DeeringAmps
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/26 18:30:02
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I feel like a punching bag! ;~}
Tom Deering Tascam FW-1884 User Resources Page Firewire "Legacy" Tutorial, Service Manual, Schematic, and Service Bulletins Win10x64 StudioCat Pro Studio Coffee Lake 8086k 32gb RAM RME UFX (Audio) Tascam FW-1884 (Control) in Win 10x64 Pro
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bitflipper
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/26 20:53:14
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DeeringAmps I feel like a punching bag! ;~}
Hey, me too! But my wife keeps reminding me she has a license to push me around, signed by a duly-appointed justice of the peace in 1976.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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sharke
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/26 21:49:48
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bitflipper
DeeringAmps You can "fix" the peaks that way, but the "nulls" will still be nulls. My guess is that ARC does some phase shifting to "fix" the nulls. It helps a lot in my room. YMMV T
A reasonable guess, Tom, based on the fact that IKM don't go out of their way to dispel that presumption. In fact, they're annoyingly vague about what ARC really does, preferring that you just chalk it up to magic.
A bit like this?
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bitflipper
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/26 22:19:01
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No, that's entirely different. I've seen the documentary. One Ronald Weasley drove that exact same car into a tree.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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losguy
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 01:53:34
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Here is something I ran across recently - Mathaudio Room EQ VST. It appears to work similar to ARC and they do make the similar claims, but they seem slightly less "obtuse" about it. To the OP's top post, it's certainly cheaper to buy (no mic included in price), and you can download and try it for free! Not shilling here, it's just been on my short-list of "wiry and speaker-y" things to do in the studio. I already have an ECM-8000 (I know - a dubious honor) so I suppose I'm partway there.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 07:40:42
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Wow: Look at that resultant frequency response: That white line is as straight, maybe straighter, than the competition's white line.
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DeeringAmps
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 08:47:03
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☄ Helpfulby mike_mccue 2014/06/27 09:07:43
I get that same response, but it's about -80 db; when everything is off! :€}
Tom Deering Tascam FW-1884 User Resources Page Firewire "Legacy" Tutorial, Service Manual, Schematic, and Service Bulletins Win10x64 StudioCat Pro Studio Coffee Lake 8086k 32gb RAM RME UFX (Audio) Tascam FW-1884 (Control) in Win 10x64 Pro
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batsbrew
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 10:04:36
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all that is doing, is subtracting everything out to a bottom line.. looks like you lost more than 80% of the original signal... that CAN'T sound good!
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bitflipper
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 10:18:24
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Just once I'd like to see somebody publish before-and-after waterfall plots. It'll never happen, though.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 10:25:37
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There are some very happy real life experiences shared here: http://mathaudio.com/testimonials.htm This one is my favorite: "A few days ago I came across your foobar Room EQ plugin. First a big THANK YOU for this wonderful plugin. I tried to EQ my speakers and quickly made 4 measurements (with a calibrated mic). The speakers are full rangers in a "test" card box setup, (my real speakers are on repair :-( ) which can not sound good in that "enclosure" and the frequency response is far from ideal. With your correction the sound improved very much. I then tried to EQ a portable speaker (Canton DSS 103). The results where stunning! I asked my two children (6 and 8) if they preferred the EQed sound and which version sounded more real. The answers were very clear that by far the EQed version was much better and "live" sounding. Of course I adjusted the loudness with pink noise for the corrected / uncorrected slider to match.Peter"
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 10:31:52
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☄ Helpfulby bapu 2014/06/27 13:46:05
bitflipper Just once I'd like to see somebody publish before-and-after waterfall plots. It'll never happen, though.
:-) The vendors should do it. In the meantime I'm left to assume that the flat white line in one app is every bit as a good as the flat white line in another app.
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drewfx1
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 12:28:57
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bitflipper Just once I'd like to see somebody publish before-and-after waterfall plots. It'll never happen, though.
Never is a long time. :)
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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losguy
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 12:39:57
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I'd expect that the perfect flat response is at the mic location, with the same measurement mic unmoved from the spot, and probably using only one mic location. Move the mic a few inches (or maybe less) and I believe it will look considerably different. They do point out in their lit that perfect flatness is the secondary objective, and if I read correctly, you can set a target response for the amount of correction (or maybe limiting over-correction). Not sure if ARC offers that, but still worth a mention. I agree that these apps are not a panacea, but can help 1) if you already have corrected the big stuff with traps, diffusers, etc. and want that "last few dB" of clarity and focus, or 2) you are stuck with a lousy environment and need whatever help that you can get, limitations or not. All told, if it can tame fluctuations down to even a couple (or few dB) over a sweet spot bigger than the size of my head, then I think I'll take it happily. Response attenuation in 64-bit floating-point samples is not a big deal - you can easily correct for 20-30dB with insignificant impact on the audible dynamic range at the final rendering to linear bits. You only really need to compensate for the gain reduction before or after the fact (metering with pink noise or your favorite program material should do the trick).
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 13:00:45
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Bose uses an active technology to modify environmental sound conditions. Here's an example: Cadillac "Active noise cancelation also contributes to the Cadillac CTS sedan’s refined performance, reducing noise levels by up to 20 decibels in certain conditions. It is enabled by the Bose sound system and a unique processor that takes input from several interior-mounted microphones and sends opposite-tuned frequencies through the sound system’s speakers to cancel out undesirable sounds." I am trying to understand how a electronics engineer can *flat line* a room without using some sort of dynamic correction. That is why I keep, optimistically, imagining the use of dynamic convolution. I suspect it is easier to imagine that a flat line response is possible if you are imagining the *wiggly line* is a static or averaged response. In real time the response experienced, in a enclosed space with reflections, is wiggling up and down all over the place over the course of time. If you use a Real Time Analyzer in a room you see how the response is wiggling all over the place through the course of time and the idea of a single drawing of a *wiggly line* begins to seem like an overly simplified abstraction of what is really being experienced at the listening position. I think I understand how a FIR filter can use a single impulse response to alter the phase of the output compared to the input. I struggle to imagine how any technology that uses a single impulse can be adroit, and offer the sort of constant corrections, that I suspect are necessary, to approach an ideal such as a flat line graphic represents. I keep imagining that the circumstance demands some sort of dynamic application of a series of rapidly applied corrections. The BOSE technology such as the example of it cited above makes sense to me. It seems relatively simple. Real time sampling and an active application of near real time corrections resulting in near real time control. ?
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 13:32:12
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Been off reading for a few moments... Continuous Time systems?
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drewfx1
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 13:45:24
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mike_mccue I am trying to understand how a electronics engineer can *flat line* a room without using some sort of dynamic correction. That is why I keep, optimistically, imagining the use of dynamic convolution. I suspect it is easier to imagine that a flat line response is possible if you are imagining the *wiggly line* is a static or averaged response. In real time the response experienced, in a enclosed space with reflections, is wiggling up and down all over the place over the course of time. If you use a Real Time Analyzer in a room you see how the response is wiggling all over the place through the course of time and the idea of a single drawing of a *wiggly line* begins to seem like an overly simplified abstraction of what is really being experienced at the listening position. I think I understand how a FIR filter can use a single impulse response to alter the phase of the output compared to the input. I struggle to imagine how any technology that uses a single impulse can be adroit, and offer the sort of constant corrections, that I suspect are necessary, to approach an ideal such as a flat line graphic represents. I keep imagining that the circumstance demands some sort of dynamic application of a series of rapidly applied corrections.
It just depends on the degree to which the room's response is linear. If your signal is wiggling on its own, the response will also wiggle. I believe that, ignoring things like absorption* and speaker distortion, the response due to reflected sound is linear. Note that the impulse response captures response of the reflections until they fall below the noise floor. *Hmmm...
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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losguy
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 13:53:16
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More like DSP, along the lines of Finite Impulse Response (FIR) multipath channel compensators: http://dsp-book.narod.ru/spra140.pdfhttp://www.cplire.ru/rus/informchaoslab/papers/iccsc04ak.pdf A multipath channel has a direct path and other paths (echoes) with different delays and attenuations, where the attenuations may themselves be frequency-dependent. For studios, this translates to the idea of the mirror technique in your room, tracing out the line path that waves take from your speakers to your ear(s). The compensator for multipath uses the information in the main and echo paths to create a filter (a convolution operation) whose coefficients equalize out the echo paths and leave the main path as much by itself as possible. In the second paper above, the multipath channel's impulse response is in Figure 5, and the compensated result is in Figure 7. The spike in the second figure is what you want, and the junk along the baseline is what's left. Techniques like these can actually compensate for echoes that produce complete nulls in the frequency response. It sounds weird, I know, but it's because they operate in the time domain. The lit from IKM and MathAudio don't emphasize this, but this has been "the way to do it" for, like 20+ years now. Perhaps they emphasize the frequency domain because they're using it to apply a type of constraint that the user can specify over the process, to limit over-compensation at certain frequencies, for example. Edit: What's really new to what they are doing, that I can tell, is applying this tech to the case of studio acoustics, accommodating and optimizing over multiple mic positions, and adding the constraint of "target responses" specified in the frequency domain *amplitude* response, and of course, packaging it as a VST plugin. On waterfall plots: As long as the room is not too reverberant, the above techniques act to convert the cluster of reflection impulses to a single main-path spike, but only at the measurement point (the mic). Widening that point out to the size of a watermelon is challenge enough, going wider than that is where I'd like to see the proof in the pudding.
post edited by losguy - 2014/06/27 13:58:48
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bapu
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 13:53:22
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If I had the money I'd buy two ARC 2s. Gotta be twice as good. Or....... three. LRC.
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bapu
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 13:54:07
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Good thing I don't have a 5.1 setup. I'm sure IKM will not sell me .1 ARC 2.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 14:08:37
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losguy More like DSP, along the lines of Finite Impulse Response (FIR) multipath channel compensators: http://dsp-book.narod.ru/spra140.pdf http://www.cplire.ru/rus/informchaoslab/papers/iccsc04ak.pdf A multipath channel is on that has a direct path and other paths (echoes) with different delays and attenuations, where the attenuations may themselves be frequency-dependent. It translate to the idea of the mirror technique in your room, tracing out the line path that waves take from your speakers to your ear(s). The compensator uses the information in the main and echo paths to create a filter (a convolution operation) whose coefficients equalize out the echo paths and leave the main path as much by itself as possible. In the second paper above, the multipath channel's impulse response is in Figure 5, and the compensated result is in Figure 7. The spike is what you want, and the junk is what's left. Techniques like these can actually compensate for echoes that produce complete nulls in the frequency response. It sounds weird, I know, but it's because they operate in the time domain. The lit from IKM and MathAudio don't emphasize this, but this has been "the way to do it" for, like 20+ years now. Perhaps they describe their use of the frequency domain as a type of constraint that the user can apply to the process, to limit over-compensation at certain frequencies, for example.
The first link or example, http://dsp-book.narod.ru/spra140.pdf, seems to be focused on radio transmissions where there is dsp operating at the receiving end to help facilitate the ability to resolve to the center tap. I don't have a dsp chip running in my ears... yet.
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drewfx1
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 14:28:04
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mike_mccue I don't have a dsp chip running in my ears... yet.
Actually your ears do act as a dsp chip and they perform a process known as "lossy compression" before the signal reaches your brain.
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 14:53:36
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You make a good point. :-)
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 15:10:30
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drewfx1
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 16:05:17
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It's the same thing. The basic idea is simple - the room is acting as a filter at the listening position. IOW the room is doing the exact same thing to the signal as DSP doing convolution with the room's IR. To any extent that that isn't true, the criticisms are legitimate (such as any non-linear response isn't captured, a different listening position doesn't match the IR, etc). But to the extent that it is, it's a purely mathematical problem and you are just trying to create a correcting filter that is the inverse of the filtering done by the room. If you can create a filter (the room's IR) that contains a very complicated response over time, can you or can't you create a filter with an inverse response to that?
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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losguy
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 16:58:13
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Thanks for chiming in Drew - saved me some typing while I was out to lunch! Also, regarding radio transmission vs audio acoustics, both deal with waves propagating through a medium, and so *at that level* have very similar (if not identical) mathematics to describe them. The waves are different (transverse vs longitudinal) as are the propagation mediums and the mechanisms of distortion, but the lines of propagation and reflection still look the same when you model the propagation channel (e.g. as a filter).
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 16:59:26
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"can you or can't you create a filter with an inverse response to that?" I think that you can. But, I'm not sure how I feel about the idea that a room will have a linear response with regards to any practical or real life experience. Isn't that why "anechoic" chambers were invented? One would think that a rectangular room with bare walls can have predictable peaks and nulls right where the math says they will be, but every time I've run a RTA test in one I have found that the results vary from the anticipation. Discounting absorption of wall surfaces and presuming constant surface reflectivity characteristics, I'd want to learn more about: Is the impedance of air "linear"? Is RT60 Frequency dependent? How does varying *musical content* energize a room compared to an all pass sweep or chirp? It seems to me that the synthesis, as a room is charged with energy featuring differing frequency components, will create varying interactions with results that differ from an idealized flat response. That's why I keeping thinking, wrongly or rightly, that a system needs to have an active component to make corrections that achieve the results that are suggested by displaying a flat line. If ARC et al. actually provided an opportunity to test its results instead of simply drawing a "predictive display line" I think it would be very informative. Corrections welcomed!!!
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 17:10:06
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losguy Thanks for chiming in Drew - saved me some typing while I was out to lunch! Also, regarding radio transmission vs audio acoustics, both deal with waves propagating through a medium, and so *at that level* have very similar (if not identical) mathematics to describe them. The waves are different (transverse vs longitudinal) as are the propagation mediums and the mechanisms of distortion, but the lines of propagation and reflection still look the same when you model the propagation channel (e.g. as a filter).
I would think it would be even harder to predict the perfect FIR for radio response as the environmental circumstances are constantly changing. Is that what the "decision-feedback equalization" schemes mentioned in the papers are helping with?
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losguy
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 17:25:15
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@Mike, Anechoic chambers are not for reducing nonlinearity, they're for reducing, well, echoes as would come from waves reflecting off of surfaces. (Radio antennas are tested in anechoic chambers too, for the same reason BTW. Only the materials used there are to absorb radio waves.) I took an interest in the idea you raised about of distortion due to the air medium itself. According to this ancient paper, it looks like you need about 100 dB SPL for things to get noticeable. (Of course, at that level, other things will be noticeable, too.) http://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/21/95/66/PDF/ajp-jphyscol197940C860.pdfThey did the experiment at 20 kHz, but the effects should translate to lower frequencies, at least roughly. I noticed that they had to take great pains to find a way of generating the acoustic waves at levels approaching 160 dB SPL without distortion from the transducer itself. Quite a feat, I'd say, even in this day and age (that is, unless someone just happens to have a 160 dB SPL acoustic sinewave source to tell me otherwise).
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losguy
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 17:31:52
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mike_mccue I would think it would be even harder to predict the perfect FIR for radio response as the environmental circumstances are constantly changing. Is that what the "decision-feedback equalization" schemes mentioned in the papers are helping with?
Yes, there are ways of casting the problem in an adaptive form, and at the receiving end only, too. There, you assume something about the target response that you're looking for, and "train" the system to always reach for that goal in the equalizer. For communications systems, it can be about sharpening the shape of the "bits" as they come in. For speech, it can be about reducing echoes just over the speech bandwidth - and this is exactly what they do in the Polycom teleconferencing units and speakerphones (and all phones for that matter!).
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drewfx1
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Re: Talking of ARC ...
2014/06/27 17:46:22
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mike_mccue Discounting absorption of wall surfaces and presuming constant surface reflectivity characteristics, I'd want to learn more about: Is the impedance of air "linear"?
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-air.htm Is RT60 Frequency dependent?
Yes, but it is captured by the IR. How does varying *musical content* energize a room compared to an all pass sweep or chirp? To get the IR, you want to make sure every frequency of interest is present and also want to minimize problems caused by ambient noise. But you're right - no one wants to get up and dance to a sweep or chirp.
In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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