Helpful ReplyTechnique for "organic" pads?

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abacab
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/22 01:25:31 (permalink)
Mix this little freebie up with Diffuser and have some fun!  Frohmage from Ohm Force! 
 
https://www.ohmforce.com/ViewProduct.do?p=Frohmage
 
This plug-in is a multi-band resonant filter: it is built using a resonant low-pass filter running in parallel with multiple band-pass filters. These are then followed by a distortion stage.
 
Start with a sample or a synth sound and go from there! 

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savageopera
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/23 02:31:55 (permalink)
oops wrong thread.

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#32
occide
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/24 09:26:10 (permalink)
That Biotek thingy is nice, haven't seen it before.
 
I've played with frohmage a while ago, again no very good results. After all digging it comes down to not having one great Reverb but a ton of different ones. Same goes for instruments.
 
I've already added Diffuser to my collection, wish it was bug free.
 
Prices are nuts. So I figured I'd rather buy one-for-all like UVI Falcon and maybe Phalanx, cause I need a sampler anyway. Again, prices are freaking NUTS, 349€ for Falcon wtf? Everyone's doing this sales crap, just double the price for the rich and the crazy. Then "sell" at regular price. I can see a regular price of 179€ for Falcon, sales price maybe 149€ - which by the way was about the introduction price 3 years ago.
 
400€ here, 300€ there, you could spend like 10.000€ and still lack a ton of plugs you want.
 
Anyway, back to topic, for now my workflow is to record traditional digital synth to audio, load em into Iris 2 and mix / mangle them together, which isn't too bad for either workflow (relatively quick) or results.
#33
abacab
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/24 18:22:52 (permalink)
I took a look at that Iris 2 thingy, now kinda wished I hadn't, LOL!  It's on sale for $126 right now.  Already blown my budget for this month, so will have a few new features to add to my Synthmaster V3 wish list!  Need to go post over on KV331's forum!
 
Iris 2 is a sample based synthesizer with a killer workflow for building sounds from scratch quickly.
 
I really like how Iris allows spectral filtering of multiple wave samples, in both dimensions of time and frequency.  Take a little part of one sample and blend it with part of another, and so on.
 
The graphic display really shows what is happening, and you can see the waves in a timeline type view like a DAW.
 
By comparison, Biotek is also a sample based synthesizer, but it's strength seems to be using multiple LFOs and modulation routing to achieve the movement within the sounds.  The x-y pad in the main page display allows realtime morphing between different sounds, so it is very organic sounding.  It also ships with mostly wave samples of nature sounds, so you have plenty of ambient source material to tweak.
 
But for the same money, I would probably pick Iris 2.  It looks like it would be more productive.  It is also very unique with the spectral filtering, and the workflow is very intuitive and visual.  If using the LFOs and mod matrix is what gets you going, maybe Biotek is for you, but this is what keeps me from digging deeper into Synthmaster.  It can be done, but it takes some work ...

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#34
occide
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/24 20:39:56 (permalink)
I got Iris 2 at around the same price. Although all you said is true, it's also a bit limited. There're these unique and extremely powerful options you mentioned, on the other hand I feel some very basic stuff is missing.
 
There're more LFOs and Envelopes than you could possibly map in a useful manner to the handful of manipulation options. Little unbalanced here.
 
Also if you want to use a send effect per part the global fx can't be used anymore.
 
The master filter section can only be added globally and not per part. I think that's the biggest issue. At first I thought it wouldn't make sense to have another frequency filter on top of the spectral filtering (also frequency based), but it makes sense if they existed and you could animate them via LFO.
 
Still no regrets on that buy, neither on Iris 2 nor on Neutron I got as Crossgrade from Iris 2 for around 80€. What a timesaver. I love that, simplicity and stuff that just works so I can be creative and not be stuck on technical stuff.
(I was really lucky to find it at the time, I think it was a leftover from a previous sale. Pluginboutique listed the Crossgrade at the same price as the full version.)
 
EDIT: Been talking away.. What I wanted to share about Iris is that you have to make a little shift in mindset. A good part of creating the patch happens outside Iris. And it's not always as simple as mashing 4 random samples from your personal library together.
#35
abacab
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/24 21:39:58 (permalink)
occide
 And it's not always as simple as mashing 4 random samples from your personal library together.




Happy accidents! 

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#36
occide
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/25 06:18:25 (permalink)
Happy little clouds :)
 
Not sure how I overlooked this for so long:
http://glitchmachines.com/downloads/hysteresis/
 
And of course:
http://glitchmachines.com/downloads/fracture/
 
For free that makes an excellent combo with Iris 2.
#37
Jeff Evans
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/25 12:36:58 (permalink)
Getting back to very organic sounds or what sounds like them, the granulars are excellent at this. The more organic the original sample is before Granite or Mangle gets to work then the more organic and very complex does the produced pad sound result. Granite and The Mangle do not sound alike and although they are both granulars they do different things resulting in the different sounds.  Granite has enormous modulation options (of parameters) and the means to create the modulations with your own self expression and record and playback those moves accurately. That is a pretty cool thing to watch. 
 
Imagine making sounds with Granite and then importing into Mangle and going further. Or import a Granite or Mangle sound into Iris 2 and manipulate from there.  Increases the possibilities.
 
Making very closeup and quality recordings of things very natural, instruments but also many day to day sounds is rich food for all three synths mentioned here to get to work on.

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#38
occide
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/25 13:55:01 (permalink)
I considered buying Glitchmachines Polygon today - it's pretty cheap atm and comes with an extra sample pack. Yawn - sample pack... but the Glitchmachines sample packs are excellent for this cause. They have two packs for free I tried out today. These you actually can throw into Iris as they are and get a cool pad sound.
 
What holds me back is that Polygon is monophonic, and I cant find a single example on the web of a pad created by Polygon. Maybe because it's monophonic.  Anyone can help me out here?
 
Just as another "mangler" for preparing a patch for Iris I don't want it, got already plenty of options.
 
40 bucks here, 20 bucks there.. it adds up, too. In the end I could have bought Falcon...
#39
occide
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/26 13:40:52 (permalink)
Just a quick note: I tried the Serum Demo now, so I had a 1:1 comparison with my attempts in Iris 2.
 
My personal opinion in regards to the topic:
  • Iris pads sound a notch better than Serum
  • Serum got some great FX like Delay and Reverb, but if you listen to the dry signal Serum still put on pants one leg at a time like most other synths
  • Even with the custom wavetables option and the point that Serum has become a defacto-standard with loads of free and commercial patches available I think $189 is too much for Serum. It clearly has dated a bit (yeah I know, the Demo is not the most recent version, but I also watched the videos.) For me personally around $120 would be a fair price.
If you want to make ambient like me you can easily go with Iris and couple of samples, you won't miss out on anything in comparison to Serum. Still if you don't care that much about the price Serum will be a great synth for ambient, standalone or side-by-side with Iris 2 (or other synths).
#40
Jeff Evans
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/26 15:07:38 (permalink)
Serum is one powerful instrument. Look at the first minute or so after the intro to this video.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYhnSuuVqBE
 
Listen to how he sweeps the wavetable.  That effect alone for me would be worth the price of admission.  Not sure Iris2 can sweep wavetables like that under your control the same way.  They are very different.  They do different things.
 
Synthmaster is an amazing synth and it does cost less. And it is around $120. After some finding around I was able to sweep the wavetable the same way as per Serum.  Synthmaster has some incredible sounds and you can import your own sounds and raw materials too.  Next year it is going to be re designed and seriously upgraded to include many more synth engines.  Getting into it now will make it cheaper later to upgrade.  Synthmaster One is also another new addition to that family and it sounds very nice as well. 
 
Another synth not mentioned yet is Alchemy.  This is one amazing instrument.  Hard now if you don't already own the PC version which I do and it all still works fine.  I have many libraries for it.  Organic pads are one of its specialities. For new owners it is into Logic for you but I believe it is been advanced already.

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#41
occide
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/26 15:22:12 (permalink)
Funny how things go.. this afternoon I've been checking out Synthmaster already, because it supports custom waveforms.
 
I already own SynthmasterCM and now tried the Demo of the real thing, plus watched some videos about SM and SMOne. But honestly none of these I do really like. Seems like the creator had a more technical than creative approach on Synthmaster, at some point realized this by himself and tried to overcome with the creation of SMOne - but wasn't really successful in my eyes. Most videos about SM / SMOne show that, too. E.g. the CMMagazine Video about SMOne barely manages to produce anything but a flat base sound in more than 20 minutes, clueless about what knobs to turn.
Some big names like Armin Van Buren suggest it's a great and powerful tool. If it is, it just takes too much time for a hobbyist like me. 
 
You forgot Tone2 Icarus. But as it almost the same price as Serum, it's pointless again, cause Serum has become a standard. Even if it's as good as Serum it would have to cost significantly less to compensate that. Hard times for being a VSTi Dev I guess.
 
Guess I'm gonna wait for a UVI Falcon sale or get it for next xmas or whatever.
#42
sharke
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/26 19:06:56 (permalink)
Worth noting that Serum is available on a rent-to-own basis - $9.99/month until it's paid off. 

James
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#43
occide
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/26 20:40:27 (permalink)
sharke
Worth noting that Serum is available on a rent-to-own basis - $9.99/month until it's paid off. 




Thanks, but in my case that doesn't change anything. It's not that I couldn't pay the amount, it's more that I don't want to pay that much for Serum. I guess most people around here are more serious about making music than I am. It's a hobby, just for fun and relaxation. (Which btw. I think is the best approach for good results anyway).
#44
abacab
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/26 21:23:34 (permalink)
occide
sharke
Worth noting that Serum is available on a rent-to-own basis - $9.99/month until it's paid off. 




Thanks, but in my case that doesn't change anything. It's not that I couldn't pay the amount, it's more that I don't want to pay that much for Serum. I guess most people around here are more serious about making music than I am. It's a hobby, just for fun and relaxation. (Which btw. I think is the best approach for good results anyway).




You have plenty of tools already.  There is no such thing as the "one" synth.  Learn what you have, take it to the limits, then if you feel you need more you will feel better about spending more money.

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#45
Jeff Evans
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/26 21:47:38 (permalink)
abacab
 
You have plenty of tools already.  There is no such thing as the "one" synth.  Learn what you have, take it to the limits, then if you feel you need more you will feel better about spending more money.

 
This! I got Synthmaster a while back and at first I was a little put off by the learning curve and it is a slightly unusual layout too.  But once I really started working with it then I found it has a very impressive sound.  A deep complex ambient pad type track a la Eno for example could easily be constructed from nothing but Synthmaster alone.  Especially if you start importing complex oscillator waveforms.   All the elements are right there in front of you. (.....take it to the limits)  You may need several instances of Synthmaster in order to create a complex soundscape like this.
 
I am running an iPad in an Alesis IO Dock as an extra synth and it performs well in that mode.  I have got two Korg synths on there, MS20 and Polysix.   And a third.  Synthmaster for iPad.  I can't believe how fat and powerful Synthmaster actually sounds compared to the other two.  He has designed it for sound.  First and foremost.
 
Synthmaster One is a slightly different beast and some of the sounds are really beautiful.  Good companion to Synthmaster as well.  Sometime in the future I believe Synthmaster will take a major step upward.
 
I bought a great video from Groove 3 on Synthmaster.  After watching that a few times it really changed things for me.  It explains every single parameter.  Some real help like this speeds things up and opens things up big time.
 
It is not only modern synths that can do this.  I have got a flagship EMU Emulator hardware synth that I have picked up some amazing sounds for recently.  Third party patches of deep complex and ambient sounding pads.  The first patch has all the elements in it but the rest of the patches contain just one single element of the total picture.  Which can be transposed over the entire octave range and all manner of editing and sound shaping and effects can be applied to each element alone.  Then you can put it into multitimbral mode and sequence 16 elements of the ambient soundscape at once.  There is no limit to something like this and the possibilities are infinite. 
 

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#46
abacab
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/26 22:59:31 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
 
This! I got Synthmaster a while back and at first I was a little put off by the learning curve and it is a slightly unusual layout too.  But once I really started working with it then I found it has a very impressive sound.  A deep complex ambient pad type track a la Eno for example could easily be constructed from nothing but Synthmaster alone.  Especially if you start importing complex oscillator waveforms.   All the elements are right there in front of you. (.....take it to the limits)  You may need several instances of Synthmaster in order to create a complex soundscape like this.




I grabbed the Synthmaster expansion sound packs by Nori Ubukata "Historic Synth Giants Volume 1-4" recently when they were on sale.  Wow!!!  Listen to the demos on Soundcloud and you'll see what I mean!  I have new respect for the capabilities of Synthmaster.  And the version 3 update due early next year should be very interesting!
 
Expansions:
http://www.synthmaster.com/purchase.aspx
 
Nori was one of the first official sound designers for Yamaha DX series. Later on, he worked for Yamaha and Korg as sound designer and also as developing adviser. He was involved in almost all of DX,SY and TG series, VL-1 and VP1 of Yamaha , Korg's T-series, O1/W, Wavestation and Prophecy. He published several optional voice programs for DX and SY series, Korg M1 and Ensoniq VFX/SD. In 2005, he started designing presets for Arturia products, being an official in-house sound designer and demo music composer. At the beginning of 2012, he became a freelance sound designer and musician. He mainly plays theremin with CV driven analog synthesizers and has released 3 albums so far in Japan.
 


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#47
Jeff Evans
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/26 23:26:06 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby abacab 2017/05/26 23:47:31
I forgot to mention expansion packs for Synthmaster.  I have quite a few myself including the Nori patches.  I used to own a SY77/TG77 synth and that was a beast to program.  Some of the best and most beautiful complex ambient sounds I have heard in a while.  FM7/8 also not bad either.  The unison mode sounds very similar to the original TX816.  I have got a massive DX library and there are many amazing ambient patches and soundscape type sounds in that library too. I was reading about Montage 7 and they have greatly expanded the FM engine inside Montage now.  Sounds awesome apparently.  It has thew biggest and most complex FM engine now. 

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#48
Magic Russ
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/27 04:37:36 (permalink)
I'll throw Rhino 2 and Crystal into the mix.  
 
Rhino supports 6 operator FM Synthesis, reads DX7 and similar sysex.  The oscillators can be from a wide variety of waveforms or wavetables, or from a simple additive generator.
 
Crystal is a classic freebie that has oscillators that can be granulated or FM modulated, plus can import samples, and has a unique FX section.
#49
abacab
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/29 16:39:55 (permalink)
I have been playing around with the free Fracture and Hysteresis from Glitch Machines, with some interesting results just putting some rhythmic material through them. 
 
Starting with a basic dry stereo drum pattern from an entire kit in Addictive Drums.  It can be morphed until it no longer sounds like drums at all, and the rhythmic patterns seem to create some interesting ambient motion.  It might also be fun to break the kit down to individual audio outputs and try processing each piece with a different preset that works differently on each timbre and pitch.
 
Also, the free (until June 8th) Diffuse from Surreal Machines can also add some additional delay and reverb to open up the space a bit more. 

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#50
abacab
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/29 16:54:31 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
Oh and for occide here is another one. Native Instruments Prism. Now there is a serious synth with some very serious pads and very organic ones. This synth cam move its harmonics by modulation both horizontally on the spectrum as well as vertically of course. You won't find anything that sounds like it.




Just thought I should mention that the free NI REAKTOR 6 PLAYER comes with the free "MIKRO PRISM" with 70 presets.
 
Also included is "BLOCKS WIRED".
 
https://www.native-instru...nths/reaktor-6-player/
 
Worth checking out.  There are some good source sounds in here for use with additional processing! 

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#51
Jeff Evans
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/30 19:59:09 (permalink)
I think the ultimate organic pad machine has just been created. It is called 'Thrill'
 
Check it out here:
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP_Jbs0i49Q
 
Now this is what I call serious. Having dynamic and full live performance control is the way to go here.
Try recording all the audio demos and then drop those into Iris 2 or Granite. You will be amazed.
But this does look good. Pricey though. The cost off a full DAW alone. 
 
https://www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/cinematic/thrill/
 
Our cost is $435 AU and I guess if you are fairly serious about using something like this then and even making money from it then it is a good investment.  

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#52
abacab
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/30 20:43:05 (permalink)
At least Thrill can run in Kontakt 5 Player!

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#53
Jeff Evans
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/30 21:23:34 (permalink)
abacab
At least Thrill can run in Kontakt 5 Player!

 
Yes and I am glad of that. I think with the other half of many virtual instruments that do need the full version of Kontakt, is a bit of a shame.  A huge outlay just to be able to use some other virtual instruments.  But the Kontakt player does work for many things though.  Make sure you update it to the latest update.
 
But the Thrill concept looks interesting. The whole X/Y pad thing is very cool. I have got an iPad connected to my studio via an Alesis IO Dock and it is easy to setup large X/Y pads or even multiple ones and send that data into the sequencer.  Which is very cool for this type of thing.  
 

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#54
occide
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/31 08:04:35 (permalink)
Well in the end I couldn't resist anymore and bought Falcon. Now I hate myself cause I spent over 500€ for plugins this month alone.
 
What can I say, is Falcon the tool I expected it to be? Yes and no. First of all I'm delighted that it's a great sampler. I thought sampling would be more of a rudimentary feature, but it's not. So I can cross off buying another sampler.
 
Compared to Serum I'm missing a few things. Still you cannot really compare Falcon to Serum, Falcon is just another league of an instrument.
 
What I miss most is the possibility to combine certain techniques, like running a wavetable synth through granular. That doesn't work, I kinda expected it would. You can have wavetable, granular, samples and whatnot in parallel as many as you want however.
 
The noise oscillator is a bit disappointing cause it can't use custom samples. On the other hand you can substitute that just with a regular sample patch easily.
 
Biggest surprise was the plug oscillator, what a powerful tool, omg!! (<- I usually don't write omg!!11)
 
So I was wrong before, Falcon definitely is worth it's money, the depth of this monster didn't show to me before. I'd never want to miss it again. And their commercial library, like what? Synth Anthology 2, World Music, ... dude. Some say Falcon doesn't come with enough Factory presets. By default it does come with about 300 presets that sound great and a voucher for other libraries. So you have to be willing to invest more money if you want more patches, I am not atm, but it's certainly justified to charge money for those libs.
 
In conclusion: You want organic, natural pads? Get a third job. :|
#55
Jeff Evans
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Re: Technique for "organic" pads? 2017/05/31 08:41:44 (permalink)
Thrill is about as organic as you can get.  It seems to move between very unusual orchestral sounds and electronic textures.  Listening to it though it seems to be very natural and organic most of the time.  Not cheap either.  But very different from any of the synths mentioned here so far.
 
I have produced many very organic sounding ambient textures over the years.  You need to steer away from the more conventional synth type oscillator waveforms because they will always sound like that.  Samplers are good because you can record very real and organic sounds and manipulate them with amazing dexterity.  Granite transforms very natural sounds into amazing organic sounding pads.  In a snap.  The Yamaha SY77 was cool because it was an all FM machine but the sample part of the ROM could be substituted for the oscillators in the DX algorithm.  Thus the sounds changed and became very organic and real sounding.  Nothing has emulated the SY77 yet either which is sort of interesting.  But the Yamaha Montage may be able to do it though. They have put those features back in.
 
Another option might be a synth that does resynthesis.  Something that analyses an organic type sound and re synthesises it to great accuracy. e.g. an additive synth.  Then you go in an edit the synth part further.  Moving it away from that sound again into another direction.  I have got a hardware Kawai K5000 which is an additive beast.  I cannot believe how organic it can sound too for such an electronic instrument.  I have a box connected to it which allows me to tweak 16 of the most important parameters.  Talk about shifting sounds away from one place to another.
 
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2017/05/31 18:37:09

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