TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box?

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57Gregy
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/01 14:58:12 (permalink)
I've heard of Yep's legendary mixing tutorial, but never looked at it. Thanks for including the link.
Check out a member here, Gamblerschoice. He does mixing in his home, and he has links in his posts for some of the stuff he's done, notably Rick Larue (sp), Nutty and Mamabear/Janet.
More snow!? We got about 6" here, and most of it is still there. I've already missed 4 days of work since I can't get out of my driveway. One-hundred feet, uphill. My brother finally got out today and went to work, but my little Miata won't do it.
Looks like you have the right idea for recording the module into MC. Run a line out or record out from the mixer into the interface. If the module has nice stereo patches and/or effects, you would want to use a stereo input. Otherwise use a mono input in MC.
Set the input, press the R in the track to arm the track for recording, start the project and adjust the output from the module or mixer so the recording level doesn't go into the red (much) during the loudest parts of the song, stop the project, rewind it, then click the Record button in the transport toolbar. 
 
 

Greg 

Music Creator 2003, MC Pro 24, SONAR Home Studio 6 XL, SONAR  X3a, Focusrite Saffire, not enough space. 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=609446
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traphillman
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/01 16:51:27 (permalink)
Thanks, Greg.
 
I thought of how to try to set it up last night in my sleep!  This whole business is getting out of hand!  Ha!
 
I will keep your msg so I can find the people you suggested - if I ever get that far!  I have been remixing some of my original songs for the TTS this afternoon.
 
Time to walk down and get the mail.  Thanks, again.
 
Scott
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traphillman
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/02 21:45:09 (permalink)
Greg,
 
Another good set of tips/advice is on the PG Music Forum.  It is on the Tip and Tricks Forum and the title is My Tips.
 
The poster, Manning1 - I believe - has been posting detailed advice for about a year.  He has long posts with a lot of interesting ideas.
 
Scott
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/03 08:52:19 (permalink)
Scott....

A number of posts back you were asking about the drivers for BB/RB. That program will be able to use any of the drivers that are available. ASIO will also work.... however...... only one application at a time is able to use the ASIO driver.

So when I work, I open MC first so it "grabs" the ASIO driver. Then as I open BB or RB it has to settle for the default lappy soundcard driver. I can play my MC project through the Saffire with ASIO and listen to my BB project in my lappy with headphones.

I have opened BB first and it will automatically grab the ASIO and play through my Saffire too.

About the snow/ice..... school was closed for 2 days..... there is still ice in spots on the backroads (where the schools are) but they decided there had been enough lost days so school's back in today.  I got out and went to work yesterday, I was about to go crazy just setting around the house..... today.... it's paperwork and such things in the office.....

A note about BB.... it is a very complicated and "deep" program, what I do with it is just scratching the surface of what it can do...I'm sure of that. So there is a lot to learn, and hanging in the PG forums would be the place to really pick up on that stuff.

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traphillman
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/03 11:02:29 (permalink)
Thanks, Herb.

That explains some of the issues I have had assigning drivers.

Let me describe a process to see if anyone thinks I can carry it out with only my UA-25EX interface - it has two "in's" and two sets of "out's."  

If I can't do it with just one interface, can I do it with two interfaces (I am considering buying a Saffire model when they get their Win 7 driver out) - one for the signal from the computer to the mixer and the other for the signal from the mixer back to the computer and MC 5, or a similar program, for recording.

Basically, I would like to send a song with a file containing both midi and audio data from the computer into the mixer via an interface, add my vocal and record the mixer's output in MC 5 or a similar program in the computer - all at the same time. 

I suppose I would get the recorded data on only a single track - so perhaps it would be better to record the audio output from the mixer first and then record a second track with just the voice - right?  Or two separate tracks for stereo voice?

So, I open MC 5 first.  It takes the ASIO in and out. 

Then, using just the UA-25EX, can I send an audio signal out from BIAB/RB with the MME on a file with both midi and audio (real tracks) into one of the "in's" on the UA-25EX, use the interface to split the audio and the midi and patch them into my SD-20 and mixer.   I will add voice directly to the mixer, and then feed one "out"  from the mixer into the second "in" on the front of the interface. Can I expect the interface to simultaneously send the total audio signal from the mixer's output back to the computer to MC 5 and have it recorded there or will using the two "in's" in this manner just make a horrible mess (my guess is a mess!)?  I may have already asked you this question.

If I can't do the above with one interface, can I use two interfaces - one for the signal from the computer and one for the signal from the mixer back to the computer for recording?

Or is there a simpler or better way to accomplish what I would like to do?

I suppose this is all covered in Recording/Interfaces 101 somewhere.  I just haven't found this kind of basic information anywhere yet.  If there is something I should read to answer such questions rather than taking up the time of you kind people on this forum would someone please tell me where to find it!

Thanks, Scott


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Beagle
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/03 11:08:53 (permalink)
you do not want to try to use 2 interfaces.  that's a recipe for disaster.  only one of them will work in ASIO mode and neither of them will sync up to the other because they have different clocks, so your tracks will be out of sync with each other.

if I understand what you want to do, I do this all the time, but you're making it too complicated.  just export your tracks from BIAB or RB and then import them into MC5.  then use MC5 as the output to the mixer, and you can monitor your backing tracks while you record into the UA25EX.  simple stuff with a mixer, just don't try to use BIAB and MC at the same time. 

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Robomusic
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/03 11:26:21 (permalink)
With BiaB you can drag and drop the tracks directly into MC5. I have tried it iand it works great. Also you can open the tracks in RB and record the vocals there. I do this all the time and it works fine. RB and MC5 are very similar. Both are DX based in their background, and both are true DAW softwares programs. RB will use Cake effects and Cake will use PG effects nicely. They make very good partners.
As Beagle said any decent interface that has input and output can minitor the mix. The key ingredient is the mixer window in the software applet. The interface you have has everything you need to record with. The output can feed a set of monitor speakers, and the phone jack and monitor the mix. and the inputs. Just make sure that the software drivers are setup so that they are working on somekind of a mon mix setting and not a stereo mix setting so that you get the entire mix being fed into the newly recorded tracks.

I'd Seize the day but i can't quite reach it!

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57Gregy
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/03 11:42:41 (permalink)
So when I work, I open MC first so it "grabs" the ASIO driver. Then as I open BB or RB it has to settle for the default lappy soundcard driver. I can play my MC project through the Saffire with ASIO and listen to my BB project in my lappy with headphones.
-Guitarhacker
 
So, Herb, what driver does BiaB use? Have you tried using WDM so both programs can be open at the same time and use the same interface?
 
Scott, are you wanting to record, or perform live with your set up? For recording, putting each instrument (including voice) on seperate tracks is best, recording each seperately. That way if you make a simple mistake, timing, wrong note, forgot the lyric, you don't have to do everything over, just redo the bad part by re-recording that track or using punch-in recording.
For playing live, I don't know... but your description seems like it will work. Just beware of feedback.
 
 

Greg 

Music Creator 2003, MC Pro 24, SONAR Home Studio 6 XL, SONAR  X3a, Focusrite Saffire, not enough space. 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=609446
http://www.reverbnation.com/#!/gregfields 
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/03 11:59:37 (permalink)
Basically, I would like to send a song with a file containing both midi and audio data from the computer into the mixer via an interface, add my vocal and record the mixer's output in MC 5 or a similar program in the computer - all at the same time.

There is no need to send the music back out into an external mixer... simply send your new audio IN to an MC track and record it and mix it there. Sending it out and back in is too much work and complicates the issue..... keep it as simple as possible...... it will function better, and you will remain partially sane.
Why not do it all in MC?   Any full duplex soundcard/interface can handle that chore. I agree with Beagle..... pick ONE interface and use it, not 2 at the same time.....


Greg... when MC is opened first it grabs the ASIO driver and if I open BB it uses the WDM  or MME driver ..... I never check to see which one it grabs... but I listen to BB from my lappy soundcard (always).... what  I think is causing some confusion here is that I do not use BB in what many might consider the "normal" way.....

I use BB by itself as a sketch pad of sorts to work on and edit a tune. Once I have it where I like it.... I render the BB tracks to audio and export them to MC. I never intended to use BB as the final destination for my tunes... it is and has been a starting point for certain audio tracks that end up in MC. As such, I have no need to have BB work with ASIO. In fact, when I am working on a real track in real band, I almost never listen to anything in RB..... I always (99% of the time) export it directly to MC and listen there.

My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW   
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"Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer 
#69
traphillman
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/03 12:35:10 (permalink)
Thanks Reece, Rob, Herb, Greg!
 
One of my aims is to get the SD-20's sounds into any recording I do.
 
Another goal is to make the live performance and recording processes as simple as I can.
 
For live shows with midi only files I think I am set.  I will use the RB to play the midi files into the SD-20 via the USB.  I have been doing this for years using ProTracks or CakeWalk 3.  As a back-up I can play the TTS files I have prepared out the phones jack.
 
Playing live and sending files that contain midi and audio still is unclear to me.  But I assume I can send the audio and midi tracks to the mixer via the interface and split them out at the interface and send the midi to the SD-20 and the audio from the interface out to a separate mixer channel.  I haven't done it yet but I gather you all think that will work fine.
 
Recording as simply as possible is a longer term aim.  It seems to me that I should be able to simply record my voice via the interface onto a track in Real Band that already contains my midi/audio tracks, as Rob indicates.
 
I haven't had time to learn to use MC-5 yet but, if I do learn to use it, I understand that is an alternative. 
 
I don't know the advantages of using MC-5, or the recording software included with the interface, rather than recording directly into RB.  Perhaps you have some ideas about that.  I would appreciate the benefit of your experiences on that issue before I start investing my time in one of those three (MC-5, RB, provided software) alternatives.
 
I will probably initially opt for the alternative that is simplest and quickest to learn to see if I can get an acceptable quality of sound in the finished product.
 
So that leaves me with two areas of concern:  1.  getting the SD-20 sounds into the recording mix, and 2. selecting the simplest to learn method for recording sounds good enough to sell to interested buyers for $5 to $10 a CD.
 
I bet you all would be happy if I could just write a short post!  Ha!
 
Thanks, Scott
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/03 13:43:33 (permalink)
longer is good as long as it's focused....

So what you want to do is possible and easy. You can use Real Band OR MC or any other sequencer that handles midi and audio. Simply plug in the interface, and as long as it also handles audio and midi and has a midi out... you're in business.  the audio tracks come out of the audio outputs and the midi data is transmitted on the midi output.... you run a midi cable to the hardware synth(s) and assign the proper channels and you should have audio that plays in sync with the midi played through your onstage synth. 

I once saw a "band"...actually 2 guys that did that..... and had everything assigned to channels and ...well it was impressive.  Even the guitar and vocal harmonizer switched at the proper place in the song...lights too.

My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW   
Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface


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"Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer 
#71
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/03 13:59:18 (permalink)
Right, Herb.  I think I am set as far as live performances are concerned - even when I start to add real tracks to the midi.
 
I actually also have a Boss vocal effects/harmonizer on backorder that the mic will plug into before it goes in the mixer.  I haven't used one of them before and I am looking forward to receiving it to see if it lives up to the reviews. 
 
A one-man-band needs all the help it can get!
 
Thanks, Scott
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/03 15:04:38 (permalink)
Greg - BIAB is not programmed to use WDM driver mode and it also doesn't use full ASIO2 mode.  what I mean by that is that ASIO2 allows multiple applications to use the same ASIO driver (that is not to be confused with using multiple soundcard drivers - those are different things).

since BIAB does not allow multiple applications to use ASIO drivers, then if you are in ASIO mode in BIAB it will not allow sonar to use the soundcard at all.

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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/03 15:27:37 (permalink)
I typically use BiaB on MME drivers, and if WDM drivers are avaialble it will pick them up as well. PG programs do not differentiate betwen WDM and MME only that it is microsoft drivers VS ASIO. I run RB on ASIO as i do any DAW. On my laptop i use ASIO4All on RB as it doesn't have an interface, as I do not record there, only live playback.

In RB with both midi and audio tracks i use TTS as the midi and both that and the audio come out the audio outs. this hits my PA and blends with the vocals and guitars.

If I had a SD 20 or something i would let it handle the midi and the audio would go in the PA thru the audio out and the same is accomplished.

MC will handle the same chores as RB, but RB will scroll the lyrics and chords for me, so i prefer it. Which is great for a dummy who can't always remember the song.

I'd Seize the day but i can't quite reach it!

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57Gregy
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/03 19:21:28 (permalink)
If I was planning to do some live shows, I think I would put all the audio backing tracks on CDs and just play along with them.
The more stuff you put into the loop, the more that can go wrong. I would carry a couple-3 CDs and a couple CD players.
It would be different if I was ad libbing, making music and sounds in real-time, improvising. Then a computer could help, but It takes me months to finish one song! so it's unlikely that I would be quick enough for improvisation.

Greg 

Music Creator 2003, MC Pro 24, SONAR Home Studio 6 XL, SONAR  X3a, Focusrite Saffire, not enough space. 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=609446
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/03 20:35:22 (permalink)
Thanks, Rob. 
 
So I can see using TTS out the phones jack is a good alternative for files that have both midi and audio in live performances.  Using an ASIO4All driver in RB it all goes out the phones jack and then into the mixer channels.  I hope I got it right.
 
I'll try it all as soon as the basement warms up some.
 
Thanks, Scott
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/03 20:39:19 (permalink)
Greg, thanks. 
 
I will have to think about the CD approach.  I'd have to get all 500 songs on the CD and then be able to get around quickly to take requests.  I have to see how the selection process works when going from one song to another.
 
In RB I can just push two hot keys to go to the next song in the play list when I am not hopping around the playlist to find a request or adapt to a percieved mood in the audience.
 
I'll work on it .  Thanks, Scott
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57Gregy
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/03 21:11:08 (permalink)
Oh! You take requests!
That's an entirely different animal than playing a pre-arranged set. A CD, or a bunch of CDs in your case, would be a little hard to navigate; "now which CD is it that has 'Feelings' on it?"

Greg 

Music Creator 2003, MC Pro 24, SONAR Home Studio 6 XL, SONAR  X3a, Focusrite Saffire, not enough space. 

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=609446
http://www.reverbnation.com/#!/gregfields 
#78
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/03 21:28:05 (permalink)
Traphillman,

Since you already have MC4, try to use that for regular recording and Mixing. The PG music software is OK, but can get complex or limitted for recording purposes. That's because their products are oriented to their specialty. By limitted I mean scalability. With the Sonar products you can go up, meaning the effort in learning is an investment that is not limitted by a specialty. Scalability here means also that one can learn and progress on a 'what you need" basis.. I am rather new to Sonar but this is my view so far.

I thing the advice to use cd's or other means to playback AUDIO tracks for backing is good, and a mixture that you can handle, and are confident upon is also good. Simplicity is good. Being greedy ruins it for me. The middle ground is somewhere in between, though, I would say.

I am not sure if you are a keyboard-player singer..If so, quite a few of those use an arranger keyboard, and combinations of MIDI/wav files.

Another alternative for what I read you are seeking is the Sonic Cell. That one is an audio interface, has builtin hardware synth, AND plays MIDI files, wav files, and mp3's, standalone, or with pc, or connects to a keyboard. As a synth, I believe it is one of the best ones...I don't have one yet, though. It is a little more cost than the average audio interface, but it has many more uses.

For improving sound, don't forget that it's drums and bass that can make a big difference when playing MIDI. Realistic drums make a big difference...PG music realized that and that's what started their Real Tracks business..I've had PG software since it came in 5" disks for D.O.S. they have great talent and products, but as said, it's a specialty...Their proprietary Music Styles is their backbone.

Also, if you are not using an Equalizer, try it. It can make a big difference, spcially if you go to different places to play.

Hope all's the best.


post edited by NoKey - 2010/02/03 21:30:01
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/03 21:29:10 (permalink)
Navigating any setup with 500 songs is not gonna be easy...... I would opt to put the songs in my lappy as high quality MP3 (320kb) and set them up with some sort of alphabetical sorting so they;re easy to find.... CD's would be very difficult to work (especially with the request factor) ... a computer would be the easiest using mp3..... I have a buddy that does this very thing.... live...even does Karioke with the lappy.

My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW   
Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface


BMI/NSAI

"Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer 
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/04 14:47:15 (permalink)
To me RB is not more complicated than MC5. BiaB might be but Rb is just a straight DAW with a flavor of BiaB mixed in for drum tracks and real tracks. But to record on it works great. Also it has playback live abilities that MC does not. Actually if you want to really get fancy BiaB even has more live work features. With the conductor and juke box features. Still i prefer RB. I use mostly midi file i have picked up and reworked.

I'd Seize the day but i can't quite reach it!

http://www.acidplanet.com/artist.asp?AID=33477&T=1260
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traphillman
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Re:TTS Problem in BAnd in a Box? 2010/02/06 09:41:55 (permalink)
Thanks Rob, NoKey, and Herb.
 
You all have helped me accelerate along my learning curve.  I too  use mostly midi files that I have picked up or bought and reworked. 
 
PG Music was mailing out 3 and 1/2" floppies when I started with them.  Probably 200 or so of my files are ones I did myself, but now the ones I can buy are so good that I will only get back into making my own from scratch when I can learn to get the most out of the Real Tracks.
 
I am primarily a singer - with a little guitar, no keyboard.
 
I like the idea of recording with MC 5 and, through it, learned more about audio as I go along.  The idea of just using Real Band to record sounds the easiest since I have already learned a great deal about PG Music products over the years.  So, if I am lucky, I will experiment with both of them.  My PSA was up at this year's physical and that could change a few things in the long run, but I hope not. 
 
I will look for the Sonic item.  Thanks for the suggestions and opinions you have each provided.  I respect you opinions, appeciate your suggestions, and am thankful for your friendship. 
 
Time to get back to work on When the Sun Goes Down!
 
Scott
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