mbouteneff
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Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
I have two tracks of separately recorded guitars. They're fairly tight, but there are a few points where the strumming is not perfectly in sync. I'd love to sync up the 2nd track with the "primary" track at those points. One way to do it is to use V-Vocal to manually move each individual "unsynced strum" until it's sync-ed up to the strums of the primary track. While that can be done by listening to the tracks over and over, is there any way to overlay the two tracks visually, so it's easier to actually see which waveforms are ahead/behind the other?
Thanks!
-M
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altima_boy_2001
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/01/29 02:27:12
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If you have Sonar 6 or newer I'd use AudioSnap. Adjust the view so both tracks are next to each other, nudge the tracks until most everything lines up, and then all you do is drag some transient markers as needed. Very simple and almost everything is done visually. All you do then is verify everything is correct by listening.
You can use me as your eSoundz referral (altima_boy_2001).
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Marah Mag
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/01/29 04:26:26
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What Lucas (altima boy) said. I would also suggest splitting the bad strums, or the beats immediately before and after the baddies, into separate clips, and do Audio Snap only on the clips/segments that really need it. It will be a more straighforward process that way. As you get each clip aligned, do a self-bounce to clip... it's best not to let too many Audio Snapped clips accumulate in a project. And please save often! 
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mbouteneff
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/01/29 12:04:47
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altima boy & Marah mag: Thanks for tips! I have S7, and I've never actually used Audio Snap...that's going to change today, finally. I had no idea it could do that. (Oops.) Thanks!!
-Mike
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esmail1
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/01/30 02:31:00
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Personally I would record about 10 takes of the same part... using the track layering function and then go through the tracks to find the best parts of each one, editing it down to a stereo pair that is totally tight using short crossfades to avoid any editing pops. Not a fan of audio snap as it never quite works just right and affects the audio quality, IMO. PS: If you use the track layering function...you can lay your tracks side by side and zoom in to see how the wave forms line up. I do this all the time and in doing so can easily see when things are 'rushed' just by how they line up on the measure/bar grid. Of course I can hear this too, but dont even really need to bother if it visually is not tite. you can easily adjust your edit points manually by using this too and the track layer function to line up mulitple takes side by side and editing the best ones together, nudging those that need to be nudged either way. It takes some time, but the results will be worth it and you dont stretch your audio with audio snap.
post edited by esmail1 - 2009/01/30 06:19:17
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Guitarhacker
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/01/30 08:24:47
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I would opt for what esmail1 said.... or use the auto punch feature and simply record the out of sync part again and keep recording it until you get it in sync.....after all..... how hard can it be to record "strumming" in sync?
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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mbouteneff
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/01/30 08:47:19
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esmail1: I have to agree, and in fact, I'm doing just that. I tried AudioSnap yesterday, but the strum pattern is too complex and continuous for AS to hanndle well. I've been picking and choosing measures taken that sync well...and that seems to be working ok. Where it doesn't, I should be able to work with smaller chunks of audio with AudioSnap.
Guitarhacker: It's not quite as basic as straight strumming...but still, you're right. Fortunately, I did take a bunch of takes, and am working with those now.
Thanks, guys 'n' gals!
-Mike
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Ron Vogel
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/01/30 11:19:32
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You can tighten things up using automated faders too. I use the technique a lot for vocal harmonies. If you hear the track only that I fade in and out it sounds unlistenable because the fader is going crazy up and down...but blended with other tracks you can't even tell it's going on. For instance I had a track that the first lyric was "Today", the T was out of time, so I only used the T from 1 track, but you can't tell as the other lyrics come in. Look at my soundclick link, and play the song "Today" the first verse is actually 4 separate vocal tracks that I trimmed and blended to sound like 2 singers...all done by lots of fader control.
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krizrox
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/01/30 12:46:10
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I'll tell you a little secret that works great - during the tracking phase - I run the guitar into a Radial splitter and send a clean signal straight to the DAW along with a send to the amp. That track is used for nothing more than a visual reference where the actual pick strokes are. Great for cleaning up multi-layered guitar parts. PS - also good for reamping with an amp sim.
post edited by krizrox - 2009/01/30 17:24:54
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JayJayVee
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/01/30 12:59:09
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I'll tell you a little secret that works great - during the tracking phase - I run the guitar into a Radial splitter and send a clean signal straight to the DAW along with a send to the amp. That track is used for nothing more than a visual reference where the actual pick strokes are. Great for cleaning up multi-layered guitar parts. That's a pretty good idea, Larry! JV
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mcourter
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/01/30 13:34:51
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that, from Sonar 6 on, you can Quantize audio clips as well as MIDI. I actually have tried it exactly once, but frankly could not tell that it made any difference.
A few guitars, a couple of basses, a MIDI controller, a mandolin, a banjo, a mic, PodFarm2 Unbridled Enthusiasm My music: www.Soundclick.com/markcourter
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tcaylor
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/01/31 16:31:27
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Every time I use audio snap on a guitar part, I end up with warbling, for lack of a better term. It fixes the timing but leaves me with something I can't use, even if it is just a small section. My approach is the same as esmail1's by recording multiple takes.
post edited by tcaylor - 2009/01/31 16:36:34
Tom My Soundclick Page Sonar Platinum, AMD FX-4100 Quad Core, 8GB RAM, Win 7, RME Fireface USB, UA LA-610, Dynaudio BM 5A monitors, G&L Asat Classic, Peavy Wolfgang, 1990 Strat Ultra, Alvarez PD-80SC Acoustic
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esmail1
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/02/01 16:19:31
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ORIGINAL: tcaylor
Every time I use audio snap on a guitar part, I end up with warbling, for lack of a better term. It fixes the timing but leaves me with something I can't use, even if it is just a small section. My approach is the same as esmail1's by recording multiple takes.
Yup.... it is old school to do it that way but it works.....(they used to use a razor blade but at least we get digital and crossfades to do it with :)
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MelodicJimmy
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/02/01 19:52:47
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ORIGINAL: mcourter
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that, from Sonar 6 on, you can Quantize audio clips as well as MIDI. I actually have tried it exactly once, but frankly could not tell that it made any difference.
I have 6XL and I'm nearly positive that there's no audio quantizing.
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/02/01 21:10:26
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if i'm lazy i grab a clip from another part of the track that's playing the same thing and put that in, using crossfades (i find linear/logarithmic provides the most even volume) as esmail1 said. otherwise i retrack the whole thing. i'm getting better at recording guitar (something about pressing 'r' that sucks out the talent) but in the old days i would record a two or four measure clip at a time and finger the next chord (first in the progression) but not strum it. you get the sustain that hides the break without crossfading, but your first clip doesn't have it so you can use it as your intro. then you just copy the clip as many times as necessary. if you play it consistently and don't screw it up then no one will notice it was looped. the same flub every four measures will give it away though.  works for electrics and acoustics both.
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lackluster strumming
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/02/02 00:37:10
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Here is some stuff that will help you out. I've been working a lot on this stuff this week. It seems like a lot at first. watch the 11 min one on drum tightening... all of them for that matter. they are blurry but helpful. I'm trying to say i hope these audio snap videos help you out. quentin
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lackluster strumming
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/02/02 00:42:20
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oh and if you are having trouble with anything in life, check and see if there is a video online. somebody will likely have a video, teaching you how to do the very thing you are having trouble with. very useful. you want to learn how play an eddy van halen song and there's a 9 yr old kid on you tube teaching you how to play it.
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wilson_inc
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/02/06 21:15:41
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playing some extras takes til you got your part right or usable is the way to go
to me playing it right or punching in til you got a good take
is easier to play it right or til you get it right
than trying to Edit in a bad take that's likely not to sound good in the end
and save's time editing because now you have quality takes to work with
instead of mediorce ones you may being try to get to sound good/and don't
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Marah
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/02/06 21:42:51
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ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
i'm getting better at recording guitar (something about pressing 'r' that sucks out the talent) but in the old days i would record a two or four measure clip at a time and finger the next chord (first in the progression) but not strum it. you get the sustain that hides the break without crossfading, but your first clip doesn't have it so you can use it as your intro. then you just copy the clip as many times as necessary.
I often do something similar. For rhythm guitars, I'll record each chord change as a separate take on a separate clip, holding each chord for its full/maximum value, and then quickly and silently dampening it right at the change, instead of actually changing to and strumming the next chord. Then I roll back a bit, press record, and play the next chord. I like the wall-to-wall articulations and energy that I get from that. But I don't just reuse, say, the same C#m clip every time it occurs, but instead perform it again each time for the variations in each of them, and because an onset (or inversion) that works in one spot might not work in another. That said, I'll sometimes used isolated chords as clip-samples in other parts of the song, sometimes as doubles, or in other songs altogether.
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/02/06 23:48:26
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ORIGINAL: Marah
ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
i'm getting better at recording guitar (something about pressing 'r' that sucks out the talent) but in the old days i would record a two or four measure clip at a time and finger the next chord (first in the progression) but not strum it. you get the sustain that hides the break without crossfading, but your first clip doesn't have it so you can use it as your intro. then you just copy the clip as many times as necessary.
I often do something similar. For rhythm guitars, I'll record each chord change as a separate take on a separate clip, holding each chord for its full/maximum value, and then quickly and silently dampening it right at the change, instead of actually changing to and strumming the next chord. Then I roll back a bit, press record, and play the next chord. I like the wall-to-wall articulations and energy that I get from that. But I don't just reuse, say, the same C#m clip every time it occurs, but instead perform it again each time for the variations in each of them, and because an onset (or inversion) that works in one spot might not work in another. That said, I'll sometimes used isolated chords as clip-samples in other parts of the song, sometimes as doubles, or in other songs altogether. so you are basically sampling yourself =) pretty interesting approach. i've done that with electrics when i'm in a hurry and i really want to keep that constant energy from the guitar going. usually when i'm doing a huge power chord slide. although i've never taken those clips from one song to another as i usually don't have them short enough to be samples. you know, in order to avoid complete heresy
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esmail1
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/02/07 00:29:52
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ORIGINAL: Marah
ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
i'm getting better at recording guitar (something about pressing 'r' that sucks out the talent) but in the old days i would record a two or four measure clip at a time and finger the next chord (first in the progression) but not strum it. you get the sustain that hides the break without crossfading, but your first clip doesn't have it so you can use it as your intro. then you just copy the clip as many times as necessary.
I often do something similar. For rhythm guitars, I'll record each chord change as a separate take on a separate clip, holding each chord for its full/maximum value, and then quickly and silently dampening it right at the change, instead of actually changing to and strumming the next chord. Then I roll back a bit, press record, and play the next chord. I like the wall-to-wall articulations and energy that I get from that. But I don't just reuse, say, the same C#m clip every time it occurs, but instead perform it again each time for the variations in each of them, and because an onset (or inversion) that works in one spot might not work in another. That said, I'll sometimes used isolated chords as clip-samples in other parts of the song, sometimes as doubles, or in other songs altogether.
Those are good techniques...particularly for acoustic guitar, where sometimes you just cant help but be 'obvious' when changing from one chord to another, and you want to eliminate the 'obvious' part for a smooth strum. For example, playing Emajor chord in the standard open position and then have to switch to Bm or C# minor really fast in a fast acoustic driven song, sometimes you can miss a strum or articulation and flub it...so doing it in multiple takes can make the transistion much smoother. other times, you want that acousitic-articulation particularly if it is that kind of song with a rustic sort of feel and sound...so you keep it in and play it all live.
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mbouteneff
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/04/04 02:19:36
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Hi Everyone, First, thanks so much for all the answers above, they were a HUGE help. Second, I finally finished a draft of the song I actually asked the original at the top of this string about. :) It's called "20/20 Foresight". In case you'd like to hear it, you can check it out here: http://www.reverbnation.com/garagespin I also posted about it in the MP3 Clinic in the forums here: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1680647&mpage=1&key=� Regarding the "syncing" issue I had, I ended up using AudioSnap after all. Although I was causing a lot of problems initially, I found that if I removed 70% of the "points" that were automatically added before entering them in the pool (and only kept the ones residing on major incidentals), almost all of the audio glitches and clips disappeared. The remaining glitches disappeared when I mixed down to an audio file. I'd love to hear what you think of the resulting double-tracked acoustic guitar sound..! (If you do leave feedback, please do it in the Mp3 Clinic, to avoid annoying people who only want to read about "Techniques" in the "Techniques" section. :) ) Thanks again! Mike
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tcolton5
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/04/06 17:29:16
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I find that a little imperfection is OK... I think it's very natual. If the track is really off then re-record it.
Tom.
TomC Lenovo T530 (Laptop) Windows 8 (64 bit) Intel(R) Core (TM) I7-3430(M) 2.90 GHz Sonar Platinum Presonus Firestudio, Faderport Universal Solo/610 Audio Pre-amp Nektar Impact LX 40 http://www.tomcoltonmusic.com
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VigilantSound
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/04/07 15:39:19
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Waves Double is awesome for double tracking!
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AJ_0000
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RE: Syncing up Double Tracked Guitars
2009/04/07 18:40:44
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ORIGINAL: tcolton5
I find that a little imperfection is OK... I think it's very natual. If the track is really off then re-record it.
Tom.
I agree. I'm reading this thread thinking, "why go to all the trouble?". The only scenario I can see where you'd want to take these measures is if you're mixing something that was recorded elsewhere and have to patch it up without re-recording parts. Part of the purpose of double tracking guitars is to thicken up the sound, and part of what does that is the subtle differences between the two performances. If it's way off, just do it again. It will take a lot less time than trying to micro-edit it.
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