TTS-1 guitar. Take 2

The best virtual electric guitar simulation as VSTi I'm aware of is reFX's Slayer2.
Just give it a try, there is a full-featured demo-version available. I was so much impressed by it's sound that I bought it instantly some time ago.
http://www.refx.net/pro_Slayer2.htm?lang=eng

cheers,
Chris

I'm sorry to say I've yet to find a satisfying 'MIDI-made' guitar sound... Because of artritis I cannot play guitar anymore. Apart from MusicLabs RealGuitar, which offers pretty good sounds (sampled) of acoustic guitar, I've found nothing yet...

Each and every 'MIDI-guitar' indeed cries SYNTH! Even Slayer, as you say: it misses the extra's (pickingsound, irregularities, fretnoise, the lot) of a real guitar. Most MIDI-guitars sound too clean: the basic tone is too 'steady'. They all miss body.

The pitchwheel can't be compared to a real bend, no way! The pitch wheel is too clean too. (Edit: I'm talking in general here, not specific about your tune, although what I say applies to it too... ;))

I think that bringing in small mistakes (just a little bit out of tune bends) might make things more real. A lot less quantizing might do wonders too...

I used to simulate pull-offs and hammer-ons by manually entering pitchwheel commands that went from zero to 127 (or whatever) instantly. When created well, they can sound nice.
Also, you really got to keep in mind what is possible on a real guitar (which strings and notes can or cannot sound simultaniously)! That's more important than everyone thinks!

Still, so far I only managed to make one tune that fooled a few people. But not all... Even with a AWESOME sound it takes a lot of programming (manually editing the midi) to make it sound real! I wonder if it can be done... Although, as I said, MusicLabs RealGuitar has a really nice sound (which the right extra noises and all).

I hope this thread will show the way to a REALLY good electric guitar sound I can use! (And no, I don't like Virtual Guitar because it's not free enough...)

ORIGINAL: OldGeezer

Actually I own Slayer2 (bought it along with FL Studio). Bought Sonar4 a week or so later. I find Slayer has a nice cab/amp/fx sim (it's what I used on the lead in this exercise) but the strings sound off with such a perfect uniformity that it screams "synthesizer!!!". Since the TTS-1 is sample-based, from the attack to the following ring of the string there is a somewhat realistic tonal variance. Slayer seems only to give you a twangy picking sound and a perfectly uniform tone. This may not matter for some styles (wailing Satriani-style solos/filler), but for something like blues, I dunno about Slayer 2.

I tried doing the same solo with Slayer and no matter what preset/settings I used it just sounded cheesy. I'd be happy to post the background track and let someone do some Slayer blues (hint hint)...Someone should organize synth-guitar thread or even a contest so we can see what everyone is all up to! Twould be nice to see how much of this community dabbles in such things.

Well, I don't want to start an argument here, but the sampled guits in the TTS-1 sound just like all these other lo-fi sampled guits one can find in various GM-sets or keyboards etc.
They are completely static. No variation, no human-touch, no picking-noises, etc.
Maybe it's a matter of taste, but I find Slayer2 a very capable synth when one knows how to use it properly.

cheers,
Chris

I can't give you a blues/jazz example for two reasons: a) I'm not at all into blues or jazz and hence don't know how a guitar has to sound there and b) I can't play "real" guitar myself.
I only use Slayer2 for background-chords and stuff like that, but there is sounds WAY better than everything else sample-based I ever got my hands on, except a real guitar played by a real guitarist, of course!
So, sorry, I can't provide you any example to do a direct comparison here. But still I'm sorry, but I don't find that the example you've posted in your initial post doesn't sound realistic to me.

cheers,
Chris

ORIGINAL: OldGeezer

Then why are you telling me Slayer2 can do it better? Especially when I specifically said I tried to do the same solo with Slayer2?

Maybe because I simply hate that "typical GM guitar-sound" that TTS-1 also has. It sounds way too clean. Maybe one ca hear come picking-noises with a certain patch, but it still does not alternate in any way. If I playback the MIDI-track trough such a sample-based solution it always sounds exactly the same, there are no "defects" and no imperfection. This is not the case with Slayer2.

No need to apologize friend, I know it doesn't sound realistic (that's why I'm trying to get a discussion going on it). But I also know, from personal experience, it sounds even less realistic with Slayer, wether you believe me or not .

It's not that I don't want to believe you, it's just very hard to believe for me. Maybe I have just heard too many bad-and-ugly-sampled "wannabe"-guitar patches in synths and keyboards in my life yet.
Btw, have you tried to increase the "humanize" setting in Slayer2 yet?

cheers,
Chris

@dan le: Sorry, but I did not try to attack OldGeezer here, nor did I try to bash OldGeezer's playing techniques which are indeed stunning!
It's just about the sound of TTS-1 and Slayer2 where OldGeezer and me have a different opinion as it seems.

cheers,
Chris

Oh and dan le....in the spirit of sharing, which is what I'd like this thread to be about, you mention my pitch bend eh? What if I told you that pitchbending was done after I recorded the riff from my keyboard?

You see, if you listen very closely, when I do those pitchbend riffs, you can hear the same note being hit twice...the first note bends up to pitch, and a second note of the same pitch sounds and rings together with the first for a moment. This is what really happens on a guitar, as one string bends to pitch, and the string above it is at the same pitch (because of the left-hand fingering). It is one of the most basic moves in blues/rock guitar. It is also impossible to play on a single synth as the pitchbend wheel affects all notes it is playing, so you have to open two instances of the synth, and use the second whenever a bent string needs to sound at the same time as a non-bent one. Essentially you have two separate strings that can bend independantly, which it the first step I believe one needs to take in seriously simulating a guitar. You've got to know at least the basic mechanics of guitar playing and create solutions and workarounds in your technique....think outside the box so to speak.

So when I lay out the riff, I purposely don't bend the notes (sounds like crap) and then in piano roll (which allows you to overlap the parts of your two strings...woohoo) I delete the notes I'm going to bend, and then add the notes in the same spot but with the other synth highlighted. Then I simply hit record and hit the pitchbend wheel at the right times...takes a few tries but eventually you nail it. You really have to have the music worked out in your head before you start though.

So there, hopefuly someone will get something out of this.

I shouldn't call it a pitching trick: it's just a guitar technique! Well, this shows that in order to create convincing MIDI-guitarparts you got to be a guitarist...

And if you want VERY precise pitch bends, don't use the wheel and record it but DRAW it all by hand! Gives you the most control! You can ptichbend perfectly then OR not so perfectly but maybe more realistic!

I have never found a decent guitar emulation for recording that approximates a good old tube amp including Hardware units.

I have owned a Digitech RP2000 a Digitech GNX2 (I still have it) A PodXT which I sold, and a Vox Tonelab which I still have. Of all of them I find the Digitech GNX2 the best for live use and the Tonelab the best for recording. The Tonelab has the most stunning clean sounds and fair to middlin overdrives. It is one dimensional as far as sound variation is concerned, meaning that it has the least tonal variation among the different models, clean vs clean, and overdrive vs overdrive. They all sound pretty much the same.

The GNX2 on the other hand has a great amount of Tonal Variations and the best effects of all the modelers I have tried with the exception of the PodXT reverb unit which is stunning in it's quality.

You can hear the PodXT, the Tonelab, and the GNX2 on my Harvey Cedars page link below.

I also have Guitar Rig, and Amplitube, both of which I find almost useless (to my ears although some folks get good results from them)

If it ain't got tubes and speakers, it sounds artificial to me, although the Tonelab comes closest and equals a real tube amp for the clean sounds. None of them cut it for overdrives compared to a tube amp unless you put them through a tube amp and mike it.

A PodXT or the Tonelab sound real through an Atomic Reactor amp however. Real good

ORIGINAL: J van R
Yes, like after a up-pitchbend you can draw a very short 'downbend' again at the end of the note, which you hear quit often with real guitarists because they have to let go of the string in order to go to the next note! Those little things are more easily dran than recorded!

I never noticed that! Great suggestion. I've written it down on my "to investigate" list.

Hmm, sympatico will not let me upload a cwp file even if I zip it or rename it to mp3. I get an ftp error no matter what I do. Still lets me upload genuine mp3 files. It will let me upload a zipped mp3 but not a zipped cwp. Sympatico's scanner evidently does not like cakewalk project files.

@dan le: Sorry, but I did not try to attack OldGeezer here, nor did I try to bash OldGeezer's playing techniques which are indeed stunning!
It's just about the sound of TTS-1 and Slayer2 where OldGeezer and me have a different opinion as it seems.

cheers,
Chris

Hey, I am glad to reply to me the way you did, showed class and compassion for others.

To Old:
If you are kind enough, can you post a link to that midi file. I would like to see how the heck you did that wheel. I did just what you said many times before but my pitch wheel must not work well or that my wrist had CTS or something else, but I can never bend that wheel the evilish way you did. On the Korg site, there was a demo of pitch bend of their country guitar on the Triton, and I think they did less fantastic than you did.
Sincerely to both you and Tonmann.

Thanks for the tips! Mod Bod and Patrice...I'll check out those sites for sure.

And Dan Le, I tried everything I could to upload a small tutorial project showing how I did those bend, but Sympatico refuses to let me post it, doesn't matter if I zip it or change the file extention.

I don't think simply sending a midi-file will do it coz you have to set it up in your project too. If you know where I can upload a small .cwp project file (346kb) or if you want me to e-mail it to you, let me know.

Uh-Oh. I messed up. Is there such thing as a TSS-1? I corrected a typo in the thread title...I had mistakenly called it the TSS-1 instead of the TTS-1, which is corrected.

I remember getting clicks on the TTS-1 once or twice, but it's nothing I can reproduce...mighta had something to do with running it through certain FX.

Done.

BTW...I didn't spend any time making it sound pretty, it's just a crude example of how you do that classic move.

ORIGINAL: Patrice Brousseau

You definitely have a good keyboard technique to emulate real guitar playing. Did you ever tried the Ultimate Guitar Kit soundfont? It is the best free guitar sound I heard so far. Surely with your technique it could sound incredible.

To obtain the soundfont, you must go to http://audioshots.com/auditorium/index.php and then register. You'll find the link to the guitar font in the "Soundfonts" section.

WOW! Did I say I have never heard a convincing midi-sequenced electric guitar? I take it all back! I listened to the sample mp3 in that Ultimate Guitar Kit topic and MAN, it sounds too real to be true! I'm going to download it NOW and give it a try! :)