Studio Business Technique

How much should I charge?

I have a home studio in my garage and have been given the opportunity to do a paid recording gig. The artist would like to record an album of 10 original songs that he has written. These songs will be performed by multiple musicians (drummers, vocalist, guitarist..etc) on separate tracking sessions. I've done some homework and realized that this is going to be a serious undertaking (pre-production, tracking, editing & mixing). I plan on having someone else master it.

By no means am I a professional engineer/mixer, so I can't really comp my hourly rates with local studios in the area (avg $600 - $800 per song). I've done a work load analysis and determined that it will take about 35 hrs per song from start to finish (pre-production, tracking, editing & mixing). So that would be about 350 hours for the whole album. If I charge $10 an hour, that's $3500 for the album or $350 a song. Not to mention he will still need to master it.

Any thoughts, ideas, suggestions

35 hours per song? That's way too much time IMO. If the band is rehearsed, and they should be, the tracking shouldn't take near that much time.

But then again, if they are comfortable with spending that much time and money, why not?

I'd look at it like this.
4 minute song. Even if it took them an hour to get usable tracks, and you took a total of 3 hours to mix it, that's 4 hours per song, making the total for a 10 song album 40 hours, before mixing. If I'm off on the tracking and mixing by 100%, that's still only 80 hours.

But maybe they think they are Fleetwood Mac and they are going to record their version of Tusk. In that case, your estimate is low by about 3000 hours.

Randy

My post above should have read "40 hours before mastering". Sorry about that.

It does sound like a lot of fun actually. I guess my next question would be, how good are the players he's bringing in to track the songs? Are they studio cats? Are they just former bandmates? Can you or the artist write charts, and can they read them? Will they be learning the songs from demo's or is it going to be a deal where they'll learn the songs in the studio? This info is critical for knowing how long this project could take.

Randy

The issues pointed out above are all valid questions you really need to ask and find out.

That is one reason I do  not wish to run a recording studio "open for business" so to speak, aside from the fact that here in NC, I have not seen a single studio stay in business very long when they need to make a payroll.

While it does sound like fun, it also sounds like a can of worms. Since it doesn't appear to be your sole income source, you should fix either a "contracted price" per song or by the hour...which ever you feel comfortable with. If the players are pro's, the contract price should work better since they will nail the takes quickly, but if they are bandmates or freelance pickers, hourly would probably be better...after all, time is money.  If it's gonna take time, get paid for that time.

Negotiate the best deal for you both... win/win is best. Make it clear what is included in a turn key project, and if mastering is not included be sure he knows that and tell him the extra cost for that as well. No surprises works best.

then... dig in, take it song by song, strive for continuity of sound, and have fun and turn out a project that YOU and he can be proud of. Be sure to get progress payments including a DOWN PAYMENT, and final payment is due before he gets the full master.

Randy - most of the musicians are 20+yrs playing with studio experience and some sort of musical education background. The vocalist on the other hand are all young male and female (early 20's) and have never worked in a studio atmosphere before. Everyone will be learning the songs from our pre-production demo's (guitar and vocal)

AT - I hear you about taking it slow, one song at a time approach, I'd hate to get stuck with an album contract and see the project never end, not to mention HE'S A LAWYER!!!.  I know I'm not going to get rich doing this ($10 per hr) but at least I can start making some $$$ to re-coupe what I spend on gear and more importantly get the experience.

Guitar Hacker - I have no clue what he's paying the musicians, I guess it would be ok to ask? I've made it clear to him that I will not be mastering, he is fully aware. WOW!! "progressive payments, down payments and final payment before he gets the full master" that should go into the contract...thanks man

Agape - from what everyone is saying it really sounds like I need to spell everything out in the contract...thanks

you really don't care what he is paying or not paying the musicians..... he needs to have work for hire's signed with all musicians if he plans to see the CD and music of their performance.

If you do not insist on progress payments as the project moves along, you will end up owed a bunch of money, and the more it is... the more likely you are NOT to get it at the end.  Yes, insist on a down payment of at least 10 to 20% of the expected cost of the recording. If you are sending the product out for mastering, and the bill comes to you, be sure that is covered in writing as well so you get reimbursed.... before you send it out. Mastering a CD can easily run in excess of $1k, and you don't want that coming out of your pocket.

If the guy bucks at a down payment, it tells me the customer doesn't have the money, so imagine how hard it will be to get paid if you spend a lot of time and have a bunch of your effort tied up, and the customer has not paid very much and now owes you 80% of the cost at the end..... get regular progress payments.

I would also consider if you do a contracted price, have it include a certain (generous) number of hours.... if that number is exceeded due to the customer's issues, amateur musicians needing numerous takes, changes in the songs, whatever..... have it in the contract for overages so you get paid extra if the project drags on. That is in there to encourage the customer to get the project done in a timely manner more than "punishing them" for going over.... and it's always up to you if you want to charge for the overages.

Guitarhacker


you really don't care what he is paying or not paying the musicians..... he needs to have work for hire's signed with all musicians if he plans to see the CD and music of their performance.

If you do not insist on progress payments as the project moves along, you will end up owed a bunch of money, and the more it is... the more likely you are NOT to get it at the end.  Yes, insist on a down payment of at least 10 to 20% of the expected cost of the recording. If you are sending the product out for mastering, and the bill comes to you, be sure that is covered in writing as well so you get reimbursed.... before you send it out. Mastering a CD can easily run in excess of $1k, and you don't want that coming out of your pocket.

If the guy bucks at a down payment, it tells me the customer doesn't have the money, so imagine how hard it will be to get paid if you spend a lot of time and have a bunch of your effort tied up, and the customer has not paid very much and now owes you 80% of the cost at the end..... get regular progress payments.

I would also consider if you do a contracted price, have it include a certain (generous) number of hours.... if that number is exceeded due to the customer's issues, amateur musicians needing numerous takes, changes in the songs, whatever..... have it in the contract for overages so you get paid extra if the project drags on. That is in there to encourage the customer to get the project done in a timely manner more than "punishing them" for going over.... and it's always up to you if you want to charge for the overages.

I totally agree with this in full...well said GH. :) I always do a downpayment. This way, if you DO get screwed, you're not completely screwed and you NEVER release an actual file of anything you worked on until you're paid in full. Decent quality mp3's are good enough to get the point across. 192kb or above.
 
Actually MT, get half down if possible, or they pay by the session. So they either come with money each time and pay up front, or you don't do the session. It sucks that you have to be that way, but let me tell you man, people get funny with money. It can change an entire situation faster than you can turn your head to the side. You have to have a little pow wow with everyone involved in this (excluding the musicians) and just tell it like it is. This way everyone is on the same page before you even begin and everyone knows what is expected of them.
 
I think your $10 per hour price is way too lenient. You'd still be a bargain even at $25 or $30 per hour, so you may want to rethink your pricing. This stuff takes a lot of work, and for that work, whether you are a pro or a novice, you should be paid for it. Are there studio's in your area that are cheaper than $30 per hour? If so, what do they offer and how good are they? Never under-price yourself brother. If you are decent at what you do, price what you feel you are worth. We don't ever want to jack anyone's jaws in this field, but you have to make a buck for the time. You figure, if you were working a part time job during this recording time, you'd be making a few bucks. Time is money...money is time. You have to be able to offer something good for that money that maybe no one else is offering.
 
For example, with my services here in my studio, I offer things that no other engineer would do. Am I pricey? For some things, yes, but I've also been in the industry doing this stuff for a long time and work with some credible clients. But you get more than you pay for with me and I have NEVER had an unsatisfied customer or broken ties with someone on bad terms. I've had a few guys that weren't crazy about my work for their particular vision, but never anyone that was so mad, they stormed out of here without paying or yelled that they would never come back. But hey, this can happen from time to time no matter how good you are in this field. You can't please everyone. If you can make fixes and alterations to please your clients while being a people person, you shouldn't have any problems. Though you can't be too stuck in your ways on certain things, if you are a decent audio engineer, you should never be afraid to tell them your thoughts in a professional way that doesn't seem like you are trying to alter their vision. Listen to them, see their vision through, add your input when you feel you can make a difference for the better, and just try to enjoy it.
 
Also, make sure you outline what you do and what you do not do. People will take advantage of you at every turn in this field with "hey, can ya do this and this for me too" and you feel good about it, so you say yes and then you add 100 more hours to the project. Be nice, welcome things with open arms, but stand tall and be firm when you need to be or you'll get taken advantage of in a heart-beat.
 
One last thing, and I really think this is important...especially for your reputation. I understand that you are excited about this job and you hope that more good things come from it. This also means that you need to really do some good work here that will give you more credibility as an engineer. That said, sometimes the visions of clients aren't always good ones. Just because they are paying for something doesn't mean it can't be altered to sound better. For example, if something sounds absolutely horrible to you and they are cool with it, explain why you feel it sounds horrible and show them YOUR vision on what may make it better. The reason being, if you are too much of a "yes man" in this business, it can ruin your reputation. Your name goes on this project too...you want to be proud of it also. When someone hears it, you want them to say "wow, where the heck did you guys record that!?" So the things you do not only represent the band and the songs, but yourself as well.
 
I can't tell you how many times a "yes man" has ruined his reputation. What sounds good to a band at the time to where they force an engineer to do something horrible, will in time wake up the band that they have made a bad decision. And, when they play it for someone and that someone may say "sheesh, the sound isn't so good guys" the first thing they will do, is blame YOU! "Yeah, we know, that's the last time we'll use that studio". Bands talk any crap they can to make themselves look better than they are. It's the nature of the business unfortunately...so make sure EVERYONE (including yourself) is happy with the final product before they leave your studio for the last time. You need to be happy too...don't just do what they tell you while hating every minute for the sake of "a job".
 
I know that's a catch 22 especially if you are not an experienced engineer. You're just happy to have the work and a project of this magnitude. However, we can't let the excitement totally blind us from the truth, or what might be blatantly obvious. The key in all of this is to form a team with these guys. A team that has an understanding and a fantastic means of communication. A team that can sit down and look at each other after listening to the finished product and have a vote saying whether or not we are all happy with this and what can be done to make everyone happy. A team that is not afraid to say "I think we should try something different here, would that be ok?" A team that isn't afraid to tell a musician they just paid a bunch of money that he is not playing something right or that there are aritfacts or timing issues in his/her playing. Never be intimidated by anyone no matter who they are. Remember, they may be skilled or may have made it higher up the ladder than you, but they still eat, sleep, pay bills, bleed and poo the same as you do...and most of all, they are human and can make mistakes that they may not see as well.
 
The closer we get to a project, the more we can sometimes miss the obvious...and this can happen to a team that is living the project. So if you hear something or something is not quite as it should be, speak up in a professional and courteous way that doesn't make anyone feel cornered or pressed up against a wall. Show them your vision...allow them to A/B with theirs vs. yours...communicate and this should be an awesome experience for you. Sorry for the novel, but I felt this might have been a good read for you. I wish you the best of luck and hope you can share some of this project with us when you are done with it.

Jeff Evans


Here are some ideas. If a band did all the pre production and rehearsed well prior to any recording, you would need at least 4 hours to setup and track one song at least three times (eg 3 takes) Then allow 2 to 3 hours for overdubs and 2 to 3 hours for vocals and harmonies. Now you are up to near 10 hours. Maybe throw in 2 hours for any keys and percussion parts etc or just over run. So with an 8 hour mix you are looking at 20 hours per song and 200 hours to do it all and that is staying right on time and with a better quality band.

Even if you were to charge $40/Hr and that is not great, then it is an $8000 budget. I would not do it under $10,000.  And 4 payments. One up front, two during and one final. Your $3500 looks pretty bad in comparison.

Well said as always Jeff. You've quickly become one of my favorite posters on here as well as the infinite wisdom you share on everything. :) Darn shame you're so far away from me or I'd be hangin out with you talking shop like a little grammar school girl. LOL! :)
 
I gotta ask you though, I felt the same as you in thinking "pff, 10k or no deal". But at this stage of the game, we don't know how confident MTG may feel about himself. Listening to his material, I thought it sounded pretty good...but when you work for/with others, as you know it sometimes becomes a different ballgame. I'm sure you can remember when you were learning the ropes. You knew something was worth a certain amount to you, but you may have been hesitant to charge that much, right? I know I sure have been down that road many times before. It's really a grey area to be honest. I think one of the key things in engineering is to alway have control of every situation even if you have to fake it. LOL! There has to be that sense of "pff, no worries guys, there's nothing we can't do" that I think really keeps people feeling all warm and cozy. I've been in a few spots like that. That's when you take a break and disappear for 30 minutes and call one of your guru's....and man, let me tell you, I've reached out to quite a few guru's in my time! LMAO!
 
It's probably a good idea for him to gauge what some of the other studio's are doing in his area. Since he doesn't consider himself a pro, he knows to stay away from the pro rates...which as you and I both know, are pretty pricey. I'd see what the middle of the road studio's are doing and fall somewhere under them...this way he's not totally putting stress on himself, ya know? For example, most of the decent studio's around here are $80.00 per hour and higher. Then we have the level B dudes that are $40 to $50 per hour and of course the guys that are trying to improve their skills doing it for $20-$35 per hour. I would think based on the stuff I heard from him that $35-$40 would be a good price. Sorry if that sounds like I'm judging you MTG, I'm really just trying to be fair for both you and your client. You're definitely better that $10 per hour brother, that's for sure. Or, you just go with $500 per song "not to exceed a certain amount of hours" or something. But Jeff is right in what he says...it just can sound a little tough to call being on your end because I know you want to do the right thing yet you don't want to beat yourself up and not make enough. :)

mattplaysguitar


If you're looking for efficiency in recording, I'd be tempted to not record on a song per song basis - at least with drums.

Drum set up is HUGE. If you spend half a day setting up the drums, then move onto bass, guitar, vox, then the next day start all over again, you're wasting time in all that setup. If on the other hand you have enough space and mics and preamps that you can leave the drum kit exactly as it was, you could do a song by song basis - but you really want to bring in the first drummer, record ALL his parts, then second drummer, ALL his parts, then move onto the bass, ALL his parts, etc. Now this method may not be feasable with the number of overlapping musicians, and it MIGHT not give you as good takes per song due to the disjointedness (but if they are experienced enough it shouldn't be much of an issue), but it's going to give you more consistency over the album (everything sounds like it was recorded the same way - like an album, not an assortment of songs) and be much faster and more efficient.

If your gear is extensive and you have PLENTY of space to not require to disassemble ANYTHING, then by all means, go the song by song recording, it'll probably give you better results, and be just as quick (or nearly), but otherwise, record this thing section by section. As for charging, if you're going to give them a good result (if you think your skills are really not too bad) then you should be charging upwards from $3000. This amount of set-up for the recording alone is no easy task. One or two songs for a friend is OK, but recording an album, friend or not, you're gonna want to charge that **** - it's just too much of your time. Talk to the client and work out what his budget is like. Find out how much other studios are charging and negotiate with him with respect to that price.

+100! Great post Matt! The only issue there...what happens if all the drummers want to use their own kit per song? LOL! It would be way cool if he could set up one kit and let them all come in and play their parts...but you know how that can go. ;)

WOW thanks everyone...great advice and prospective from all of you.

Jeff - thanks for you confidence, I'll need that going forward. I agree that the pre-production and rehearsal of the songs is a critical part to success. I'll make sure he knows that the songs need to be well rehearsed and ready.

Danny - I feel I should give you a % or a co-producer liner on the album Seriously thanks for your input man and your encouraging words as well. I live in Southern California so there are a ton of studios around here. The one that's three miles from my home (CA Sound Studios) is charging $800 a song but that includes mastering & 50 Cd's (who uses Cd's anymore) and it's a nice studio. I've worked with one of their producers Ronnie King on a couple of projects, he's a cool cat. I'll probably recommend them for mastering. I have a make shift drum room using office cubicles. That kit will be the one we'll use on all the songs. The drummers will more than likely bring their own snare, peddle and cymbals but the mics can stay put.

Matt - The client has 10 songs but I'm going to start off with recording 5 and see how it goes. I'm gonna see if we can track the drums and bass for all the songs on a Saturday/Sunday schedule and have the drummers come by Friday night to help set up. I'm a bass player and I know what the client likes (round bottom punch) so I can dial that in Friday night too. Then schedule a weekend of guitar tacking, then a weekend of keyboards/percussion tracking,  then a weekend of vocal tracking. Do the same kinda thing for each weekend. Have the musician come the night before to get a good set up so that Sat/Sun is spent on getting the best possible takes. Plus that Friday night will be a good "getting to know you" time. Maybe we can BBQ and have a meal together and talk about expectations. I have a nice backyard with a pool and hot tub, so between my World Famous BBQ chicken and the hot tub everyone should be good to good for Saturday

Then I can charge him weekend rates (1/2 payment on Sat & the other 1/2 on Sun). Then when it comes to editing and mixing I can charge him by the hour and give him a bill at the end of each song. If the bill isn't paid then I don't work on the next song, what do you think?

CA Sound Studio charges $450 for a 8hr block. Maybe I can charge $225 per day, $450 for the weekend? Four weekends is $1800 + $20 per hour for editing and mixing, what do you guys think? I don't think I'll bill him for the pre-production time or the Friday night set up time, at least not yet.

Thoughts, questions, concerns

MTG: Ah you're quite welcome. I just figured I'd give you another side since you already got incredible feedback from the others. :) Hahaha, you're too kind on the co-producer thing. :) How about something that may be even cooler? Consider me for the mastering. I'll not only be your second set of ears, but I'll help you out with the mixes as you go along if need be...which is a part of my service. :) Send me a message sometime and I'll explain it to you if you're interested.

Ah, I forgot you were in Cali. Tough business out there. It's good you'll have the one kit going on and will let them just change up their snare, cyms etc. In my opinion, the drums are always the hardest because you usually get one shot at them. Once you break them down, you'll never get that same sound again no matter what you try. It's actually like that for every mic'd situation. But when the drums are done, you'll be in good shape. It's not that they are hard to capture (well, sometimes they can be depending on what you're presented with kit wise or mic wise) but sometimes hard to hone in on and deal with bleed etc.

It's just a tedious process no matter how many times you've done it. These days bro, I run midi triggers on every kit I mic up. The reason being, it's an awesome safety net as well as a perfect reinforcement to what you capture with the mics. I'd definitely consider that if you have the resources to do so. I always come armed with my Roland brain and my triggers in every studio I work in. Even if I don't use the midi tracks I create, it sure is nice to have them just in case. Just about every studio out there right now is using some sort of hybrid in with their real drums. Whether it be a snare sample or a kick...or even a complete 50/50 drum replacement, they're doing it. They may use 70% real drums with samples at 30% to just add a bit more dimension. Or they may not be able to get the right crack out of a snare or punch out of a kick, so they will mix a sample in with the real drums and hybrid. But it never hurts to have a little extra cushion. :)

I'm not sure I concur:

IIRC, I think Peter Paul and Mary recorded "Puff" in one evening - ha ha!  (Or was that "Leaving on a Jet", LOL).

There's no reason you and I can't record a hit album in 3 hours with Band-in-the-Box -- LOL!  NOT!

Seriously: Having collab'd and produced for many of you; I'd honestly state: it also depends on the artist, genre, producer, experience, and a lot of inspired blessings from heaven or hell, band tidiness, etc.  JMO/IMHO.

I'm certain many of us producers would consider 300 hours per song an epic investment worthy of every minute; albeit, I've only been producing the last 3-7 years.  I'd approach my oil-paintings the same way ... like building a gazebo vs. building house vs. bearing and raising your child (also a musical production, IMHO)