mickeymonster
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Surround Sound please!
Hi everyone. I am on a quest to make surround mixes for my own songs. I'm not sure where to start because I've made it 3 songs into an album with nothing but a tiny behringer uca 222 and a Samson g track usb mic on a HP i3 notebook with a stock soundcard. Latency is terrible, but I'm an ace at nudging clips. Ideally I want to be among the first to mix in 10.2 with Bluedio Victory 12 driver headphones via spidf optical and a focusrite scarlet 12 output interface, but I'd be happy to start with 5.1. and a 200 dollar Logitech Walmart system, IF I can get it from PLATINUM to a playable commercial format. It just seems like there's no point in investing in anything that caters to Sonar if we cant separate multiple outputs in the box and export them to a format that can be played on a home theatre system. I really don't know what path to take, but I already know how to use the surround panners and surround bus, set up outputs in preferences, all that even though I can't hear what it's doing. I just need guidance on how to get it into those 12 driver headphones with true separation (not a bunch of stereo clones or BS "virtual" surround), then export my mix down the road and play it on the widest possible selection of consumer home entertainment systems. I refuse to believe we are too far ahead of our time, too small a niche... that there are too few of us to justify Cakewalk making surround development a priority again like in the Roland sonar 8 through X2 days that I totally missed out on. I invite every Sonar owner to join my mission to strive for surround production development. I don't want to have to abandon Cakewalk after 10 years, buy a MacBook pro, Protools 12, Waves and Dolby Atmos plugins, ILOK, oh God the list goes on and on. That will take me another whole year or more to save up for, buy and learn. Half the reason I bought a subscription to Platinum this time around is because I had x3, pro audio 9 and music creator, so its familiar, easy to use and I'm a die hard loyal Sonar fan... but the other main reason I bought it is because it PROMISED SURROUND and I leapt before I looked. The more I research, the more confused and cheated I feel. What's up Cakewalk? Sonar owners unite! We want surround! How can I get this on a budget? Again, 12 driver bluedio victory headphones show a picture on their website where they're plugged into a focusrite scarlet optical out. If that implies true surround, I WANT THAT. No third party unsupported proprietary cobbled together garbage. Sonar platinum >>> 12 driver Bluetooth headphones >>> playable 5.1/7.1 CD / DVD. I welcome any advice. Thanks.
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gustabo
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Re: Surround Sound please!
2017/09/27 19:47:00
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kauaicaregivers
Hi everyone. I am on a quest to make surround mixes for my own songs. I'm not sure where to start because I've made it 3 songs into an album with nothing but a tiny behringer uca 222 and a Samson g track usb mic on a HP i3 notebook with a stock soundcard. Latency is terrible, but I'm an ace at nudging clips. Ideally I want to be among the first to mix in 10.2 with Bluedio Victory 12 driver headphones via spidf optical and a focusrite scarlet 12 output interface, but I'd be happy to start with 5.1. and a 200 dollar Logitech Walmart system, IF I can get it from PLATINUM to a playable commercial format. It just seems like there's no point in investing in anything that caters to Sonar if we cant separate multiple outputs in the box and export them to a format that can be played on a home theatre system. I really don't know what path to take, but I already know how to use the surround panners and surround bus, set up outputs in preferences, all that even though I can't hear what it's doing. I just need guidance on how to get it into those 12 driver headphones with true separation (not a bunch of stereo clones or BS "virtual" surround), then export my mix down the road and play it on the widest possible selection of consumer home entertainment systems. I refuse to believe we are too far ahead of our time, too small a niche... that there are too few of us to justify Cakewalk making surround development a priority again like in the Roland sonar 8 through X2 days that I totally missed out on. I invite every Sonar owner to join my mission to strive for surround production development. I don't want to have to abandon Cakewalk after 10 years, buy a MacBook pro, Protools 12, Waves and Dolby Atmos plugins, ILOK, oh God the list goes on and on. That will take me another whole year or more to save up for, buy and learn. Half the reason I bought a subscription to Platinum this time around is because I had x3, pro audio 9 and music creator, so its familiar, easy to use and I'm a die hard loyal Sonar fan... but the other main reason I bought it is because it PROMISED SURROUND and I leapt before I looked. The more I research, the more confused and cheated I feel. What's up Cakewalk? Sonar owners unite! We want surround! How can I get this on a budget? Again, 12 driver bluedio victory headphones show a picture on their website where they're plugged into a focusrite scarlet optical out. If that implies true surround, I WANT THAT. No third party unsupported proprietary cobbled together garbage. Sonar platinum >>> 12 driver Bluetooth headphones >>> playable 5.1/7.1 CD / DVD. I welcome any advice. Thanks.
Thank you, that was a funny post! Budget? Have you ever priced the AC3 encoder?
Cakewalk by Bandlab - Win10 Pro x64 - StudioCat Platinum Studio DAW - 32 GB Ram - MOTU UltraLite-mk3
M-Audio Keystation 88ES - Akai MPD26 (hot-rodded) - Alesis DM10 - a few guitars, a few amps
Novation Launch Control - Korg nanoKONTROL2 - PreSonus FaderPort - DAW Remote HD on iPad
Adam A7X - Behritone C50A
PreSonus Monitor Station v2 (controlling the mons)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/sonarusergroup/
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mickeymonster
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Re: Surround Sound please!
2017/09/27 19:54:59
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No. How ridicoulously expensive is it?
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mickeymonster
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Re: Surround Sound please!
2017/09/27 19:56:07
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mickeymonster
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Re: Surround Sound please!
2017/09/27 19:58:12
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What are you using to monitor your 5.1 mix with? Adam AX7 stereo monitors?
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gustabo
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Re: Surround Sound please!
2017/09/27 20:51:36
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kauaicaregivers
What are you using to monitor your 5.1 mix with? Adam AX7 stereo monitors?
I don't
Cakewalk by Bandlab - Win10 Pro x64 - StudioCat Platinum Studio DAW - 32 GB Ram - MOTU UltraLite-mk3
M-Audio Keystation 88ES - Akai MPD26 (hot-rodded) - Alesis DM10 - a few guitars, a few amps
Novation Launch Control - Korg nanoKONTROL2 - PreSonus FaderPort - DAW Remote HD on iPad
Adam A7X - Behritone C50A
PreSonus Monitor Station v2 (controlling the mons)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/sonarusergroup/
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BenMMusTech
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Re: Surround Sound please!
2017/09/27 21:13:57
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For music, the surround sound format has been an unmitigated failure. I remember when it first came out, every classic rock band worth their salt mixed their classic albums for the surround format...to no avail, because people couldn't be bothered or afford the specialised equipment to decode and play the new format. Even today, a lot of people prefer a sound bar and fake surround for home cinemas.
I've been experimenting with 'fake' surround sound for headphones as the OP put it, and IMO this is the way forward for the music surround format. You have to know where to put things in regards to music and the placement of sounds in the 360 degree field otherwise it sounds like a gimmick. There's no point in having drums panning around the 360 degree sound field. What I've done is use 'fake' surround sound plugs on sfx busses, time effect busses, and on individual sounds that need a spot somewhere other than the front of the mix. I also use a spatial panner to also give the front instruments depth, width and height...which creates very effective 'fake' 3d mixes for headphones. Which again IMO is a superior way to introduce surround sound to music...because we listen to music mostly on headphones these days. The other great thing about this technique is it requires no special decoders either, and if you sit in the sweet spot between a set of real world speakers you will hear the surround effect too...neat!
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Anderton
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Re: Surround Sound please!
2017/09/27 22:33:57
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BenMMusTech
I've been experimenting with 'fake' surround sound for headphones as the OP put it, and IMO this is the way forward for the music surround format [snip]...because we listen to music mostly on headphones these days.
...and you don't have to figure out where to put five speakers in your living room 
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Cactus Music
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Re: Surround Sound please!
2017/09/27 22:48:26
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Didn't Walt Disney use 24 track tapes each with it's own output and speaker for the Pirates of the Caribbean? Anyhow if your audio interface ( the one you don't seem to own) has say 8 outputs, you simply send 4 stereo busses to those and then you muck about assigning various tracks. The 8 outputs would drive 8 powered speakers of various function, like 1 as a sub and 2 a full range. The possibilities are endless. Sonar can output as many channels as your interface supports. All DAWs can.
post edited by Cactus Music - 2017/09/28 15:59:17
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bitflipper
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Re: Surround Sound please!
2017/09/28 01:02:27
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The original post seems to suggest that SONAR can't do surround, which would be untrue. Surround support has been included since SONAR 4.
Nobody here does it, but it's not because we're SONAR users. It's because proper monitoring is expensive, and nobody's ever going to actually hear your multi-channel masterpiece unless you invite them over to your studio.
But maybe you know some audiophiles who have the necessary playback gear, have been contracted to do an IMAX movie soundtrack, or just like a challenge. If that's the case, go for it - it won't be SONAR that's holding you back.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Base 57
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Re: Surround Sound please!
2017/09/28 03:41:41
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☄ Helpfulby seriousfun 2017/09/30 06:09:57
As Bitflipper just said, surround has been possible in SONAR for years. So assuming the OP is not aware of the feature (more on this in a moment), here is how you do it.
First assign surround outputs from your interface in Preferences. Then insert a surround bus. After that any audio track can be assigned to the surround bus and instead of a pan control you get a cool little knob that can be controlled with a joystick. Lots of fun if you have a surround monitor system. But exporting to a commercial surround format requires acquiring a license AFAIK.
Unless you are scoring for film there just is no demand for surround formatted music. However if you just want to cover the live version of "Run Like Hell" in the comfort of your home studio, I can say from experience it is worth the effort.
One other thing for the OP,
Please, learn to use paragraphs.
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LabDog
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Re: Surround Sound please!
2017/09/28 10:27:31
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Sonar has had Surround capability for sometime now, but I would like to see it advanced... This is what I'm looking for it to support the psychoacoustic surround tech seen below! I want to mix in object based surround on any good stereo studio headset!
I am creativity's Master, I'll Be In the Lab, creating, If You Need Me
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bitflipper
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Re: Surround Sound please!
2017/09/28 13:27:39
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That would be pretty cool, but have you looked into what it costs to license the Atmos encoder? I don't know, either, but I'm guessing it's VERY expensive. It also requires special equipment for playback, including a hardware decoder or software equivalent, plus, ideally, additional speakers. And it's just one of several competing technologies, so it could easily become a historical footnote along with quadraphonic headphones.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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burkek
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Re: Surround Sound please!
2017/09/28 13:47:08
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bitflipper
Nobody here does it, ...
Actually, some do. I've done a number of mixes in surround in Sonar. I have a surround setup in my studio and 5 speakers + sub in my living room. It's the only way to get full enjoyment out of movies - and additional enjoyment out of 5.1 mixes (like Aero by Jean Michelle Jarre). KEv
www.kevinburke.ca Macbook Pro 2017 | 4K monitor
AKAI S5000 x 3 | Korg Prophecy/Poly-61M | Alesis S4+/DM5 | Ensoniq Mirage x 2, ASR-10 | EMU e6400 | Roland S750 | Kawai K4r/XD-5/K3m | EMU Proformance/1+ | Waldorf uQ
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LabDog
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Re: Surround Sound please!
2017/09/29 10:55:47
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bitflipper
That would be pretty cool, but have you looked into what it costs to license the Atmos encoder? I don't know, either, but I'm guessing it's VERY expensive. It also requires special equipment for playback, including a hardware decoder or software equivalent, plus, ideally, additional speakers. And it's just one of several competing technologies, so it could easily become a historical footnote along with quadraphonic headphones.
I have checked into it, but really there's seemingly only one way to create Atmos audio right now, The Dolby Atmos Renderer which, according to Dolby, 'receives audio and metadata from Pro Tools and creates multichannel speaker outputs, binaural headphone outputs, and channel-based deliverables.' The same seems true of DTS:X DTS:X® Creator Suite also designed to work with Pro Tools AAX only. Both quite expensive! Yet they're both not quite what I'm asking for... I'd like to create for DTS Headphone X and Atmos for Headphones. Maybe I still need a better understanding of it, but it seems there should be a way to create DTS Headphone X and Atmos for Headphones without the need of special surround hardware as each of these are not quite the same thing as DTS:X or Dolby Atmos... and can both be experienced from any pair of stereo headsets or even stereo earbuds! I've heard both and both are pretty amazing! With that thought in mind, it'd be nice to see some sort of deal made where we could get versions of these tools which focus on DTS Headphone X and Atmos for Headphones. As I understand it thus far, the audio for both still needs to be encoded accordingly but does not need to be directed to discrete hardware output channels as their counterparts DTS:X or Dolby Atmos do. This is because their effect is, as I mentioned before, psychoacoustic.
I am creativity's Master, I'll Be In the Lab, creating, If You Need Me
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mickeymonster
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Re: Surround Sound please!
2017/11/06 23:17:44
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Thanks everybody... I now know how to set up a surround bus, mix and assign a device... I just want a minimalist monitoring system that isn't "fake" What about a focusrite scarlet 18i6 or 18i8 and a pair of bluedio victory 12 driver headphones using optical I/o from phones into the scarlet interface?
Feedback anyone?
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stxx
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Re: Surround Sound please!
2017/11/07 01:03:55
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Only thing that should come out the rear speakers is the sound of the front speakers bouncing off the rear wall... you may not even need speakers for that
Sonar Platinum, RME UFX, UAD 2, Waves, Soundtoys, Fronteir Alphatrack, X-Touch as Contl Srfc, , Console 1, Sweetwater Creation Station Quad Core Win 8.1, Mackie 824, KRK RP5, AKG 240 MKII, Samson C-Control, Sennheiser, Blue, AKG, RODE, UA, Grace, Focusrite, Audient, Midas, ART Song Portfolio: https://soundcloud.com/allen-lind/sets/oth-short
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