Jim Wright
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StormDrum Group Buy
In case anyone has any spare change --- EastWest is running a group buy for StormDrum. The group buy has already reached the lowest price -- $199, or about half off. StormDrum is an excellent library for "cinematic" percussion beds; the marketing tagline is something like "What would happen if you gave Godzilla drumsticks". There are also lots of nifty percussion kits. I don't know how well the Intakt player (used for the StormDrum loops) works with P5; I have Intakt (as part of NI Komplete 2), so I'll check that out before I splurge. Should work fine with Sonar... The group buy is running through June 30, so there's plenty of time. Full details: StormDrum Group Buy http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=432 - Jim
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jmeredith
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/01 14:37:48
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I purchased Stormdrum less than 2 weeks before the Group Buy was announced (bummer for me but great for those that don't have it yet). More importantly, so far it has been working great with P5 and the sounds are pretty incredible 
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Bradster
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/01 21:18:39
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So the "StormDrum" product is a collection of samples/loops in the NI Intakt format? And it comes with some special version of the Intact player that one must install (and conform to the NI Production Activation scheme) in order to access any of the samples/loops contained in SD?
This seems very tempting, but I didn't go for the GPO Group Buy because of this very same limitation.
Anybody have any luck with the Chicken Systems conversion tool? It would be so nice to have this work in SFZ format in Dimension!
Thanks for any input,
Bradster
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jmeredith
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/01 21:51:59
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Unfortunately you do have to go through the NI Activation process - here is the link for more info/audio clips. The actual library files have a .nks extension - maybe one of the conversion tools would work but I don't know much about them. From the site... Actually you get 2 libraries when you purchase STORMDRUM. The INTAKT loops and the KOMPAKT multi-samples. There are 2 seperate interfaces, so that each category includes all of the features needed...
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Bradster
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/01 22:32:11
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Thanks for the info JM. Unfortunately, you've confirmed my fears. From what I can gather the .nks format is highly secretive and encrypted. Even Chicken Systems can't seem to break it and convert it into other formats.
I hope some day that SD will be available in other formats. It appears to be a sweet set of sounds.
Bradster
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jmeredith
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/01 23:40:08
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Hey Bradster... I may have spoken too soon but I'm still new at this so forgive me  In the first level of the Stormdrum Library directory are 2 .nks files. Then there are several instrument subdirectories and these folders contain .nki and/or .nkm files I downloaded a demo of Extreme Sample Converter earlier to address an Akai disc issue and just looked in there now and under the Source Format menu it has Kontakt (*.nki and *.nkm) so maybe you could still convert the files but... There is still that darn activation issue and given the drama/trauma I just went through trying to activate my legally purchased copy of Adobe Creative Suite 2... aaarrrrgghhhh, it's not easy being legal  but dang this library sounds good EDIT Okay so the .nks files are like 1+ gig in size and the .nki/.nkm files are like 3 - 10kb so I probably didn't help you at all and now I'm gonna go sit in the corner now and read my manual like a good little girl
post edited by jmeredith - 2005/06/01 23:43:44
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TheOrphan
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/01 23:53:42
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Just curious, what's the problem with NI's activation process? I just got Reaktor 5 (update to Reaktor Session) and it went super smooth. About a month ago, I reinstalled Reaktor Session too, no problems there either.
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ba_midi
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/01 23:58:48
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I refuse to buy another EW product or from NI for that matter. I spent a lot for the EWQ Gold Orchestra package. It has lots of issues - on my system. Their tech support has NOT helped, and their responses are slow (months!). Whenever a vendor treats customers like that, I will always speak out. I was polite and courteous at all times, but have gotten NO help after spending over 500 bucks with their products. ORIGINAL: Jim Wright
In case anyone has any spare change --- EastWest is running a group buy for StormDrum.
The group buy has already reached the lowest price -- $199, or about half off.
StormDrum is an excellent library for "cinematic" percussion beds; the marketing tagline is something like "What would happen if you gave Godzilla drumsticks". There are also lots of nifty percussion kits.
I don't know how well the Intakt player (used for the StormDrum loops) works with P5; I have Intakt (as part of NI Komplete 2), so I'll check that out before I splurge. Should work fine with Sonar...
The group buy is running through June 30, so there's plenty of time.
Full details: StormDrum Group Buy http://www.soundsonline-forums.com/showthread.php?t=432
- Jim
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PaintedBlue
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/02 00:04:55
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ORIGINAL: jmeredith
There is still that darn activation issue and given the drama/trauma I just went through trying to activate my legally purchased copy of Adobe Creative Suite 2... aaarrrrgghhhh, it's not easy being legal but dang this library sounds good
Happened to me too with CS2 Premium Upgrade a few weeks ago. Tech support tried to get me to use their secret unlock function, and even that didn't work. While on hold, I attempted to reinstall it 6 times, and the product finally activated on the sixth attempt after doing nothing different on my part. I don't even want to think about what will happen if I have to reinstall it again after an OS format. Although I can't exactly stop using Adobe products at the moment, it really makes me dislike C/R even more. This isn't the first product to give me major issues.
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jmeredith
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/02 00:30:21
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without going off on a serious tangent here... Activation processes quite often cause legal, licensed users major grief while the individuals for which the process is intended i.e., those who steal, have long since found ways around the issue
For me personally, the only products I've ever had trouble installing/activating are Adobe but having to go through the process with Macromedia, Adobe, etc everytime I reformat my hard drive or make major changes to my PC is a bit of a pain - the concept is obviously not stopping the problem so I'm not sure of the logic in continuing it
If I could live without some of this software I would but need most of it for my job - as for the music stuff... my addiction for cool sounds won out over general principle
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Bradster
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/02 01:49:19
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ORIGINAL: TheOrphan
Just curious, what's the problem with NI's activation process? I just got Reaktor 5 (update to Reaktor Session) and it went super smooth. About a month ago, I reinstalled Reaktor Session too, no problems there either.
Orphan, As you can see this is a very touchy – almost religious – topic for many people. Some folks are already deeply set against it both on principle and practicality (guilty!) while others seem to believe enough in the effectiveness and necessity of such mechanisms to tolerate a sometimes painful process. The rest practice some degree of agnosticism. They don't like going thorough it, but at the same time is does not influence their purchasing decisions. This neutrality is often fragile though once the system fails. And it does fail. At this point you are at the mercy of whatever technical support route the vendor offers. Some it seems are quite accommodating and more than willing to provide whatever extra activations or support necessary to get you up and running. Others are very Draconian with their assistance and place the onus on you to prove over and over that you even have the rights to use the software for which you have paid. Once you get in touch with them that is. Based purely on anecdotal evidence, it appears that IK Multimedia (SampleTank/SonicSynth) are in the former category while NI seems firmly in the latter. Of course there are those who will report the opposite. It's a very personal experience I suppose. But it all comes down to how much you are willing to gamble – first with your money, then later with your time (or worse, your clients' time) when you can't get it activated. To look at it another way, software is a very complex beast and it's sometimes a miracle that it works at all. Attempting to deliberately make it not work seems severely misguided to say the very least. One more tidbit to consider on the subject of C/R activations: there are two distinct types, one flexible, one much more rigid. I'm speaking of the need to "deactivate" a previously authorized system before being allowed to activate another. The obvious purpose of this is to enforce the EULA by preventing you from installing on more than one or two systems, although the stated reasons are usually to deter piracy or some such lofty aspirations. The downside, usually written in the small print, is that once you deactivate a system you can never reactivate it. Say you are allowed 2 simultaneously activated systems for your software, you choose your primary DAW and your laptop. But say the DAW starts to act up and you really need to use the software. So you deactivate the primary DAW and open up a new authorization on a backup system. Problem is, once you restore the primary box to health you can't then later reactivate it. Citing my previous vendor example, IK takes the high road while NI takes the low road. This whole dance is complex enough when you are just dealing with the activation vendor directly. With products like SD or the GPO, you are purchasing from a middleman who is "locking" their sound libraries (albeit very good ones, it seems) into another vendor's activation scheme. Consequently, when you purchase one of these bundled products, you are at the mercy of not one but two vendors (and often two EULA's). As customers we can't directly affect decisions to embrace these foolhardy notions of "protection", but we can vote with our wallets and take our business elsewhere. And then let the vendors know the reason for our decisions not to purchase their products. That does affect their bottom line. Or we can quietly conform.  Bradster
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Bradster
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/02 02:00:49
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ORIGINAL: jmeredith
without going off on a serious tangent here...
Thanks again, JM. It appears that I've taken the tagent for you though.  And thanks for the techie 411 on the file formats. Obviously I don't own any NI products, nor will I, but they seem to use a combination of file types to both distribute the sounds and to index into them in some encrypted way. I'm really hoping that Rene's .SFZ format gains some market share at some point! Cheers, Bradster
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jmeredith
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/02 02:02:09
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now I feel even more guilty for selling out and buying Stormdrum  Sorry for not standing strong
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Bradster
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/02 02:06:50
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No worries, JM! So long as it works, the sounds are pleasing, and you are satisfied, then you've won. I'm just hoping to get folks to consider things like activation schemes before their next purchase. Becuase you can't consider them afterwards!  B'ster
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TheOrphan
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/02 02:38:10
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Thanks for the info Bradster.
I guess if I had ever run into the problems that you've cited I'd feel obliged to don my eye patch, put polly on my shoulder, and get some crack. I don't see anything ethically wrong with owning the software but using a different key to activate it - especially if you've tried to do it their way and been stymied at every turn.
Please note, I DO see something very ethically wrong with circumventing the whole purchasing of the software!!! I'm in development myself.
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Jim Wright
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/02 10:22:30
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C/R and other copy protection schemes are a very touchy subject.
I understand they can make life difficult for users (including me, sometimes). However, as someone who used to make a living writing music software, I've known lots of people --- developers, companies, sound library creators -- who have suffered enormously, directly and personally from software piracy.
The company I worked for in the mid-80's stopped doing any customer support into Canada because Canadian laws at the time allowed music stores to give away a copy of our product -- Sequencer Plus -- as an incentive to buy the hardware MIDI interface from them. Lots of stores did exactly that; sales into Canada plummeted, support calls soared....
we couldn't afford to pay tech support people to answer calls from people who hadn't paid for the product -- clearly not good for the Canadians who had paid.
I was lucky enough to work with Wendy Carlos, in the early nineties. She was very ticked off that her albums were widely pirated on college campuses . It's one of the factors that led to her focus on non-album work for a while -- in order to pay her bills, frankly -- and to stop doing college appearances.
I don't think there's a good answer (I can't even get my daughters to stop "sharing" music with friends..... they just make sure I don't find out about it).
If you don't want to buy products with obnoxious copy protection -- don't. If you want the product badly enough, and can live with its protection scheme -- go for it, and don't feel guilty about it. By all means, keep agitating for better solutions -- just understand that people creating the software and sounds are also people -- who need to make a living, and are generally pretty passionate about making cool stuff for musicians.
FWIW, I've written both open-source and closed-source software, and have done lots of unpaid consulting work on various MIDI standards and such. I believe in "giving back to the community". I don't believe in "getting taken by the community", without my consent.
Hoping not to start a flame war ....
- Jim
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Bradster
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/02 11:50:21
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Hi Jim, No, no flame war whatsoever. That's not permitted here. But thanks for your insightful counterpoint. I don't disagree with anything you are saying. I myself am a software developer, although I do primarily consulting work and customized applications rather than shrink-wrap apps. So I'm fortunate enough to not have been stung by piracy activities or differences in international copyright law. However your Canadian story if very disheartening indeed. Was the vendor that was handing out copies of your app. paying you for each copy, or simply duping them on their own? A person or company that puts in the effort to create a piece of software absolutely has the right to be compensated for their work, unless of course they have purely altruistic motives like the good folks at Kjaerjhaus or Digital Fish Phones. The issue I have with C/R and the like is that it does absolutely nothing to stop real piracy. Any software that uses any sort of copy protection is instantly and widely available in a cracked version or accessible with a keygen program. In other words, those being impacted the most by these schemes are the paying customers rather than the pirates. This doesn't do much in my book to engender a trusting relationship. Other companies seem to fare quite well with only serial number protections (Cakewalk), or even none (rgc:audio). I'm sure there are cracks of all the Cake products available but the relationship and the respect between Cake and their customers would (or should) implore most good natured folks to avoid them. On the other hand, products using complex C/R often place their users in a quandary: to deal with the tedious and time-consuming legal activation route, or to just crack it and be done with it. Good, honest, paying customers should not be placed in this position, IMHO. Bradster
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mike85021
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/02 11:57:38
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ORIGINAL: ba_midi
I refuse to buy another EW product or from NI for that matter. Their tech support has NOT helped, and their responses are slow (months!).
Whenever a vendor treats customers like that, I will always speak out. I was polite and courteous at all times, but have gotten NO help after spending over 500 bucks with their products.
I swore off NI after buying the latest version of Absynth. Aside from the protection scheme, customer service was dismal, and I only succeeded in resolving the issue by hounding them on a regular basis (AFTER I finally got a phone number for a contact in LA).
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mike85021
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/02 12:18:32
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Original: Jim Wright
I was lucky enough to work with Wendy Carlos, in the early nineties. She was very ticked off that her albums were widely pirated on college campuses . Fantastic! I sure would like to hear a few stories. I was fascinated with the early years and thought the hiatus between albums was due to the sex change.
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Jim Wright
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/02 13:35:21
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ORIGINAL: Bradster
... However your Canadian story if very disheartening indeed. Was the vendor that was handing out copies of your app. paying you for each copy, or simply duping them on their own? It wasn't a single vendor. It was most of the (independent) music stores across Canada that carried the Roland MPU-401 (the MIDI interface we used). The music stores (or their supplier; we never figured it out exactly )were duping the floppy disks and photocopying the manual. A person or company that puts in the effort to create a piece of software absolutely has the right to be compensated for their work, unless of course they have purely altruistic motives like the good folks at Kjaerjhaus or Digital Fish Phones. The issue I have with C/R and the like is that it does absolutely nothing to stop real piracy. Any software that uses any sort of copy protection is instantly and widely available in a cracked version or accessible with a keygen program.
In other words, those being impacted the most by these schemes are the paying customers rather than the pirates. This doesn't do much in my book to engender a trusting relationship. I agree that paying customers are impacted -- often a lot -- and that serious pirates aren't impeded by these schemes. I don't know if casual pirates ("George, let me have a copy of SomeCoolMusicApp") are discouraged by the schemes or not. I find the NI scheme fairly annoying at times, but decided I wanted the software anyway (I got Komplete 2 at the pre-order discount last spring -- around $600 total -- and liked it enough to get the Care package; so far I've gotten updates to Battery 2, Absynth 3, Kontakt 2 and Reaktor 5 for my investment of $289, and the year's barely half over.) If/when I write music software again, I won't use any C/R scheme -- serial number protection at most. That's assuming I charge for it; most likely, I'll write free stuff, since it's a hobby for me at this point (and if I charge for it, I have to support it, update it, clear it with my employer...). For now, I'd rather spend my "copious free time" on making music, rather than "music software for fun" (I write enough software during the day!).
Other companies seem to fare quite well with only serial number protections (Cakewalk), or even none (rgc:audio). I'm sure there are cracks of all the Cake products available but the relationship and the respect between Cake and their customers would (or should) implore most good natured folks to avoid them. On the other hand, products using complex C/R often place their users in a quandary: to deal with the tedious and time-consuming legal activation route, or to just crack it and be done with it. Good, honest, paying customers should not be placed in this position, IMHO.
Yes, a number of companies have figured out how to make it work, but I think that's only true above a certain size (so that you can afford to spend enough on manuals, customer support, other things that encourage respect by customers). For smaller companies -- it's very hard to both make the product and do the "customer relations' part. You mentioned rgc:audio -- it would be interesting to hear René's experience with piracy of his products, and how it was affecting his business, livelihood, future plans. Summing up -- I don't much like C/R schemes; I wouldn't use them on my own software, and I only buy products that use them if the benefits (sound, features....) outweigh the hassle (a very personal decision). That said, I respect the right of software developers to protect their work. I'd like to see as much community focus on discouraging piracy as on crusades against C/R schemes -- and the Cakewalk forums are generally pretty good in that regard; one reason I hang out here. Just my 2 bits -- Jim
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BC
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/02 16:03:59
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I'm tempted but I'm not buying any more NI-powered instruments.
Let's face facts - they suck. Oh sure - the sounds may be great but the NI instruments S_U_C_K.
They offer NO automation (well, the INTAKT powered instruments offer some crude automation)
They don't publish their presets so you are FORCED to use the horrific eensy-tweensy twitchy UI.
There is virtually NO support for the NI-powered instruments.
I understand why content-producers like East-West would like to use something like the NI-powered instruments as opposed to say a normal Loop library - they have much more copy control. Bad choice I say. If STORMDRUM were offered as a Giga-sampler library and a loop collection- I'd buy it in a heartbeat.
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Jim Wright
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/02 16:53:04
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Hmm..... Next time I notice an interesting group buy, should I just keep it to myself? Didn't mean to stir things up -- honest! - Jim
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jmeredith
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/02 17:42:51
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I don't think you stirred things up at all and it's really refreshing to see that a civilized discussion can be had - couldn't get this on a lot of forums. You aren't the first to mention group buys (I've mentioned a few myself) so no problem there. My only concern would be whether or not I have the willpower to resist - judging by the number of FEDEXes and downloads (e.g., the z3ta bundle) I've received/done lately... the answer would be no for I AM WEAK
post edited by jmeredith - 2005/06/02 22:24:00
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Jim Wright
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/02 22:07:53
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I heartily approve of people buying music software -- it's my favorite vice, apart from indulging my daughters. So, I wouldn't say you're weak -- you've just got your priorities straight ! - Jim
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MysticMizer
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/05 00:16:30
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Uh Oh....
Hmmmm...I have both Absynth 2 and the latest version of Kontakt...
Unfortunately I made the mistake of buying the Dell Dimension (Gen 2) as the hub of my DAW.....and have hence discovered that I am going to have to buy or construct a DAW dedicated machine.
What concerns me is the smooth transition of all of the apps I have running on this machine to my next purchase...any advance advice regarding dealing with NI would be appreciated.
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Jim Wright
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/05 00:41:36
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ORIGINAL: MysticMizer
Hmmmm...I have both Absynth 2 and the latest version of Kontakt...
Unfortunately I made the mistake of buying the Dell Dimension (Gen 2) as the hub of my DAW.....and have hence discovered that I am going to have to buy or construct a DAW dedicated machine.
What concerns me is the smooth transition of all of the apps I have running on this machine to my next purchase...any advance advice regarding dealing with NI would be appreciated.
See NI Authorization FAQ In particular: I have used up my two authorization keys, but need another authorization key since I got a new computer (or changed relevant parts of my existing computer system).
No problem. On the “Manage Registrations and Authorizations†page you can deactivate system IDs that you no longer need. Once you’ve deactivated the old system ID you can then authorize a new system ID. Please be aware that a deactivated system ID cannot be used again. That means you cannot authorize the product again on the computer with the deactivated system ID. Using the product on a computer with a deactivated system ID is not allowed by the license agreement. How to deactivate a hardware profile/system ID is explained in our new deactivation help... Since NI allows two authorizations per product, the simplest way would be to just install and authorize each product on your new DAW. Once everything is running smoothly, you can then deactivate the installation on your old machine. For some reason, NI does not permit customers to re-authorize an application on a given machine, once it's been de-authorized on that machine. So -- don't deauthorize unless you're sure you don't want to use it again on your old machine. I'm building a new DAW myself, and will be doing something similar once the new machine is assembled and burned in. I'm not defending this policy, just trying to help out MysticMizer - Jim
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MysticMizer
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/05 12:26:06
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Thanks for the tips Jim, greatly appreciated. If I may digress for just one post what route are you going to go with your Daw? I am leaning twoard one of Cakewalk's reccomendations just to keep things as simple (and noiseless) as possible. This Dell is the greatest computer I've ever owned but it sounds like a hair dryer for kripes sake.
post edited by MysticMizer - 2005/06/05 12:28:29
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Jim Wright
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/05 16:17:23
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MysticMizer -- I've built a fair number of systems (starting around 1984) and am quite PC-literate (my day gig is software research). So, what works for me may not necessarily work for everyone. That said, my new DAW will include: * MSI Neo2 Platinum motherboard, Athlon 64 3700+ "San Diego" with 1M cache and a Thermalright XP-90 heatsink with low-noise Nexus fan. * 2G (2x1GB sticks) of fast OCZ "EL" RAM (PC3200, but highly overclockable) * A Matrox P650 dual-DVI video card, driving 19" and 15" LCDs with a seriously-geeky KVM/video switcher setup that lets me use up to 4 PCs. * Antec SLK3700-BQE case (similar to Sonata), Seasonic low-noise 430W power supply. * EMU 1212M audio card. * Samsung SpinPoint 160GB 7200 RPM IDE drive (boot/OS drive) * Samsung SpinPoint 160GB 7200 RPM SATA drive (audio track recording/playback ) * Seagate Barracuda 200GB 7200 RPM IDE drive, series 7200.7 (audio sample data, software development stuff). * External Firewire 160G drive for whatever. * Windows XP (SP1, not SP2), Sonar 4PE, Project 5v2, z3t4+, DR-008, NI Komplete 2, Atmosphere/Trilogy, Culture, GPO, various other softsynths and effects. I've had the Matrox card, Seagate drive and Antec case for about a year. Most everything else is new. Hopefully, the new DAW will last me around 3 years, with upgrades along the way. Likely upgrades include a) going to 4G RAM (by adding a 2nd pair of 1G sticks); b) adding at least one more SpinPoint drive (and using a RAID 0 configuration to double my disk throughput for audio recording/playback); c) getting an Athlon 64 "X2" dual-core CPU, when they become affordable' d) going to 64-bit Windows, once it's fully cooked and drivers, apps are available. My old DAW (2.8G P4, 1G RDRAM, Delta 66) will become my plugin farm server. I'm making it a dual-boot machine (WinXP and 98SE) so I can use my OASYS PCI card (which requires 98SE). The OASYS PCI has ADAT I/O, which I'll use for connecting to the 1212M in my primary DAW. I'm also going to look into FX Teleport. It's my hobby, but at least it keeps me off the streets at night .... - Jim EDIT: If you're not fairly comfortable with PC tweakery, you can either a) plan to learn, or b) get a system from somebody who builds DAWs for a living. There are various DAW builders who hang out on this forum (Scott Reams, others). I don't recommend getting a system built by the local computer shop: they're generally clueless about what's needed for a DAW (although they can probably build a smokin' game system). I haven't looked at the Cakewalk recommendations ....just did; they've listed a number of good shops. I personally lean towards Athlon 64 processors at this point (best low-latency performance; run very cool), but P4's may work better with cards like the UAD-1.
post edited by Jim Wright - 2005/06/05 16:27:40
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MysticMizer
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/05 23:59:26
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Wow, that's pretty impressive....
After seeing that I'm more sure than ever that I'm going to go with one of the Cakewalk recco's. That system looks like it's gonna run you over 3G's....a bit out of my price league.
I have learned an expensive lesson about cheating on the Daw, trying to make it an all in wonder unit....never became more painfully apparent than earlier today when I ran my air conditioner, and discovered to my horror that the computer noise drowned it out completely.
Appreciate the feedback...I'll check in again and see how it's runnin for ya.
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bnmoore 
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RE: StormDrum Group Buy
2005/06/06 00:07:14
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I refuse to buy another EW product or from NI for that matter. StormDrum is Quantum Leap. EW and QL are two separate companies although there are several joint projects. It probably won't matter to you since you're done with NI. FWIW StormDrum is two NI players with two separate libraries. There's a Kompakt instrument and an Intakt instrument. There are two separate serial numbers requiring separate authorizations. The only thing I don't like about it is the Hi-Hats in the acoustic drums. Just one man's opinion but I like NI products. I've never needed tech support but have read that it's pretty bad on a few forums. I did have a slight delay with customer support over a grace period free update but it worked out fine.
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