Strategies/Techniques for MANUALLY humanizing MIDI notes efficiently in Sonar PRV?

Hi, guys. I hope everyone is having a happy friday.
 
This is an open question. All answers and suggestions are appreciated and even though I accented MANUALLY in the title I am also interested in less manual methods like bulk humanize functions or CalScripts or whatever else. I am however a spazzy OCD micromanaging weirdo when it comes to this type of thing so my main desire is control. Essentially I want to learn various ways to make my synths/samplers/samples/notes/etc trigger exactly how I want when I want.
 
I am going to provide a couple specific examples based on what I am currently trying to accomplish but really I will need to do a LOT of this using all sorts of VSTis and MIDI tracks so as usually just a massive brain tap of my favorite dudes (and dudettes) on the intertubes.
 
Current scenario:
 
I have multiple MIDI tracks that are very nicely programmed but are quite rigid as far as timing and velocity. Specifically they are drums, bass and some additional sounds but I'll focus on the drums and bass.
 
So I'll start with the drums and more specifically the kick. I want to go through and slightly nudge the hits out of perfect timing (humanize) and create little scenarios where the velocities change depending on what is happening.
 
The parts are rather complex and cannot happen as a bulk action. I also want to leave out specific notes/hits (like specific downbeats but maybe not all and accent smashes that go with cymbal hits and big bass/guit accents). There are probably well over a thousand hits in this particular tune (fast double kick). I like to do this stuff by hand/ear one note at a time but maybe there are workflows where I can do a section at a time and then go back and manually manipulate any notes that are bothering me... so I would do some bulk process then fix any notes out of place upon listening back as needed.
 
Then there is velocity. Even though in modern productions kick parts would generally remain consistent and I do want consistency I do not want "robotic". So forcing maybe a three sample difference is kind of what I want. Since in most sample banks you only have say 12 or 24 or whatever amount of samples to cover the 127 vel range I need strategies to make sure my adjustments are actually triggering what I want and when. Not sure how to decipher/control that accurately let alone how to do it efficiently.
 
So for velocity I need to a) know how to figure out what velocity ranges trigger individual samples (and be able to test the samples to make sure they are the correct sound for that specific trigger point) and b) how to adjust things to correct range for each note and/or for a range of notes and/or a range of notes while excluding specific notes (like downbeats or accents) efficiently.
 
I know this can happen at multiple stages of the MIDI process. Like in PRV or on the track controls or within the synth/sampler. I'm just not sure how to go about it reasonably quickly while retaining control of everything. I don't mind hammering through things a section at a time or even a measure at a time but I am trying to avoid doing it a NOTE at a time (which is literally how I've done things until now).
 
For things like bass or other instruments I guess the question is essentially the same. For bass I'd like to mimic an up/downstroke picking technique that is semi logical (so downstroke points triggers a louder/more agressive sample and upstrake slightly less powerful). This would again require selecting specific notes (so every second note in a run) and forcing them to trigger the "upstroke" while retaining the "downstroke" samples AND retaining any hard hitting accents employing the top velocity sample.
 
Whatever... you get the idea. It's all about realism and manipulating things accurately/logically without spending a million years meticulous adjusting EVERY note.
 
The best I've come up with so far is lassoing a bunch of notes and using the timing tool but that really doesn't do what I want.
 
As you can see I have no idea WTF I am doing and trying be ultra fancypants (as usual) so I'm hoping that just hearing how you guys do this type of stuff will knock some rotting wood out of my noggin' and I can create some decent plans to humanize how I like without wasting more time than necessary. Please don't restrict your techniques to just drums or bass or using the PRV or inside synths or anything. I intend to do all sorts of crazy stuff and every single time I post one of these threads I get a million ideas.
 
Anything is helpful.
 
Thanks and cheeeeers!!!!

DRanck
If your vst support CC11 or CC1, you can also use a control surface or the mod wheel to record the automation in real time. It is much more effective and efficient than doing after the fact.

I know it doesn't help you now though...

This idea is interesting. Can I not write velocity changes directly into Sonar using a controller Mod or Pitch wheel?
 
Like if I could somehow pick the note I want the changes to be applied to (let's say the kick drum) from the Pitch wheel (pitch wheel would work better I think because it bounces back to a specific default point) then hit record/write automation and just ride the pitch wheel up and down as needed (even at a slower tempo) so that each hit triggers a velocity layer sample one up or one down as I go (or I can crank it for an accent hit or drop and hold/ride it lower for more mellow parts)...
 
Well I'm probably not expressing myself well but if that IS possible (and someone out there understands what I mean) then I would be interesting in ways to set that up. Live performance is no problem for me and in many ways preferable so taking a raw MIDI track and manipulating it like that would be totally slick. I would likely want to do it section by section and perhaps at a slower tempo to really get each hit right.
 
Id want that to be printed to Sonar's PRV though. Not riding the synth parameters because I would prefer it in the PRV and as you pointed out maybe the synth will not have such a paramater available and I may want those changes to be routed to a different synth (if I don't like the current sound).
 
Of course that doesn't deal with timing at all but it is certainly half the battle... if not more considering screwing around with velocity on a note by note basis is WAY more annoying (IME) that timing.
 
Sorry if the preceding post is crazy or nonsensical. Thanks for the idea. This is definitely something to explore further.
 
Cheers.

carl
I find that static velocities can result in a rigid or unnatural feeling just as much as (& in some cases more than) strict quantizing.

Think accents & phrasing when working with velocities & the interaction between certain other tracks as well.

Oh definitely and pretty much what I'm trying to sort out. Seriously I am the type of spazz that listen backs to each hit/note in and out of context of the mix to make sure it's all working together. I want to figure out ways to speed up the process. It's easy enough with say a simple blues or rock song but once you start dealing with blast beats and pressure fills or crazy fast bass riding a single note for long stretches it gets much more time consuming.
 
BTW... your avatar made me ell O ell. Kind of sums up my so called "career". Guitar on toast. Heheh.

There are quite a few comments in this thread that you might find helpful.

Anderton
There are quite a few comments in this thread that you might find helpful.

Cool. Gonna read through that in the morning when the brainbox is less chaotic. Based on a quick scan I'm getting the sense what I'm asking for isn't where the tech is quite at yet. I do this often as a "n00b". I guess I see all this fancy stuff doing all these crazy things I previously never thought possible and just assume that ANYTHING I think of is possible if I just make myself less stoopid enough to make it happen. Kind of "spoiled brat/latecomer" syndrome... as in I avoided computer based music stuff because it wasn't "ready" to me until recently and as a live artist I didn't need it. Now I get all the benefits of what everyone has been doing since the 80's without nearly any of the limitations.
 
So when I DO encounter limitations I gotta shake my head and remember exactly how crazy it is we can do what we do.
 
Cheers.
 
PS: Still think a nice fat article/vid on manual humanizing in Sonar would be cool. I normally input everything via controller (and now with ARA which is awesome) but sometimes you gotta deal with tracks created elsewhere that aren't programmed/recorded with that "live" quality.

I have found that some synths and sample players are bettter at this than others. BFD3 for example is far better at making the drums sound real vs any other drum sample player I know. 

Bristol_Jonesey
Another approach Beep.
 
Select all the kick drum notes in the prv.
 
Go back to the Track View & right click to select Process Effect > Midi Fx > Cakewalk Fx > Midi Velocity
 
Click the little square button above the Randomize box and type a small number in the Amount box - you said a variation of 3 would suffice so that's a good starting point.
 
Leave the Tendency value at 0 - this way notes will be randomized either side of where they currently sit.
 

Excellent. I had forgotten about the MIDI FX. Never used them before and this is definitely a good excuse to try it out. Now can these effects be "bounced" like audio effects can? I'm thinking I could tweak the MIDI effects by section, get a section sounding good, bounce it (and then manually tweak anything extra needed) and move on to the next section.
 
This is actually a great idea but I'd definitely want to work through it in sections as opposed to having the effect apply for the whole piece.
 
Thanks.

This is a process effect - click the Ok button and your changes are applied directly to the midi velocities
 
If you don't like it, or want to try different parameters, undo it and start again.
 
Once you're happy with the kick, do it again with the snare & hat.
 
I like to treat toms individually but, because there are relatively fewer tom hits than the other 3, it's not too onerous to consider each individual hit and adjust their velocities by hand. Ditto for cymbals.
 
I try to (don't laugh) think like a drummer and decide which hits in a given phrase should be played harder or softer within a particular phrase.

Select a row of notes (like the kick).
 
Select a Time Range (in the timeline) so only the kick hits in that time range are selected
 
Do the process effect.
 
Have the effect only apply to the notes in that row within the selected time range.

 
That's it - you've nailed it

For me piano roll is where i do all the humanizing. Note by note. Hit by hit. It takes some time before you get used to it but after a while you get up to speed. Im thinking mostly of velocity here. Timing takes time. But putting the drums a little back makes it groove.