Still some issues with MIDI crosstalk, but now there is an easy workaround

I've been playing with X3d and since I have not used Sonar for over 2 years since the X1 days, I really like all the improvements. It definitely feels and looks much nicer. The reason I'm switching back to Sonar is because the crashing with multiple VSTis sending MIDI out and MIDI crosstalk has (mostly) been fixed now. I'm still seeing an issue with crosstalk though.
 
Basically, if I have a VSTi set up that generates its own MIDI events that feeds that into another VSTi, and then insert a new synth with its MIDI input set to PCR 1 - Omni (my external MIDI keyboard), I will get MIDI notes bleeding through onto that new MIDI track when recording. Now before people say that selecting PCR 1 - OMNI is the cause, well it isn't. OMNI in this context means all 16 MIDI channels from my external MIDI keyboard. The documentation explains it:
 

 

• (name of MIDI input driver) > (MIDI Omni or MIDI ch 1-16). Choosing this option causes the track to record any MIDI channel coming from the named MIDI interface input driver, unless you choose a particular MIDI channel instead of MIDI Omni. Then the track will only record input that’s on the MIDI channel you chose, from the named input driver.

 
Also, here is the kicker (and the workaround). When I switch the new MIDI track's input to None, and then back to PCR 1 - OMNI again, the problem goes away. So the exact same configuration, just temporarily switched away and back to the MIDI keyboard. This surely can't be the expected behavior.
 
Before X3d, this would never have worked properly, but with X3d, once you do the little switcheroo with MIDI input, it behaves like it should. I have a custom plugin I developed that is basically a chord sequencer (to quickly experiment with chord progressions) feeding MIDI chords into RealGuitar and it now works flawlessly.
 
I'll try to come up with simple repro steps. And yes Alex, I'll update my sig as well ;)

OK here are some steps to repro. It would be good if someone else can confirm.
 
Unfortunately I have not yet found a CW specific plugin that reproduces this but since Noel previously used Jamstix to reproduce these issues I figured it is a valid plugin to use. So make sure you have the 64-bit version of Jamstix installed. I have a feeling Beatscape will also repro it but I don't have it installed in X3d.
 

1. Start with a blank Sonar project.
2. Drag n Drop an instance of Jamstix. Make sure the "Enable MIDI Output" option is checked.
3. In the Jamstix wizard, click on "Create Song".
4. In Jamstix, go to Options and check the "Enable MIDI Output" option.
5. Go back to Sonar and Drag n Drop any synth, like SI-String Section or similar, making sure to select MIDI Source and First Synth Output, not Simple Instrument Track.
6. On the synth MIDI track, change the input to [your MIDI keyboard] Omni.
7. Put the synth track in record mode, start recording.
8. Record a few bars while Jamstix plays drum notes, then stop recording.
9. Notice the MIDI events from Jamstix on the synth track.
10. On the synth MIDI track, change the input to None, and then back to [your MIDI keyboard] Omni.
11. Delete the previously recorded clip on the synth track.
    
12. Put the synth track in record mode, start recording.
    
13. Record a few bars while Jamstix plays, then stop recording.
    
14. Notice this time that there are no longer Jamstix MIDI events recorded on the synth MIDI track.
    

 
Note: In the past I found that sometimes having more than one MIDI driver enabled prevents some of these issues to reproduce, so make sure you only have one MIDI driver enabled when doing the test.
 
As I said this is a huge improvement over pre-X3d versions where there just was no way to work around this issue at all. Toggling the MIDI input back and forth once is a minor thing to do and X3d is very usable for my workflow now, but I just want to make CW aware of this lingering issue. If someone can reproduce it I will file a problem report.

OK let me see what other ways there are to repro this...

Alex, so far no luck finding a plugin that ships with Sonar that can send MIDI events out. Beatscape used to be able to do this but I believe that plugin is now called something else so I'm not sure how to access it (might also be integrated into Sonar, not sure).
 
Since switching to X3d and also to strictly 64-bit only I'm trying to keep my plugins to an absolute minimum. As such I don't have many non-CW plugins installed (I don't have the Kontakt plugins installed right now, but I can let CW scan my old 32-bit VST folder to see if there is anything there can repro it).
 
Any other plugin that can send MIDI events out should be able to repro it, like Catanya, Jamstix (both have 64-bit demos) etc, or other arpeggio-type plugins. Let me know what plugins you have that could potentially fall in that category and I'll try them out.
 
I'll keep looking in the meantime.

I was able to repro it with Kontakt 4. What you need to do is load some instrument in it, and in Kontakt go to Options > Engine > "Send MIDI to outside world" and make sure that "GUI keyboard" and "incoming notes" are both checked in the dropdown. This will ensure that both the MIDI notes played on the Kontakt onscreen keyboard as well as the notes played into Kontakt are passed through. You can then either use a MIDI clip in the Kontakt MIDI track, or just play on the onscreen Kontakt keyboard as you record from the external MIDI keyboard on the other track. In both cases you will get MIDI crosstalk from the MIDI events being sent out from Kontakt into the other MIDI track you are recording onto.
 
So follow the steps above but substitute Kontakt instead of Jamstix.
 
BTW once again make sure you only have one MIDI input device enabled (in Sonar prefs) or else this is sometimes not reproducible.

Sorry, I know these steps aren't very clear. I'll try to make it a bit less confusing:
 

1. Start with a blank Sonar project.
2. In Sonar, go to Edit > Preferences > MIDI > Devices. Ensure only one MIDI input device is checked, the one that will be used to record MIDI from an external MIDI keyboard.
3. Drag n Drop an instance of Kontakt using the following options ([ ]=unchecked, [x]=checked):
   • [ ] Simple MIDI track
   • [x] MIDI Source
   • [x] First Synth Audio Output
   • [x] Enable MIDI Output
   • Leave other options at their defaults
4. In Kontakt, load any instrument.
5. In Kontakt, go to Options > Engine. Under the "Send MIDI to outside world" dropdown, make sure that "GUI keyboard" is checked.
6. Go back to Sonar and Drag n Drop any synth, like SI-String Section or similar using the following options:
   • [ ] Simple MIDI track
     
   • [x] MIDI Source
     
   • [x] First Synth Audio Output
   • [ ] Enable MIDI Output
   • Leave other options at their defaults
7. On the SI-String MIDI track, change the input to [your MIDI keyboard] Omni.
8. Put the SI-String MIDI track in record mode, start recording.
9. Play some notes on the onscreen Kontakt keyboard.
10. Play some notes from the external MIDI keyboard.
11. Stop recording.
12. Notice that the SI-String MIDI track has recorded events from both the onscreen Kontakt keyboard as well as from the external MIDI keyboard. This is unexpected behavior since we should only see events from the external keyboard.
13. On the SI-String MIDI track, change the input to None, and then back again to [your MIDI keyboard] Omni.
14. Delete the previously recorded clip on the SI-String MIDI track.
15. Repeat steps 8 to 11 (record again from both the onscreen Kontakt keyboard and the external keyboard).
16. Notice this time that there are no longer Kontakt MIDI events recorded on the SI-String MIDI track, but only those from the external MIDI keyboard. This is the expected behavior.

Steven,
 
Thanks for the additional report and steps.  We'll look into it.

CakeAlexS
Can someboduly give me the issue number?Thats all I ask for. I want to keep a record as well. Thanks

Alex, I want to write up the problem report but unfortunately I would only be able to get to that by tomorrow morning. At that point I can give you the number.

Hi guys, here's my report on the issue so far...
 

1. as mentioned, if i use Kontakt as the primary instrument, i will not have any issues with sending Midi out to another independent Midi track. This is regardless of where the track is set to Midi OMNI or Midi Track No. if its at None, it will not work - this is good!!!
2. now i tried following the steps @SilkTone laid out. As i do not have SI Strings, i did what i could with the Default Kontakt Instrument. I am not able to produce a similar result.
   • I can record to the new midi track via external keyboard only. The on screen Kontakt Keyboard events are not recorded.
   • There something curious however, if memory serves, there is a setting within Kontakt about sending Midi information out. This is under the Options page. i can vaguely remember there are 4 settings to be had. (Apologies as i cannot be specific now as i'm not at my desk)
3. Finally @SkilTone, the suggestion to cycle through the Midi Channels of the Midi Track Input Channel has not worked for me. 

 
many thanks all... cheers!!!
 

OK, written up the problem report as CWBRN-23123.

This whole Omni/None thing is a mess.
When you insert soft synth, its midi track input by default is set to Omni. But, in drop-down list Omni corresponds to None.
From X3 manual (p.316)  "• None. This option actually sets the Input field to Omni. With this setting the track will record any MIDI input coming in on any enabled port (MIDI interface input driver) on any channel".
This is somewhat controversial, I think. Especially because we have another Omni option (All Inputs – Omni) that is in essence the same as Omni/None.
From X3 manual (p.316) "• All Inputs > (MIDI Omni or MIDI ch 1-16). With this setting the track will record any MIDI input coming in on any enabled port (MIDI interface input driver) on any channel, unless you choose a particular MIDI channel instead of MIDI Omni".
IMHO, to avoid confusion, None should be real None, not Omni. Given that None is actually Omni, there’s no simple way to block all inputs to track, that is sometimes desirable.
Though, I believe this theme was already discussed on forum, and still we see no changes.

I'm wondering if this is still an issue in X3E?
Thanks...

Thanks Steven :).

Sorry for the late update... I have now confirmed that this issue still exists in X3e.

Thanks I updated my list.