MetalTeK
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Studio Headphones
Yea, I'm in the market for a set of "cans" for mixing and mastering my music. I can no longer waste hours in the middle of the night, mixing at low volumes, trying not to wake anyone. Only to find the next day when I can really "crank it up", it sounds like crap.
I'm trying to understand the differences in headphones. I had a great set of JVC's but they're K.I.A. and they were not studio cans. From what I've been reading, "studio" cans tend to have a flatter frequency range and therefore, aren't going to sound as good as a HQ set of regular cans.
I mean it kinda makes sense to me that cans with a wide frequency are going to make crappy audio sound better than it actually does. And that a set with a narrow frequency range will allow you to bring out a better final result when mixing and mastering.
Am I correct in what I'm saying here? And should I stick with "studio" cans?
Thanks people,
MetalTeK
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batsbrew
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/06 12:21:07
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do not use headphones for mixing, or mastering.
use them to check mixes and mastering sessions, but they are not going to ever give you the information you need to accurately dial in a mix.
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MetalTeK
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/06 13:05:59
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batsbrew
do not use headphones for mixing, or mastering.
use them to check mixes and mastering sessions, but they are not going to ever give you the information you need to accurately dial in a mix.
I researched what you said, and that seems to be the consensus of the music world. So thanks for saving me $$$. I don't have $300 to drop an a pair of KRK's at the moment. So, while my PC speakers are not Studio Monitors, they are (don't laugh) top of the line 2.1 Altec Lansing's that so far have given me pretty descent results. So even my "PC" speakers would be better than using headphones?
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Ron Vogel
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/06 13:13:40
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Well, not to scare you...but $300 KRK's probably won't be any better than what you got.
Of the bargain-basement monitors the best translation would be with the Yamaha HS50's (but they are not pleasant to listen to).
You really need to get into the $500-800 monitor range for something that's getting into entry-level pro stuff.
What is probably not helping you is mixing with a sub in a 2.1 system. It's done everyday, but seasoned guys will only check mixes on them. They can really get in the way doing a full mixdown.
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MetalTeK
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/06 13:42:36
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Okay.....thanks a lot guys.
One more question: In your opinion would I be better off mixing with the sub-woofer just completely turned off? And then like you said, just turning it back on to check the mix?
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batsbrew
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/06 13:52:19
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probably so.
subs, are nice and all, but if you're not really dialed in with them (treated room, good eq treatment all the way down the line) then they can cause more harm than good.
but it will take a lot of trial and error to dial in a mix using any system that you cannot trust, so you'll end up doing mixes by:
1. mixes with just speakers
2. mixes with sub added.
3. checked against earbuds, headphones, (other) speakers.
4. burned and checked in the car, buddies stereo, work computer, everywhere you can hear playback.
bottom line is, it's almost impossible to get good mixes FAST, with a super budget system in an untreated room.
if it's a critical mix, for a cd release, i'd rent studio time and do mixes there.
you'll walk away from it knowing what you got.
otherwise, just spend a LOT of time learning your system, against what you hear on playback in other places.
use a visual tool like SPAN or HarBal, to help you while you learn your system's playback anomolies.
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Starise
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/06 14:30:56
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Bat knows his stuff. I had a lot of anomalies in my space.......and a few other things that just weren't right.
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/06 21:10:13
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batsbrew
do not use headphones for mixing, or mastering.
use them to check mixes and mastering sessions, but they are not going to ever give you the information you need to accurately dial in a mix.
Yarbles, as long as you know what you are doing you can mix and master using headphones, yes check your mix on moniter speakers but as long as the heaphones are decent, no problems. Of course I have a set of Beyerdynamic DT990's. Peace Ben
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batsbrew
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/06 21:59:05
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i'll say it again, do not trust headphones to mix on.
your mixes will not translate on all systems if you do so.
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Beagle
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/06 22:18:19
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completely agree with batsbrew on this. using headphones as a "check" during mixing and mastering isn't a bad idea, but using them exclusively is.
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/06 23:45:28
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Mine do!!! but then again I have over 10 years of audio engineering experience and over 25 years of listening experience. I also own Beyerdynamic 990's (they are designed to mix and master on) I don't know if beagal and batsbrew mix on something that hi end.
Finally I have a formula and apply it, using a spectrum analyser and knowing your average levels go a long way in making up the deficiency's of any headphones, not that mine have any!!!
Cavet(Honestly my mixes do translate but it has taken 10 years to get to that point and if you go to my soundcloud page there are good, bad and really good mixes and masters)
I have not always owned things like Tannoy monitors and Beyerdynamic Headphones and I have only owned my outboard TL Audio A2 mastering compressor for a year.
Peace Ben
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Rain
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/07 00:18:16
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I just don't know how one can guess a mix without speakers. Sounds are heard in perfect isolation - i.e. guitar that's panned at 9 o'clock will still reach your right hear with speakers. With headphones, only the remaining fraction of that part will reach your right ear. As a result, the centered kick may appear right on target, loud and punchy. But once you pull out the headphones, it's buried in the mix because the sound blends - it's not isolated hard left and hard right. The opposite is true - sounds that seem properly mixed with headphones just stand out too loud or too clear. That's why we use cans for mixing in the first place - to isolate sounds and really focus on details. But would you paint a whole canvas through a magnifying glass? When mixing, I'll often step out of the sweet spot, walk around the room and listen from a less ideal position - sort of a reality check. To me, it's crucial. I can't see how I'd do that with headphones. As for frequency analyzer - one of the reasons we use them in the first place is to find spots where there is energy that's not always as easily to ear. Guessing what that odd peak you see at 40Hz mid-left is exactly, which instruments generates it or what interaction between instruments generates it and figuring out just how much should be taken off FROM WHERE without actually properly hearing it... Not sure. I appreciate trying to focus on the positive and encouraging people to use what they have, but I really don't think that advising them to try something that would require: Unheard of quality headphones + years of experience mixing both with and without headphones + a lot of simple blind luck. can morally be condone. It's like sending a someone who took their first Kung Fu lesson in a fight with a Shaolin master. Of course, a prodigy could beat the odds... in a hollywood movie.
post edited by Rain - 2011/09/07 00:24:19
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Rain
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/07 00:35:02
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BenMMusTech
Yarbles, as long as you know what you are doing
You do realize that this is as far from a precise set of instruction as it gets? You can also mix w/o listening as long as "you know what you are doing". If you know, you don't need to check. You just "know". Mixing isn't about knowing as much as it's about "listening" and making decisions. My question would be: Do YOU know what you are doing, spreading such advices? Do you realize that it's the equivalent of telling someone: Sure you can write a hit and make millions - just be a genius and lucky?
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/07 05:43:42
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BenMMusTech
Mine do!!! but then again I have over 10 years of audio engineering experience and over 25 years of listening experience. I also own Beyerdynamic 990's (they are designed to mix and master on) I don't know if beagal and batsbrew mix on something that hi end.
Finally I have a formula and apply it, using a spectrum analyser and knowing your average levels go a long way in making up the deficiency's of any headphones, not that mine have any!!!
Cavet(Honestly my mixes do translate but it has taken 10 years to get to that point and if you go to my soundcloud page there are good, bad and really good mixes and masters)
I have not always owned things like Tannoy monitors and Beyerdynamic Headphones and I have only owned my outboard TL Audio A2 mastering compressor for a year.
Peace Ben
I've owned various sets of phones over the years, including some which are a lot more "high end" than the 990's, and I'd NEVER trust a mix that was crafted on any set of phones, no matter what make/model/price.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/07 05:45:55
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I just don't know how one can guess a mix without speakers. Sounds are heard in perfect isolation - i.e. guitar that's panned at 9 o'clock will still reach your right hear with speakers. With headphones, only the remaining fraction of that part will reach your right ear.
As a result, the centered kick may appear right on target, loud and punchy. But once you pull out the headphones, it's buried in the mix because the sound blends - it's not isolated hard left and hard right. The opposite is true - sounds that seem properly mixed with headphones just stand out too loud or too clear.
That's why we use cans for mixing in the first place - to isolate sounds and really focus on details. But would you paint a whole canvas through a magnifying glass?
When mixing, I'll often step out of the sweet spot, walk around the room and listen from a less ideal position - sort of a reality check. To me, it's crucial. I can't see how I'd do that with headphones. + several million, especially the bits in bold.
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MetalTeK
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/07 09:57:36
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Looks like a debate in here. =)
Well I've made up my mind. Now that I think about it. I do recall using phones to get a good mix, only to be dumbfounded when I ran the mix through my speakers. So I'm not even going to bother with the them.
@Ben: I've dabbled in this over the years, and have only recently tried to get serious. So for me to go down the road that you did , would be a very long trip as you said yourself.
I did read on some other forums that it was possible to do if you were very intimate and experienced with your gear. To the point that you already know how things are going to translate. I listened to some of your stuff and it sounds really good. So, I don't think anyone is saying it can't be done. They are just saying it's fundamentally, not a good idea.
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Beagle
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/07 10:16:28
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Rain
I just don't know how one can guess a mix without speakers. Sounds are heard in perfect isolation - i.e. guitar that's panned at 9 o'clock will still reach your right hear with speakers. With headphones, only the remaining fraction of that part will reach your right ear.
As a result, the centered kick may appear right on target, loud and punchy. But once you pull out the headphones, it's buried in the mix because the sound blends - it's not isolated hard left and hard right. The opposite is true - sounds that seem properly mixed with headphones just stand out too loud or too clear.
That's why we use cans for mixing in the first place - to isolate sounds and really focus on details. But would you paint a whole canvas through a magnifying glass?
When mixing, I'll often step out of the sweet spot, walk around the room and listen from a less ideal position - sort of a reality check. To me, it's crucial. I can't see how I'd do that with headphones.
As for frequency analyzer - one of the reasons we use them in the first place is to find spots where there is energy that's not always as easily to ear. Guessing what that odd peak you see at 40Hz mid-left is exactly, which instruments generates it or what interaction between instruments generates it and figuring out just how much should be taken off FROM WHERE without actually properly hearing it... Not sure.
I appreciate trying to focus on the positive and encouraging people to use what they have, but I really don't think that advising them to try something that would require:
Unheard of quality headphones + years of experience mixing both with and without headphones + a lot of simple blind luck.
can morally be condone.
It's like sending a someone who took their first Kung Fu lesson in a fight with a Shaolin master. Of course, a prodigy could beat the odds... in a hollywood movie.
EXCELLENT post, Rain!!! Rain
BenMMusTech
Yarbles, as long as you know what you are doing
You do realize that this is as far from a precise set of instruction as it gets? You can also mix w/o listening as long as "you know what you are doing". If you know, you don't need to check. You just "know". Mixing isn't about knowing as much as it's about "listening" and making decisions.
My question would be: Do YOU know what you are doing, spreading such advices? Do you realize that it's the equivalent of telling someone: Sure you can write a hit and make millions - just be a genius and lucky?
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MetalTeK
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/07 10:21:04
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Oh yea, almost forgot why I came in here.
@Batsbrew: I checked out Har-bal. I had never heard of it, but it looks amazing. It seems though, that it's vehemently despised among professional engineers. Lmao.....I read post after post of people basically calling it blasphemous, useless, and a waste of money, among other things. These were all "pro" engineers mind you.
So, I'm assuming the reason is because they view Har-bal as kind of a cheat. Or it somehow accomplishes something that the "pros" have spent years on honing. As if it somehow takes something away from their skills, because now everyone can do it. Or something, that just the vibe I got when reading all these posts on another forum.
So that just peaks my curiosity. I'm not in a "mixing skills integrity competition". If a program helps me achieve better results then I don't see what the big deal is.
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batsbrew
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/07 11:00:23
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heheh It seems though, that it's vehemently despised among professional engineers. yeah, well, if they are pros, they don't need it. but for the REST of the REAL world, it's a great LEARNING TOOL. AND IT WORKS. as far as headphones go, i'm sure there are some PROS that can do great mixes in headphones, because they've got the years of hard work to back up the decisions, but i have to ask, how many pro studios have you been in? or know about? and how many of those 'pros' are mixing on headphones? i rest my case.
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Kalle Rantaaho
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/07 11:10:58
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batsbrew
i'll say it again, do not trust headphones to mix on.
your mixes will not translate on all systems if you do so.
Many people simply have to use headphones if they want to mix when they have the time for it. There's no denying that. You can learn to do proper mixes with headphones, it just takes a little more effort.
MetalTek
" I mean it kinda makes sense to me that cans with a wide frequency are going to make crappy audio sound better than it actually does. And that a set with a narrow frequency range will allow you to bring out a better final result when mixing and mastering. " You have a misunderstanding there. It's got nothing to do with the frequency range. The frequency ranges of the headphones are about the same. It's hard to find (serious) cans nowadays that do less than 20 Hz - 20 kHz. It's other things that sweeten the sound in Hi-Fi headphones (and speakers).
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Rain
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/07 12:41:00
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MetalTeK,
While I wouldn't advise mixing with headphones, if you have time available to spend on your mixes using headphones, do so. Work on it, spend as much time as you can on it, it'll pay off.
What I don't recommend is that you try and finish your mixes using headphones - but this doesn't mean that you cannot at least try things. Since they do allow you to hear details with much clarity, they can be a great tool to help you learn. The disadvantage of exaggerating certain things can actually turned into a profit - just like one may exaggerate the compression to adjust the attack or just like you can apply an unrealistic boost and sweep around frequencies to identify a problematic frequency, i.e., a nasty ringing frequency in a snare.
I think of it as studying-practicing. Save the results of your experimentation as a version, so that you don't overwrite your real mix. Sometimes, you'll end up w/ results that you can use in your real mix. All the better. Sometimes not, but at any rate, you'll be learning things and getting to know your headphones. It pays off. Just don't make decisions using them.
With that in mind, you don't need to spend $300 on them, unless you have that sort of money to throw in for a secondary tool.
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Ron Vogel
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/07 13:32:50
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I'm in a situation where volume is a real issue. Went from having an isolated and dedicated space to one right under my kids rooms...and the floor is NOT insulated. I have roughly 4pm to 7:30pm to do loud stuff on the weekdays, and I'm lucky to fit anything in there because of the lead boots stomping around, or the fact I'm wiped after work. After 7:30 volume has to come WAY down. 90% of each song is writing and or arranging...headphones are fine for that. I do a little mixing as I go on the monitors. Weekend nights are a bit better.
However, because of my own personal limitations, mixing at low volumes has immensely improved my mixes by reducing room interactions. It's fun to rock out, but in all reality it's faster and better results with low level mixing.
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MetalTeK
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/07 18:12:46
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Well I've said it before, this forum really kicks ass!
It's great to get so many opinions from people that obviously know their business even though some opinions may differ. So, thanks to everyone for chiming in. You've all given me a lot of food for thought. I feel like I've learned a lot in the last day or so by listening to you guys and then running off an researching things based on your comments.
Thanks,
MetalTeK
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Tombo777
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/09 03:37:54
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You can mix using ANY speaker or headphones.... Much of today's music is enjoyed through headsets....so mixing in them is not a bad thing,
What I was taught to do was learn my monitors, Stripe a couple tracks with professional recordings of music very similar to mine and mute them until mix time. Then I listened to those tracks though the same monitors (or headset) and tweaked the EQ for my listening pleasure.
I then try as much as possible to match the lows, mids, and highs of my tracks with the pro tracks so I am not way out of bed trying to compensate for monitor or room deficiencies. BOTH the pro tracks and mine are worked with under the same circumstances and environment.
I do not use the Sub in this process. I have found this method works just as well with headphones although I have no need to mix in headphones I find much of today's music is listened to in head phones nowadays so that's not a bad way to mix. There is software that will tale a freq map of the reference track and apply it to your mix but I prefer to do it manually.
Monitors are only "reference" and not a true representation. When you "learn your monitors whether headphones or Boxes. You will get to know them and not need the reference tracks anymore. Guys likely still use the Yamaha NSMs to mix on because they know them.
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dappa1
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/09 11:25:52
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Focusrite have VRM tech which allows you to monitors mixes through ur headphones using virtual speakers to get certain affects.
It works well with my Sony Headphones and gives a good and detailed account of what would actually happen in each circumstance using headphones!
Excellent!
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/09 12:23:56
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Here's my 2 cents worth on headphones. A few months ago, I got the bug for a new, nice, sweet, high dollar set of cans. So.... off to the music stores to see what's available after reading a few reviews. So I get there and ask to audition several of the sets above $200. One set came recommended by the clerk and IIRC they were $300. So, I put them on and plug into my MP3 player since I know what that sounds like... it has my music on it and I've heard it in the studio and on my nice $15 set of Creative 630 ear buds with sound reducing soft rubber cups. I listen for a few minutes to both sets the clerk was kind enough to get for me to listen with.... then I pop the $15 buds back in.... aside from the obvious difference in feel, the frequency response was damn near identical. I could not tell that the music was any clearer, or the bass fuller sounding or the highs crisper..... nope.... the buds for $15 kicked both the expensive can's collective butts. I offer to let the clerk hear the buds and he smiled and said... "Yeah... I kinda figured that. " Then we ended up talking for a while about that topic. I'm not telling you NOT to buy some nice cans, and if I wasn't convinced that the buds sounded 98% as good as $300 cans, I would probably have bought them that evening. I do use cans. I have a set of el-cheapo Yamaha cans I bought for $30 on sale one day at a different store. Would I use them to mix and master.... No! I use them to track and to listen during the M/M final stages just to be sure the mix is still good on cheap headphones. Now.... if my monitors were damaged and not working and I had a deadline to meet, and if I didn't have the 1.5 hrs of time it would take round trip to buy some new monitors..... would I use the cans in a pinch... Absolutely Yes. edit: I have used the buds in the studio too while tracking. Headphones have a certain amount of bleed due to a number of factors. With the buds, I can achieve more then enough volume, and work close to a very sensitive mic, and since buds are different and they are the sealed noise reducing kind, the music stays in and I get very low bleed levels.
post edited by Guitarhacker - 2011/09/09 12:28:21
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Anubis
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/09 15:46:21
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Dappa1
Focusrite have VRM tech which allows you to monitors mixes through ur headphones using virtual speakers to get certain affects.
It works well with my Sony Headphones and gives a good and detailed account of what would actually happen in each circumstance using headphones!
Excellent!
I use this too. I'm using it with my Senn HD 380 Pro. They used the Senn HD 280 Pro to develop the VRM software so I'm hoping I'm getting accurate results. Or at least I'm hearing what they heard. You got to be careful with the panning because the software emulation puts you in front of the monitors and therefore blends the stereo field.
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Rain
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/10 12:25:47
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Tombo777
You can mix using ANY speaker or headphones.... Much of today's music is enjoyed through headsets....so mixing in them is not a bad thing,
I guess it depends on what you are after. I do understand your point, and the reality of it is obvious. Last time I was exposed to pseudo trendy music, it was obvious to me that the mixes were done by reasonably talented amateurs, but amateurs nonetheless, most likely working with a pretty humble setup. I am not putting "amateurs" down, and I don't consider myself an expert at mixing - but if one thing, I can definitely hear it. It had no depth to speak of - all one-dimension. The mixes weren't all that bad in terms of frequencies, but there's a whole lot more than EQ to a mix. Maybe it would have sounded better on an iPod. But when your music is played in public spaces, you can't count on the iPod to make up for your bad mix. To be honest, people don't care, and will probably care less and less, as this is what they are now constantly exposed to. That is what music is to them. They have fun listening to songs on YouTube, they enjoy listening to music on their MP3 players while doing something else... Much of today's music is also disposable and interchangeable, anyway. But some people do care. A good mix will translate equally well on a decent set of speakers or on an iPod. I don't see why one would compromise with their own music just to comply with the fact that a lot of people can't tell - unless that's exactly your target audience. If you can't hear something, it's pretty hard to fix it. And that's assuming that you know exactly what to tweak for your mix to translate properly. Of course, on your set of monitors, your newest song can probably tweaked to sound a bit like your reference album. And of course your reference album sounds good on your monitors - it was made to. But play both through an entirely different set-up, and they most likely won't sound similar anymore. It's like trying to compare your home-made movie to a blockbuster, but comparing both on a lo res display. Of course it helps - but you're still looking at it in Lo Res. It may look similar in that mode, but when you get to see your movie in quality mode, you may be in for a surprise. That's basically advising people to guess and be lucky. In the end, do the best with what you have - a good song is a good song. But if you're trying to improve your mixes (which I think is part of the reason we are here for), then you may want to try to improve your listening environment and to get decent monitors.
post edited by Rain - 2011/09/10 12:36:45
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/09/10 16:56:38
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The standard advice is don't mix with headphones. Without looking up the answer as to why, on google, this is my take on it from my experience in music.
When you have cans on you are not getting the speaker interaction with the room and with the space around it. You're in a closed environment.
Also, headphones from different manufacturers have a totally different sound. That sound generally has a bias in one direction or another. I've seen several models that offer "enhanced bass response". What exactly does that mean to us as audio engineers? To the person on the street it means it's gonna thump more in the bass.
So if you choose that set of cans, your end result music will likely have bass that is not as loud as it needs to be in a balanced mix.
I've heard other cans that were really weak sounding with bass. So if you mix with them, people will be blowing the woofers out or reaching for the bass knob to turn it down.
The reason most engineers and recording enthusiasts use monitors is that they are "supposed" to have a very flat frequency response across the spectrum. You want accuracy and truth when you are mixing and especially when mastering. If not, your mix will sound really good on the cans you used to mix but it might sound pretty crappy on other systems. That is the same reason we don't simply use stereo speakers to mix and master. THey too are built to sound a certain way.
Just my observations.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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JazzSinger
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Re:Studio Headphones
2011/10/06 04:24:35
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The distance from a headphone's driver to your eardrum is small and constant.
At around 10kHz and above, the wavelength of sound gets to that distance, causing total cancellation of certain frequencies.
With speakers you are always moving, so you will hear all the different higher frequencies.
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