basically what you're doing with the Channel Tools plugin (or any other M/S-enabled tool) is separating all the content that's different between left and right (the "S", or Side component) from all the content that's common to both left and right (the "M", or Mid component). If you then boost the former or attenuate the latter, the result is an emphasis on whatever components are different between left and right. It's important to remember that the plugin isn't adding anything, so if your mix doesn't already have some width to it, Channel Tools can't do much to help you.
 
Using Channel Tools is extremely simple: insert it into the fx bin of a stereo track or bus, leave the input mode set to "Stereo" and turn the "MID GAIN" knob down or the "SIDE GAIN" knob up. (I prefer to turn the mid down, to avoid raising levels.) That's it.
 
Channel Tools has some other tricks, too. The delay feature can be used to manufacture some L/R differences where there are none, by delaying one side relative to the other. Just watch out for very short delays, which can cause undesirable comb filtering. BTW, this is how the stereo enhancer in Ozone works, except it's more flexible due to having multiple bands.
 
Beware that often the side component contains much more high-frequency content than the mid, so boosting the sides may also make your mix brighter. In fact, a common cheat is to boost the treble in the sides in order to enhance width even further. Use with caution.
 
Personally, I almost never use Channel Tools or similar plugins for this purpose. If I do any post-mix widening, it'll be via EQ and/or compression (either M/S or simply unlinking a stereo compressor).
 
 


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Re: Stereo Widening Using Channel Tool's M/S 2013/10/18 16:54:59 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby razor 2013/10/18 17:04:56
Mid side reverb application is cool if you are into retro or figuring most of your audience is listening in mono, but not all.

I have a video on it in you tube. You can find it by looking through my videos at the link in my signature. I fake the omni microphone for the video with a reverb plug.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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razor
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Re: Stereo Widening Using Channel Tool's M/S 2013/10/18 17:08:08 (permalink)
Thanks all. I saw a YouTube video on how to set it up and it wasn't real clear, but it looked like (maybe) a separate fx like reverb was being fed into the side chain of Channel Tool.
 
If that's not right, I guess the only way to add reverb in this setting is a reverb plug that has M/S functionality. Is that right?

Stephen Davis
 
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gswitz
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Re: Stereo Widening Using Channel Tool's M/S 2013/10/18 17:28:27 (permalink)
Razor, you pan the front mike hard left and reverb hard right. When you flip to mono, the verb will exactly cancel. With mid side on, the left track plays left and right in the same polarity. The right track also plays left and right, but the polarity is inverted on the two so in mono I cancels.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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gswitz
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Re: Stereo Widening Using Channel Tool's M/S 2013/10/18 19:13:51 (permalink)

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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cparmerlee
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Re: Stereo Widening Using Channel Tool's M/S 2013/10/18 21:16:30 (permalink)
razor
Thanks all. I saw a YouTube video on how to set it up and it wasn't real clear, but it looked like (maybe) a separate fx like reverb was being fed into the side chain of Channel Tool.
 
If that's not right, I guess the only way to add reverb in this setting is a reverb plug that has M/S functionality. Is that right?


I don't think so.  If you are really doing mid-side recording, you have to run that through the MS matrix before using any other effects, I believe.  If you tamper with either of the channels before matrixing, I don't think you will get a proper stereo signal out of the matrix.
 
There are times that the side channel by itself might be useful.  If you are just looking to add some ambiance to the sound, you might do the normal M-S matrixing to create the stereo channel, but also clone the side channel and process that to add ambiance.

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FastBikerBoy
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Re: Stereo Widening Using Channel Tool's M/S 2013/10/19 01:10:11 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby gswitz 2013/10/19 07:15:59
You can't process the mid and side elements separately within Channel tools, other than gain, but you can use that to create separate mid and side busses for separate processing. This is covered in detail in the Sonar X2 Advanced Workshop FX video but basically (using your guitar scenario).
 
  1. Create 3 busses. One called "Guitar Buss", One "Mid Buss", the other "Side Buss"
  2. Set the track outputs (The ones you want to process) to the "Guitar Buss".
  3. Set the guitar buss output to "none", and insert two sends one to the mid buss the other to the side buss.
  4. Set Mid and Side buss outputs to your master buss
  5. Insert channel tools on both the "Mid" and "Side" busses
  6. Make sure that the input mode of channel tools on both are "Stereo"
  7. On the Mid Buss reduce "Side Gain" in Channel Tools completely
  8. On the Side Buss reduce "Mid Gain" completely
  9. You now have two busses, one that only plays the "Mid" content, the other the "Side" content. Add processers to these busses and use their faders to control levels as you see fit to process each element separately
  10. That's it.
 
I have seen some really complicated set ups suggested with channel tools including send pans, re-encoding busses, etc but there's no need to do that as channel tools takes care of the hard work. The complex buss set up is only needed to perform the mid/side extraction without channel tools.
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sven450
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Re: Stereo Widening Using Channel Tool's M/S 2013/10/19 09:10:34 (permalink)
FastBikerBoy
You can't process the mid and side elements separately within Channel tools, other than gain, but you can use that to create separate mid and side busses for separate processing. This is covered in detail in the Sonar X2 Advanced Workshop FX video but basically (using your guitar scenario).
 
  1. Create 3 busses. One called "Guitar Buss", One "Mid Buss", the other "Side Buss"
  2. Set the track outputs (The ones you want to process) to the "Guitar Buss".
  3. Set the guitar buss output to "none", and insert two sends one to the mid buss the other to the side buss.
  4. Set Mid and Side buss outputs to your master buss
  5. Insert channel tools on both the "Mid" and "Side" busses
  6. Make sure that the input mode of channel tools on both are "Stereo"
  7. On the Mid Buss reduce "Side Gain" in Channel Tools completely
  8. On the Side Buss reduce "Mid Gain" completely
  9. You now have two busses, one that only plays the "Mid" content, the other the "Side" content. Add processers to these busses and use their faders to control levels as you see fit to process each element separately
  10. That's it.
 
I have seen some really complicated set ups suggested with channel tools including send pans, re-encoding busses, etc but there's no need to do that as channel tools takes care of the hard work. The complex buss set up is only needed to perform the mid/side extraction without channel tools.




Thank you FBB.  Another super helpful breakdown.  Gonna go try this right now...

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Re: Stereo Widening Using Channel Tool's M/S 2013/10/19 09:36:29 (permalink)
A combination of a short delay and different EQ curves seems to work for me. One thing you can do is EQ each side with a curve that's the approximate opposite of the other side, ie what you boost on one side, cut on the other. Subtle boosts and cuts are enough to create a stereo difference without changing the character of the instrument too much (I use shelves). Some EQ's let you process left and right with separate curves, like the Waves ones, meaning you can do it with one EQ on a bus.

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Re: Stereo Widening Using Channel Tool's M/S 2013/10/19 22:42:35 (permalink)
Thanks for all of the How-To's. That's exactly what I needed. I like an A) B) C) approach when I do something for the first time.
 
The mixing/mastering books did say something about complimentary EQ cut/boosts on each channel to enhance the stereo sensation.
 
I can hardly wait to try this. I am also trying to get this and future projects more mono-ready and this will help there too.
 

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Re: Stereo Widening Using Channel Tool's M/S 2013/10/19 23:25:49 (permalink)
Razor, Craig Anderton says he always mixes mono until he has his EQs pretty dialed in. He adjusts levels and EQ settings until everything can be heard fairly well in mono. Then he spreads it.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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