TO AUTOMATE OR ENVELOPE ?

How about automating your envelopes? That's what I do.

I vote method 2 as well...

ORIGINAL: petep

I'm a longtime Samplitude user getting in to Sonar 5 Producer for some stuff.
Samp. is object-based so its easy to adjust clip (object) levels as you go along using handles.
New to Sonar and interested in mixing philosophies.
Anybody have reasons to use automation over track envelopes? Vise versa?
Just trying to get a good worklfow going.

Thanks for any thoughts.

I think it's the same thing, however, if you make all the nodes while looking at the waveform in track view you can be a lot more accurate and only have to do stuff once and not make a mess with a bunch of nodes. If you use a control surface or fader you are flying blind and will end up with tons of nodes that are impossible to thin out to make adjustments. Working directly on the envolope and making your own nodes (only as many as needed) is the easy and most accurate way to do things.

Keep in mind you want to use the clip gain envelope to do all your dynamics adjustments and mutes because it's pre effects bin. Then use the Track Volume envelope to set the overall level and do fade in and fade out of each track. So on most tracks you will end up with a fairy busy clip gain envelope and a track volume envelope with only two nodes at each end. The clip gain envelope is the key to a perfect mix and unlike plugins like limiters, compressors, de-essers, etc, they take almost no CPU power and you can adjust each note or part of a note exactly as it should be. A dynamics plugin can only use one rule for the entire track. It's more work then poping a plugin into the effects bin but it's worth it in the long run if you want a perfect sounding track that fits in the mix.

ORIGINAL: glazfolk

If you use a control surface or fader you are flying blind and will end up with tons of nodes that are impossible to thin out to make adjustments...

Ah! But the envelope pencil tool is my friend. Well, sometimes it is.

Best,
Geoff

My question is why do it twice (record to get close and edit to fix your mess) when you could get it right once by adding your own nodes and moving the lines in track view ? Seems easier to me. You can use the console view to set a rough mix before you add the track volume envelopes and they will default to the value you have the fader set for. You don't want to use the track volume envelople to do your automation anyway because it's post effects bin so your reverb will dip or mute with your edits. Clip gain is where it's at.

ORIGINAL: kstevege
Interesting. I learned something new tonight. I didn't realize the pre-effects clips versus post effects track stuff. Very deep stuff.

Steve ...

If you've got Sonar 5, take some time to study and take in the flow chart on page 373 of your manual. I'm not saying that it is the mother and father of all good mixing, but it sure is the mixer's indispensable littel helper. It'll also show you, for example, exactly what are the differences between Pre and Post settings for your Bus sends.

Best,
Geoff

PS Frank ... I do agree with you for the most part that envelopes with manual adjustments are the way to go ... I even said so near the top of this page somewhere! It's just that there have been times when I really do find I need to experiment to hear how two or even more parameters on a plug in interact with each other, ie what they do to the overall sound. An example is for instrumenst with which I'm not too familiar, to see how subtle Compressor Threshold and Ratio changes intereact with each other. At times like those, recording automation with the aid of a control surface can be really helpful! When the experiment is over, it's often easiest to just ditch those envelopes and then create new ones manually.

Horses for courses is what we say over here ...

Keep in mind you want to use the clip gain envelope to do all your dynamics adjustments and mutes because it's pre effects bin.

Just to add to that, because I suspect a lot of folks don't realise this, like Frank says, Clip Envelopes come before both the Clip FX Bins and the Track FX Bin, but the Track Volume Trim comes after the Clip FX Bins. When Clip FX bins were introduced, I didn't realise this at first and did some strange things.

This is quite aforum you folks have going here. Thanks for the info.
Is there a keystroke to add a gain envelope to a clip, or are you stuck with the damn pulldown menu. That alone is a dealbreaker for me. I tried finding it in the key bindings...hope I;m missing something.

ORIGINAL: glazfolk

..., but the Track Volume Trim comes after the Clip FX Bins.

So the track volume trim is pre-effects bin?

Yep I see it. Thanks!! Good to know this stuff!

DesertHermit ...

I'm not gonna argue with you over how you prefer to work, it always has to be for each of us whatever works best ... there's no one size fits all in my view. But I just noticed this comment that you made:

All I have to do is adjust the track volume fader once and all my clips are changed at the same percentage. If I'd have done it as a track envelope, I'd have to go in and adjust each node. I learned this lesson the hard way

If you're happy doing it the way you are, fine, but did you know that it's really quite easy to move a whole envelope up or down - not just Volume, any envelope.

1. Make sure that "Select Envelopes with Clips" is ticked (it's the little drop down arrow right next to the Select Tool)
2. Make sure the Select tool is selected
3. Select the Track or Clips

Notice that all Nodes on the envelope that are located on clips or tracks will be selected. You can then move the envelope up and down all together by clicking and holding on any part of the envelope and dragging.

Best,
Geoff

but did you know that it's really quite easy to move a whole envelope up or down

Careful with that! This would be the way to go IF envelopes were implemented well. BUT: moving the whole envelope won't preserve the relative levels. I.e. a difference between nodes of say 3dB will increase when you're moving the envelope down, try it. (Unless it has been fixed in 5.2)

For overall adjustments I recommend using Offset mode instead.

werner

no keystroke for that..yes, some don't get how crucial it is.

BUT SOME DO and request it often - this one is by wicked..good ideas here - http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=702312

BTW - Sonar does get improvements all the time (I know you sometimes just can't wait...)
Cakewalk are listening and monitoring these forums.

we already had some posts here about clip's volumes..sorry for pasting the long quotes..
Scott Lee wrote here 3 months ago:
"Hi all,

I am still a Sonar 4 user currently and have been debating the plunge into S5 (been waiting on completing a few commecial products to be finalized.)

I've noticed some basic functions have changed that I have used over the years like the process audio / +3 db volume -3 db volume keys I use to hotkey. Im always adjusting the volume on audio clips up and down on the fly and that was a great feature, while the new gain setting now requires 2 steps to process audio clip volume (which would make realtime clip audio adjustments more tedious.) Anyone have a solution in Sonar 5 that would bring this function back possibly? (CAL or something I missed while playing with my friends Sonar 5) Would definely make the upgrade more confortable. thanks in advance. "

Ron's answer:

"Process | Audio Gain is a more general purpose version of the old very limited +/- 3dB commands. You can choose any gain stage, left/right mix and/or phase flip. That's for destructive gain adjustments.
You can also create a clip envelope and nondestructively adjust the gain. There is little or no CPU load for doing that"

and of course then came my usual thoughts -

"You are right that it was limiting having the -3/+3dB but this is funny now -
what Scott asks is a keyboard shortcut for doing that (or i'm sure he would be glad to have ANY level setting with a key binding..for a selected clip)

now , it's funny because a few nights ago there was a thread where me and some other users wanted to have the ability to control basic volume changes of clips with something that Sonar doesn't have - either a Volume Line on each clip -like an envelope that is always there..main gain(and a way to use keybindings with it) or even to just being able to bind something close to that..maybe a quick "create CLIP envelope" PLUS two nodes on the edges to just drag the line between them with the mouse.. or have some options with key shortcuts for anything close to that.. like a -/+ dB scaling from the keyboard

It would be sure good to have something like that"


..and of course there was another thread about the missing shortcut to create the nodes at the edges of a selection -

Cakewalk users would benefit from all these ideas at some point... i hope.

ORIGINAL: DesertHermit

The question has been answered very well, but I'd like to comment on the reason I use clip envelopes instead of track automation. Let's say I have a guitar track and it has a few dynamics that need to be tamed or enhanced. First I'll set an overall track volume with the fader, then apply clip envelopes where necessary.

Later on I may decide I want to EQ that guitar a little differently. When I do it changes the overall volume of that track. All I have to do is adjust the track volume fader once and all my clips are changed at the same percentage. If I'd have done it as a track envelope, I'd have to go in and adjust each node. I learned this lesson the hard way

(Yeah, I know ... I could probably set up a routine to increase/decrease all the track nodes at the same percent, but I'm a simple man )

As for assigning a second track envelope in addition to the clip envelopes, I just create one track envelope on the master bus for my fade-in/fade-out and only add at the track level if the master fades don't work together well. That's assuming, of course, that you're routing all your channels to a master ... which is what I do because that's where I insert Ozone for the final gloss.

I hope that helps someone.

Beware that if your using a compressor on the track, and you have your dynamics dialed in like you like it, that using the clip envelope to adjust volume causes more signal into the compressor (or any effect for that matter) and will change how the effect responds to the audio signal.

ORIGINAL: dreamkeeper

but did you know that it's really quite easy to move a whole envelope up or down

Careful with that! This would be the way to go IF envelopes were implemented well. BUT: moving the whole envelope won't preserve the relative levels. I.e. a difference between nodes of say 3dB will increase when you're moving the envelope down, try it. (Unless it has been fixed in 5.2)

For overall adjustments I recommend using Offset mode instead.

werner

werner ...

I take your (very valid) point here, but please understand I was making a statement about envelopes in general, definitely NOT specifically Volume - "not just Volume, any envelope". I got the impression from our friend's post that he was not aware that this was possible.

There are times (eg with Pan envelopes and Bus Send Level envelopes) when it is very useful for me to move the whole envelope up or down somewhat, then maybe use the pencil tool to make little tweaks here and there afterwards if necessary.

Much quicker and more effective than adkusting every node individually!

Best,
Geoff

ORIGINAL: petep

So no keystroke.....you've got to be kidding me. One of the most used features is buried 3 menus deep? You folks actually mix like that? Sorry to be a downer, but that is complete crap.

Wow, I had never thought of a keyboard shortcut for adding clip volume envelopes. Now that I think about it, it could be very useful. (I'm thinking about how useful CTRL-L is for creating loop clips.) I think I'll fill out the feature request form.

But you do realize that not everyone's needs are similar to yours?