Helpful ReplyT racks mastering suite has "compare" feature... great!! I can't hear much difference?

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ChuckC
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2011/10/04 17:31:28 (permalink)

T racks mastering suite has "compare" feature... great!! I can't hear much difference?

 Lets me start by saying I don't believe I am a morron and I must have a pretty decent ear as I have gotten many compliments on my recordings, mixes, and masterin I have done within sonar (both on this forum and otherwise).... 
    With that said, I was playing around with t-racks for the 1st time the other day, adding modules, playing with compressors and just kinda getting a feel for it.   Well, it has a compare feature to toogle bettween the original wave file and the file processed with t-racks and a volume knob so you can bring up the volume of the raw track and not be fooled by the difference of the two.  I thought "hey that's awesome!!  what a cool tool to really learn what it's doing to the sound on an even playing field!!"    But with exception of eq changes (if you alter the eq in one of the modules)  I can't hear much, if any change by any of the compressors, limiters, etc...?   I mean on individual tracks I can hear a comp tighten up a bassline or add prescence to a vocal track but when I used them in this program on an entire mix (that I am very familiar with) and toggled back and forth I am getting nothing?  I listened through two different sets of monitors....  and nada, If I bring up the raw tracks volume to comparable levels they seem nearly identical processed or not....   Am I not pushing the compressors enough?    I would think even at their default settings I would hear some change ???  Any help, advice, etc. is appreciated.  Thank in advance folks!

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jamesyoyo
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Re:T racks mastering suite has "compare" feature... great!! I can't hear much difference? 2011/10/04 19:44:15 (permalink)
I always thought the compare button was to compare your tweak versus the original preset?
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ChuckC
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Re:T racks mastering suite has "compare" feature... great!! I can't hear much difference? 2011/10/04 20:57:46 (permalink)
Here the tutorial on you tube....  it explains that it is comparing the processed vs. unprocessed sound

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMHK0VXCWe0&feature=related

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:T racks mastering suite has "compare" feature... great!! I can't hear much difference? 2011/10/05 06:08:35 (permalink)
The problem with using any sort of compressor in default mode is that the preset has absolutely no idea what level is being fed into it, so at the very least, you must adjust the threshold/input drive so that it actually starts compressing!

Have you taken this into account?

Have you inserted a decent metering plug to compare your mix with/without the comp in? You should, if the settings on the comp are adjusted properly, see an increase in RMS values

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ChuckC
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Re:T racks mastering suite has "compare" feature... great!! I can't hear much difference? 2011/10/05 15:42:16 (permalink)
Bristol,

  I have taken that into account, & I have adjusted the threshold values, it does get louder but that's it.  but that's my point....  If I adjust the unprocessed music's volume to comparable levels
(using the compare button and volume knob) I hear no difference between the one that's unprocessed and just turned up, and the other that has say 2 compressors and a limiter running on it.  If this is the case well then I guess I can just get the mix right & put a brickwall limiter on the master & crank it up to get that (commercial radio rock) sound we are all used to hearing for rock and hard rock...     I am little turned off and disappointed by the fact that the volume seems to be the only audible difference compressors make, nothing seems to "gel" or become more cohesive.  Maybe I am doing something terribly wrong, or maybe the mix is just right and the comps I had running on the individual tracks have already done the job... 
I don't know? that's why I am asking for help!?

ADK Built DAW, W7, Sonar Platinum, Studio One Pro,Yamaha HS8's & HS8S  Presonus Studio/Live 24.4.2, A few decent mic pre's,  lots of mics, 57's,58 betas, Sm7b, LD Condensors, Small condensors, Senn 421's,  DI's,  Sans Amp, A few guitar amps etc. Guitars : Gib. LP, Epi. Lp, Dillion Tele, Ibanez beater, Ibanez Ergodyne 4 String bass, Mapex Mars series 6 pc. studio kit, cymbals and other sh*t.
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:T racks mastering suite has "compare" feature... great!! I can't hear much difference? 2011/10/06 06:21:21 (permalink)
If you can hear the effect of a compressor working on individual tracks then you've proved there's nothing wrong with the compressor itself.

Which of the T-Racks offerings are you using on your master bus?

They are all different and have to be set up in completely different ways.

Some compressors deliberately colour the sound. Others are designed to act as transparently as possible.



Try this:

Set up another "Pre-master" bus. Route all your existing tracks/busses to this new one and route the Pre-master to the master. **

Insert a good metering plug on the Pre-master AND master busses.

Adjust the compressor so that there's no discernable increase in volume when switching between the 2 busses.
Now take a look at your meters - what RMS figure is being displayed? If the compressor is indeed compressing, the one on the master bus should be displaying a higher RMS than the pre-master bus.


** a quicker way is to create a new bus - call THIS one the Master and route it to your Main Outs. Re-name the old Master one Pre-Master and re-route this one to the new Master.
post edited by Bristol_Jonesey - 2011/10/06 06:29:35

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#6
Jeff Evans
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Re:T racks mastering suite has "compare" feature... great!! I can't hear much difference? 2011/10/06 19:26:39 (permalink) ☄ Helpful
Hi there ChuckC This could be one of those situations where the compressor is working and doing good but it is just not that obvious at first. In fact it could be said that when a compressor (over a mix that is) is doing well it should not be that obvious to the ears. But what does it do instead you may ask.

Well it glues things together, reigns things in that might be otherwise leaping out at odd times and just giving the track a little more attitude and feel. And keeping the overall level of the track a little more even and constant. And also as Bristol has pointed out the average rms value of the signal is going to get a little higher too. This is not easy to see with normal Sonar meters for example as the rms values are displayed a long way down. You really need a proper plugin to see rms values much more easily and accurately eg BlueCat meter for example.

It is important to always switch back to raw trcaks and hear them at the same volume as mastered volume. That way you can hear if you are doing good rather than bad. Limiting should be a different story though. A heavily limted track should be 7 or 8 or more (10!)  db higher in rms value than the raw track. But if you are hearing the raw track at the same volume then the limited version is not going to be much different but in real life it will be way louder.

After a while even subtle compression makes a track sound completely different to the raw tracks. Raw tracks to me sound a little out of control and ordinary compared to beautifully compressed tracks instead. But the compressor also has something to do with it too. I have just finished mastering an album using a hardware Smart C2 compressor and this is quite expensive. I bet that it is in a totally another class to the T Racks stuff, maybe not but one thing I know is that you have to spend a lot of money on a compressor plugin to get anywhere near it in sound and what it does.

Here are some settings to try on a total mix. Attack to about maybe 15 ms or so. Release start with say 150 ms or 300 ms. Ratio 1.5 or 2:1 and set the threshold for about - 3db of gain reduction. Makeup gain to suit eg 3 db is a good start. Try this and switch back and forth to the raw tracks and listen out for the total overall sound you are hearing. I bet after a while you will start to really hear what it is doing. The raw tracks will after a while start to sound unpolished compared to the compressed track.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2011/10/06 19:36:39

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#7
ChuckC
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Re:T racks mastering suite has "compare" feature... great!! I can't hear much difference? 2011/10/07 07:28:20 (permalink)
I thank you both for your advise here.  I will give these a shot tonight.

ADK Built DAW, W7, Sonar Platinum, Studio One Pro,Yamaha HS8's & HS8S  Presonus Studio/Live 24.4.2, A few decent mic pre's,  lots of mics, 57's,58 betas, Sm7b, LD Condensors, Small condensors, Senn 421's,  DI's,  Sans Amp, A few guitar amps etc. Guitars : Gib. LP, Epi. Lp, Dillion Tele, Ibanez beater, Ibanez Ergodyne 4 String bass, Mapex Mars series 6 pc. studio kit, cymbals and other sh*t.
http://www.everythingiam.net/
http://www.stormroomstudios.com
Some of my productions: http://soundcloud.com/stormroomstudios
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