Studio Power Amps

Author
Cactus Music
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
  • Total Posts : 8424
  • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
  • Status: offline
2016/02/28 14:37:16 (permalink)

Studio Power Amps

I run my Yamaha NMS10's from and old  Yamaha P2100 which is 120 Watts @ 8ohms and no fans. The perfect match for the NMS10's really. 
But it has had issues with the attentuators for a long time now and often I loose one channel until I sweep them back and forth. It's dieing. 
 
Most power amps seem to have fans.. that rules them out for a studio. 
I used to use an intigrated stereo amp but all of mine are also very old and have issues. 
Also a lot of amps now are Class D? Is this a good thing? 
 
Anyhow the reason for this thread is to get some input and see what those of you who still use passive speakers are running sucessfully. 
 
As example this is one solution I found. My brother has the RR2150 and it's stunning to say the least. But I certainly don't need the radio. It would be $750 including shipping. A pair of the 2200 would be $850 delivered. 
https://www.outlawaudio.com/products/2200.html
 
https://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html
 
 
 

Johnny V  
Cakelab  
Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
 http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
 
 
#1

15 Replies Related Threads

    mixmkr
    Max Output Level: -43.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3169
    • Joined: 2007/03/05 22:23:43
    • Status: offline
    Re: Studio Power Amps 2016/02/28 16:12:50 (permalink)
    I have an old Alesis RA150...no fans, totally inexpensive, and works great.  I think there are actually a fair amount of amps on the market without fans, if you start looking.

    some tunes: --->        www.masonharwoodproject.bandcamp.com 
    StudioCat i7 4770k 3.5gHz, 16 RAM,  Sonar Platinum, CD Arch 5.2, Steinberg UR-44
    videos--->https://www.youtube.com/user/mixmkr
     
    #2
    Cactus Music
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 8424
    • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
    • Status: offline
    Re: Studio Power Amps 2016/02/28 21:20:50 (permalink)
    Yes it seems a lot of Class D amps being more efficient can do away with a fan.
    I'm boning up on a lot of audiophile systems and of course these leads to ultra geeking!
     http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/amplifier-classes
     
    This one has my interest at the lower price points
    http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/cerwin-vega-cv-900-power-amplifier#productDetail
     
     

    Johnny V  
    Cakelab  
    Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
    3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
     http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
     
     
    #3
    mixmkr
    Max Output Level: -43.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3169
    • Joined: 2007/03/05 22:23:43
    • Status: offline
    Re: Studio Power Amps 2016/02/28 22:25:33 (permalink)
    If someone can hear the difference between decent amps, not pushed to their limits.....well...I'm not sure that's possible.  If you're nostalgic...get an old Crown D150a or similar.   For a low wattage amp, I don't see the need to spend $300 or so, unless you totally shy away from Asian made.....ya know...that big country with their name starting with a "C"

    some tunes: --->        www.masonharwoodproject.bandcamp.com 
    StudioCat i7 4770k 3.5gHz, 16 RAM,  Sonar Platinum, CD Arch 5.2, Steinberg UR-44
    videos--->https://www.youtube.com/user/mixmkr
     
    #4
    Paul P
    Max Output Level: -48.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2685
    • Joined: 2012/12/08 17:15:47
    • Location: Montreal
    • Status: offline
    Re: Studio Power Amps 2016/02/28 23:14:39 (permalink)
     
    No 100w hi-fi amp I've seen has a fan.  Isn't class D a square wave modulated to produce the frequencies ?  Not what I'd want for the best sound.  I think it's main purpose is volume out of cheap circuitry, not sound quality.

    Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
    #5
    Cactus Music
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 8424
    • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
    • Status: offline
    Re: Studio Power Amps 2016/02/28 23:46:45 (permalink)
    If you follow the link I posted above it explains the difference in classes of amps. It's complicated and do not even attempt to understand it fully without a degree in engineering.  
    But this I gleaned from the text: 
    Class A amp can have the best overall sound but they are inefficient so they generate a lot of heat and therefore the loud fans. Class D is a newer technology and are very efficient so they  not only weigh less, they don't generate much heat therefore will be quieter and often passive.
    A passive Class A amp will probably be 80 to 100 watts. My Yamaha P2100 is rated at 120 Watts and is passive but it has a huge heat sink around it and I keep my feet warm with it under my desk. 
     
    Class D is what is found in modern powered PA speakers and monitors. The reason being the weight and heat of a Class A or B would not be feasible. The speaker would catch on fire. 
    Sound quality can be an issue with any class of amp if poorly designed. There are certainly plenty of badly designed Class D amps. ( dare I say the B word) 
    Class D works best with a feedback loop to control it and matching the Amp to the speaker inside a cabinet, bi amping and all that is what make powered speakers a very good choice.  I have ditched my passive PA system. 
     
    And it is very tempting to go powered with a new set of Yamaha HS80's. They say they are a close replacement.  It might cost me the same to buy a good power amp.  
    But I hate to give up my NMS10's so therefore the research. 

    Johnny V  
    Cakelab  
    Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
    3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
     http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
     
     
    #6
    Cactus Music
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 8424
    • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
    • Status: offline
    Re: Studio Power Amps 2016/02/28 23:56:47 (permalink)
    mixmkr
    If someone can hear the difference between decent amps, not pushed to their limits.....well...I'm not sure that's possible.  If you're nostalgic...get an old Crown D150a or similar.   For a low wattage amp, I don't see the need to spend $300 or so, unless you totally shy away from Asian made.....ya know...that big country with their name starting with a "C"




    I sort of agree but the trouble is I do want the audiophile quality you get with the better amps.  And true 80 watts might be enough but I've been running the NMS10's with 125 watts and it's actually just the right amount. I don't think 80 would be enough. I believe the Amp is just as important as the quality of the speakers. 
    I have hooked these monitors up to some older integrated amps and it's not that good. These are respectable amps , like Technics, Sansui and Pioneer. But 65 - 80 watts was not enough. 

    Johnny V  
    Cakelab  
    Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
    3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
     http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
     
     
    #7
    wst3
    Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1979
    • Joined: 2003/11/04 10:28:11
    • Location: Pottstown, PA 19464
    • Status: offline
    Re: Studio Power Amps 2016/02/29 20:06:37 (permalink)
    I have a variety of older amplifiers from Crown, QSC, Haffler, and Heathkit (yeah, you read that right!)

    I've used a lot of others over the years. For the most part imperfections & non-linearities in the monitors swamp anything going on in the amplifiers. I have tried a couple of inexpensive Class-D amplifiers (in fairness this was several years ago) and I did not like them. I could hear the difference between them and the dinosaurs I own, and not in a good way.

    The only two amplifiers I think I can identify - in a positive way - with a blindfold are the Heathkit and any Bryston. They sound nothing alike, the Heathkit sounds pretty, and makes most monitors sound pretty, probably not what one wants in a studio setting! The Bryston makes most monitors sound better. I can't explain it, and I'm not in a position to spend that kind of money on an amplifier, so I don't even try<G>! (Actually, NAD used to make some really good sounding amplifiers, but they had a nasty habit of overheating in studio settings, and as someone pointed out, fans are not a good idea in a studio!)

    As a rule I try to avoid Class D amplifiers. That's become nearly impossible, and if you are using monitors with built in amplification I think it might actually be impossible.

    But for the most part any competently designed amplifier should sound good - there aren't a lot of great new ideas in amplifier topology for Class A or Class AB amplifiers. You might be able to detect a difference between an amplifier that uses feedback vs one that doesn't, but I'm not sure which one I'd pick as "better".
     
    The only thing you have to remember is that no one ever blew up a loudspeaker with an amplifier that was too big<G>! Other than that I'd just get a good Class AB, MOSFET amplifier, and there are lots of those around.

    -- Bill
    Audio Enterprise
    KB3KJF
    #8
    Cactus Music
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 8424
    • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
    • Status: offline
    Re: Studio Power Amps 2016/02/29 21:30:02 (permalink)
    Thanks Bill, good information and more less my experiences too. I might just have to look into having the old Yamaha repaired. It is the perfect match. I was thinking there might be a way to just bypass the attenuaters. I have always run them at 3 o clock but that position died, so then I turned them up to 4 o clock now that is crackling to. I'm running out of places pat 50 % that work. 

    Johnny V  
    Cakelab  
    Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
    3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
     http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
     
     
    #9
    WallyG
    Max Output Level: -74 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 833
    • Joined: 2013/05/03 11:37:52
    • Location: Arizona
    • Status: offline
    Re: Studio Power Amps 2016/03/01 21:03:27 (permalink)
    wst3
    I have a variety of older amplifiers from Crown, QSC, Haffler, and Heathkit (yeah, you read that right!)

     
    I'm sure there are many people on this forum that built Heathkits. I know I did. My first home stereo amp was a HH Scott kit with "Fire Bottles". Had a great sound! When I upgraded my stereo years later, I made a tough screen protective cage for it and used it as a back up amp for my band. Our base player's amp failed one night, (it was just a filter cap) and the Scott saved the evening.
     
    Walt
     

    Roland Jupiter 80, Roland D50, Roland Integra 7, Roland BK-7m, Yamaha Montage 6, ARP Odyssey, Excelsior Continental Artist, Roland FR-8X, 1967 Fender Jaguar, Fender Strat,  Fender 1965 Twin Reverb reissue, Selmer Trumpet, Akai EWI, Studio One 4 Professional, Melodyne Studio 4, Behringer X-Touch, RME Fireface UCX, MOTU MIDI Express XT - ADK Pro Audio Hex Xtreme 6 Core i7 4.5GHz, 64GB, 480GB SS, 3 X 3TB Hard Drives, Win 10, 2 X 27" & 1X 46" Monitors,
    My WEB site - www.gontowski.com/music
    #10
    Cactus Music
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 8424
    • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
    • Status: offline
    Re: Studio Power Amps 2016/03/01 22:59:49 (permalink)
    I'm certainly old enough to know what Heathkits were. 
    I had a good friend in grade 7 who built one for his bass amp. 
    I thought he was just being a cheap skate. His Dad was Scottish and his Mom Jewish so we used to bug him about his hereditary  thriftiness.  Turns out Jim was just a very smart guy. He was probably the person who turned me into a equipment geek.    

    Johnny V  
    Cakelab  
    Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
    3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
     http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
     
     
    #11
    mixmkr
    Max Output Level: -43.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 3169
    • Joined: 2007/03/05 22:23:43
    • Status: offline
    Re: Studio Power Amps 2016/03/02 00:14:37 (permalink)
    my Allied (Ratshack) still plays NPR in my shop.

    some tunes: --->        www.masonharwoodproject.bandcamp.com 
    StudioCat i7 4770k 3.5gHz, 16 RAM,  Sonar Platinum, CD Arch 5.2, Steinberg UR-44
    videos--->https://www.youtube.com/user/mixmkr
     
    #12
    batsbrew
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 10037
    • Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
    • Location: SL,UT
    • Status: offline
    Re: Studio Power Amps 2016/03/02 11:17:03 (permalink)
    i like, and use, hafler amps.
     
    in the past, i've used QSC, Yamaha, Crown, Carvin..... all good.
     
    don't get more than you need..
    but get a little more than you need,
    if you know what i mean

    Bats Brew music Streaming
    Bats Brew albums:
    "Trouble"
    "Stay"
    "The Time is Magic"
    --
    Sonar 6 PE>Bandlab Cakewalk>Studio One 3.5>RME BFP>i7-7700 3.6GHz>MSI B250M>G.Skill Ripjaws 4 series 16GB>Samsung 960 EVO m.2ssd>W 10 Pro
     
    #13
    wst3
    Max Output Level: -55.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 1979
    • Joined: 2003/11/04 10:28:11
    • Location: Pottstown, PA 19464
    • Status: offline
    Re: Studio Power Amps 2016/03/02 18:04:26 (permalink)
    batsbrew
    i like, and use, hafler amps.
     
    And, if you are the curious type there are some great modifications out there... never going to sound like a Bryston, but you can make them sound even better than they do stock.
     
    batsbrew
    don't get more than you need..
    but get a little more than you need,
    if you know what i mean

    Yup - always get just a wee bit more than you need. My basic, never violate it, rule of thumb is 20% more power, which works out to a paltry 1.5 dB. In reality I like to shoot for about 3 dB headroom above the loudspeaker rating.

    -- Bill
    Audio Enterprise
    KB3KJF
    #14
    Cactus Music
    Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 8424
    • Joined: 2004/02/09 21:34:04
    • Status: offline
    Re: Studio Power Amps 2016/03/02 20:25:21 (permalink)
    batsbrew
    don't get more than you need..
    but get a little more than you need,
    if you know what i mean


     
    That's why the Yamaha P2100 was perfect @ 125 Watts and the NMS10's are 100 watts. 
     
    I finding the specs on PA type power amps are not that great. And they are all overpowered @ generally 350 Watts. 
     
    Then all the audiophile systems are like $$$$. 
     
    I'm telling you,  the powered speakers are looking more and more like the best bet. 
    I'm looking at spending $700 on a proper power amp then I might as well just get the HS8's. 
    I'll just put the NMS10's in archival storage and let my grand kids find them when I croak. They'll be worth gold 30 years from now I bet.. 

    Johnny V  
    Cakelab  
    Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
    3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
     http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
     
     
    #15
    Paul P
    Max Output Level: -48.5 dBFS
    • Total Posts : 2685
    • Joined: 2012/12/08 17:15:47
    • Location: Montreal
    • Status: offline
    Re: Studio Power Amps 2016/03/02 22:09:10 (permalink)
     
    Personally, since I couldn't afford both high quality monitors and high quality hi-fi amp/speakers, I'd go with the latter since I listen much more than I mix.  I've never been convinced of the argument that hi-fi sounds too good to be useful for mixing, where you want sterile, neutral, harsh -  but predictable.  I'd much rather learn to translate the sound of great hi-fi speakers to a more general purpose sound - while enjoying everyday great sound reproduction - than translate/suffer recommended monitors that can't be used for anythings else.  You can be sure that the amp in powered monitors is about as cheap as it gets.

    Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
    #16
    Jump to:
    © 2024 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.1