Helpful ReplySub-mix levels question: which option is best?

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ULTRABRA
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2014/09/10 06:35:23 (permalink)

Sub-mix levels question: which option is best?

I have a piece made up of various soft synths.  Each soft synth output is routed to a sub-mix bus, which then goes to the Master.  The reason for this is so that I can move the volume of the entire piece up or down with one fader without changing the Master fader, which stays always at 0.
 
I found that the overall level of the piece was quite low, peaking at -12db.    I'd like to have a stereo pre-master peaking at -3db.
To achive this I have various options, and I do not know which is the best choice, to give the best quality - if anyone can advise/suggest which of the following is the best choice (or something else) :
 
1.  Take the level of the sub-mix up over 0 ----( it can go actually only as far as +6db.   Question:  does going over 0 on this sub-mix cause any lowering of quality of the signal?)
 
2.  Go to each individual soft synth track and increase the levels so the overall level of the entire piece to master bus is higher.   This can be quite time-consuming with many tracks.
 
3.  Use a limiter on the sub-mix to increase the levels before it reaches the master bus (or a limiter on the master bus itself).
 
4.  Make the stereo pre-master at -12db, this is an OK level and can be increased with a limiter when mastering.

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#1
ston
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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/10 07:53:07 (permalink)
ULTRABRA
2.  Go to each individual soft synth track and increase the levels so the overall level of the entire piece to master bus is higher.   This can be quite time-consuming with many tracks.

 
You could save yourself some time and fader-fiddling hassle by quick-grouping the soft synths and then bringing all their levels up together.
 
As an alternative, you could tweak the input trim control on your synth mix bus.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/11 08:20:01 (permalink)
In my opinion, -3dB is far too loud for a Pre mastered song.
 
Your -12dB is spot on the money and gives the Mastering guy plenty of room to work his magic.
 
In my opinion.

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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/11 10:05:49 (permalink)
In your case, the intermediate bus is unnecessary. You could just as easily route everything to the master and make your final volume adjustments there. The result would be exactly the same.
 
Busses are normally called for in order to group your tracks so that you can do something collectively to a subset of them. For an electronic instrumental like you're describing it's probably not needed, but doesn't hurt anything. In digital audio you can run signal through any number of busses without degradation.
 
-12dB is, as Jonesey says, spot on the money if you'll be sending the mix out for mastering or even if you'll be mastering it yourself later. Only if you want to master it within the project yourself would you need to raise the level, in which case you'd apply a limiter to the master bus. Otherwise, a limiter is neither required nor warranted unless you want to use it as an effect.
 
The mix sounds quiet to you because you're comparing it to mastered material. If you're listening to it in the car or an iPod, just turn it up. You don't have to be concerned with loudness until you're ready to distribute the song on a CD or MP3. If you want to get a preview of what that'll sound like, put a limiter on the master bus and use it to bring the volume up closer to commercial levels. Later, when you're ready to send it out for mastering, simply bypass the limiter before exporting. The mastering engineer will thank you for the conservative -12dB mix.


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Anderton
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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/11 10:30:50 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby chilldanny 2014/09/18 06:12:57
bitflipper
In your case, the intermediate bus is unnecessary. You could just as easily route everything to the master and make your final volume adjustments there. The result would be exactly the same.

 
And quick grouping, as referenced earlier, will give the same "one fader to rule them all" functionality aspect of a bus.
 
The mix sounds quiet to you because you're comparing it to mastered material. If you're listening to it in the car or an iPod, just turn it up. You don't have to be concerned with loudness until you're ready to distribute the song on a CD or MP3. If you want to get a preview of what that'll sound like, put a limiter on the master bus and use it to bring the volume up closer to commercial levels. Later, when you're ready to send it out for mastering, simply bypass the limiter before exporting. The mastering engineer will thank you for the conservative -12dB mix.



Can we make that paragraph a sticky on every forum related to digital audio and recording?
 
(Well I can dream, can't I?)

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Anonymungus!
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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/15 17:39:47 (permalink)
Hello - here's a related Question:  Does clip gain add any distortion/modulation to audio, especially if you go up & down a few times?

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robert_e_bone
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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/15 21:55:57 (permalink)
I have always understood you do not want to lower the gain early in the gain stage, only to have to raise it later.  In other words, fix things early in the gain staging.
 
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ULTRABRA
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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/16 06:55:26 (permalink)
Thanks for the input, really useful.
 
@bit:  Thanks for that comment about the Master - I always thought it best to keep Master at 0, but if the result is the same if I use a sub-master or Master for the overall levels, then obvouosly its much easier to use the Master (no setting up and routing all tracks to a sub-master).   So, as I understand it, I route all tracks to the Master, and adjust the level of everything by moving the Master fader, up or down so its either above or below 0 when exporting the final stereo wav.   
 
And re the -12db being an OK level - I wanted it higher not actually becuase it sounded better, I just thought it was better to add volume at the tracking stage, meaning I would need less limiting at the mastering stage (meaning:  I thought the quality of the final mastered version would be better if, for example I added 6db of overall volume + 3db of limiting, rather than 9db of limiting (just as an example)).
 
@ston: re the quick grouing, thanks for the tip.  That actually would work if I only had soft synth in a piece.   I do mainly, but sometimes there are some audio tracks in there too -- if I understood quick grouping right, it only adjusts faders of same type (meaning pressing ctrl+fader of a soft synth track would move all soft synth tracks simaltaneously, but not any audio tracks).

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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/16 13:01:45 (permalink)
yeah, i found that grouping tracks works well, cuz when you move the fader, they all move together.
Is there a way to do a sub mix, like on Logic Pro X?

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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/16 13:11:43 (permalink)
blu lacez
Is there a way to do a sub mix, like on Logic Pro X?

How does that work?

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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/16 15:05:01 (permalink)
Anonymungus!
Hello - here's a related Question:  Does clip gain add any distortion/modulation to audio, especially if you go up & down a few times?




Up and down a few times doesn't matter...a 64-bit engine has a lot of resolution. 
 
Turning it up won't cause distortion in the track itself, but it could lead to distortion further downstream, or change characteristics of subsequent effects like compression or distortion.

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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/16 15:05:28 (permalink)
blu lacez
yeah, i found that grouping tracks works well, cuz when you move the fader, they all move together.
Is there a way to do a sub mix, like on Logic Pro X?




There are several ways to submix in Sonar. What is it exactly that you want to do?

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robert_e_bone
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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/16 15:51:03 (permalink)
If by sub-mix, you mean using additional buses, that is sort of what the OP was doing, except he kind of took it too far for being practical.
 
A common thing to do is to route common instruments to a single sub-bus for each instrument group, which is then routed to the master, though additional layering is potentially beneficial, depending on the nature of the bus configuration you end up with.
 
This is done for a couple of reasons: 1st, grouping like instruments (like 1st violin, 2nd violin, cello, viola), by routing them to a bus (Strings), allows you the flexibility to control individual instruments as needed while also allowing the whole section to be brought up or down.  2nd, 'like' instruments usually have similar kinds of reverb and such applied to them, so you could share a single instance of whatever reverb you wanted to use for the string section.  (This saves CPU, and makes changing the effect levels and/or other parameters easier, since doing it once benefits the whole bus).
 
Folks often route each drum kit piece to its own audio track, then group those tracks by sending things like all the toms to a Toms bus, and all the cymbals to a 'Cymbals' bus, and these buses are then routed to a main 'Drums' bus, which itself is routed to the Master bus.
 
It's all about grouping 'like' instruments for making it easier to add effects to, to save CPU by reducing the number of effects instances are used, and about controlling volume of grouped tracks with single faders.
 
If you watch the first part of one of the Sonar videos, on Larger Than Life Drums, they explain this and go through the setup - and the 'why'.  Here is a link to that video:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VH9W1MD80kk
 
You can skip ahead to 7:00 into the video, and they will shortly begin adding the extra buses, and explaining how and why they do so.
 
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Wouter Schijns
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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/16 16:06:35 (permalink)
there's 6 db input gain, plus 6 db output volume on your synth bus, for you to set.
also grouping your synths faders and then rightclick fader/group manager/choose 'relative' would be option.
imo better option than using a limiter as that will add latency to your whole project.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/16 16:52:40 (permalink)
Latency isn't really a problem during mixdown, it's only a problem when you want to play a live instrument.
That said, a limiter is indeed not such a good idea because that's exactly the kind of stuff the mastering engineer would want to apply with his expertise.
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Wouter Schijns
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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/16 17:48:41 (permalink)
hi Sander, most VST will add latency on mixdown, it's best to bounce VST tracks before misdown.
when needed you VST latency can be fixed with audiosnap (take pool from original audio then copy to bounced audio incl VST) or just move the clip.
same goes for the quadcurve EQ, you want to bounce before and turn off on mixdown, in my opinion.
 
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/16 18:25:04 (permalink)
We have been down this road before. You're wrong, and I'm not getting into it again, you got lots of explanations last time.
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Karyn
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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/17 06:04:37 (permalink)
Wouter Schijns
hi Sander, most VST will add latency on mixdown, it's best to bounce VST tracks before misdown.
when needed you VST latency can be fixed with audiosnap (take pool from original audio then copy to bounced audio incl VST) or just move the clip.
same goes for the quadcurve EQ, you want to bounce before and turn off on mixdown, in my opinion.
 


This is completely wrong.

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Eric_171615
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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/17 07:53:25 (permalink)
In my opinion, Option 4 is the best.
 
If you need to mix for competitive loudness, remove artifacts and carefully eq your sounds early on, put compressors with very low compression ratios on each track and on sub-busses as required to gently reduce overall dynamic range. The rest can be done in mastering.
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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/18 04:41:51 (permalink)
Anderton
blu lacez
yeah, i found that grouping tracks works well, cuz when you move the fader, they all move together.
Is there a way to do a sub mix, like on Logic Pro X?




There are several ways to submix in Sonar. What is it exactly that you want to do?


Really, kindly share Anderton. Id like to group several mix tracks-chorus, response and adlibs..etc.  it is hard to explain here, but if you can school on the various ways, I will see which one, i can work with.

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#20
ston
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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/18 05:44:55 (permalink)
ULTRABRA
@ston: re the quick grouing, thanks for the tip.  That actually would work if I only had soft synth in a piece.   I do mainly, but sometimes there are some audio tracks in there too -- if I understood quick grouping right, it only adjusts faders of same type (meaning pressing ctrl+fader of a soft synth track would move all soft synth tracks simaltaneously, but not any audio tracks).



I *think* you can quick-group any set of faders you like, but I'd need to double check as I've been out of the DAW loop for some time now (about 7 1/2 months!)
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Sub-mix levels question: which option is best? 2014/09/18 07:22:20 (permalink)
AFAIK "simple" soft synth tracks are counted as audio tracks. The distinction is mainly between midi and audio tracks. I've always been able to adjust things this way anyway, and I use softsynths and audio together all the time.
If you have a lot of automation it can get tricky though as you would basically have to move all the automation lanes and all tracks without automation. This is something that always gets a little messy for me too but that I've kinda taken as "the way it is" in DAWs. I suppose you could use offset mode too, in your situation. Hit "o", quick group all tracks and increase the faders (maxed at +6dB I think, but for every track so that should add up nicely).
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