Helpful ReplyThe Cakewalk Sonar Solution

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Eric Mestre
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2017/12/11 15:10:08 (permalink)

The Cakewalk Sonar Solution

It just occurred to me that the solution to the Cakewalk Sonar situation would be to have
Band in a Box purchase the software from Gibson.
 
BIAB had been highly successful since the DOS days and knows music software.
They have continued to grow and built excellent products.
They have excellent programmers and know the business inside and out.
They are a stable company.
Solution found!
#1
Cactus Music
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/11 16:54:50 (permalink)
How much would you be willing to pay for very old code that is riddled with bugs. We are all so used to Sonars bugs that we invent work arounds and after a while we forget they are there. 
No one will want Sonar's old code. Much easier to hire the old employees and write your own. 

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#2
35mm
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/11 17:53:53 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby fresh101 2017/12/11 22:08:31
Cactus Music
How much would you be willing to pay for very old code that is riddled with bugs. We are all so used to Sonars bugs that we invent work arounds and after a while we forget they are there. 
No one will want Sonar's old code. Much easier to hire the old employees and write your own. 


That's not exactly right. Bugs are a part of any code. The codebase of Sonar is huge. There will most likely be patents on some parts of the code. To code a robust, fully featured DAW from scratch would take a very long time - look at Studio One for example. Its feature set is comparably light because it's only been in development for 11 years as opposed to 30 years for Sonar. If I were a software company looking to create a new DAW I would spend good money purchasing Sonar's code, even if it's just to take the good bits out and implement them rather than reinventing the wheel at every step. This is why, with the recent news that Microsoft is developing a DAW for Windows to compete with Apple's Logic Pro, I suspect that MS approached Gibbons with an irresistible offer for the code only, so they can take it in-house, leaving Cakewalk to be shut down. Even with the resources of MS, developing a DAW from scratch to compete with Apple's Logic would take many years. It would be far quicker, more efficient and cost-effective to take an existing, established, tried and tested, industry-leading, Windows only DAW off the hands of a struggling company (before that company collapses) and use that existing code in their product. Microsoft was working very closely with Cakewalk in recent times, maybe grooming them in preparation for a Sonar takeover.

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tenfoot
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/11 18:28:08 (permalink)
35mm
Cactus Music
How much would you be willing to pay for very old code that is riddled with bugs. We are all so used to Sonars bugs that we invent work arounds and after a while we forget they are there. 
No one will want Sonar's old code. Much easier to hire the old employees and write your own. 


That's not exactly right. 




I think Johnny is probably much closer to the truth than speculating microsoft want to acquire the code from Gibson. The cost of that 30year development by many different coders is that there are layers of outdated code that may well have not been touched in decades. That is why the bakers have not fixed very obvious long term bugs. The dependencies would be mind boggling so It would simply break more than it would fix. Also, now that I have something to compare it to, Sonar is slow. Dont get me wrong - I still love it and resisted change for 25 years, but Johnny's right. If windows were looking to take over a DAW and include it for general distribution, they need it to be simpler and faster.
 
At least that's my wild speculative take on this unfortunate situation.

Bruce.
 
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THambrecht
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/11 18:30:44 (permalink)
Unfortunately I don't believe that Microsoft will buy a DAW.
In the last years Microsoft had also Frontpage or Expression Web - and Microsoft let the web development software die. And I read from a lot of people that Apple has done very little development with Logic.

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Funkfingers
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/11 18:36:01 (permalink)
Thats why Sonar will rise again. No one can kill a software this good.
No one is stupid enough to do it.
It will return. Question is under whoms flag. Gibson? Yamaha? Microsoft? Someone new?
Its just a question of time. It will happen.
Its like desolving a band and then reforming it some time later on. With some of its old members gone and new ones to take their place. Or maybe do it as a trio insted of a quintet.
A good software is allways a good software.
It will rise again.

My name is Hans but I'm still Funkfingers after all these years.
#6
deswind
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/11 18:44:12 (permalink)
Would be an interesting lawsuit -  Gibson owes money for alleged false advertising - as compensation - provides the code to another company.
 
I see that California has taken the lead on some class actions through their DOJ - maybe someone in California can contact the California Attorney General's Office.
 
I wonder how many users are in California?  I would think quite a few.
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karhide
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/11 19:00:58 (permalink)
THambrecht
Unfortunately I don't believe that Microsoft will buy a DAW.
In the last years Microsoft had also Frontpage or Expression Web - and Microsoft let the web development software die. And I read from a lot of people that Apple has done very little development with Logic.




 
That is because Microsoft mainly push Visual Studio for web and desktop development and you can do lots with the free Community version.  

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PhilW
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/11 19:03:13 (permalink)
A load of code (several million lines?) is no good without the people who know how it works, how to install it, together with the infrastructure and support. Once that existing expertise has scattered it's all over.  The only viable solution could be for the developers to buy it and continue it (Gibson and Heritage, if you like) but I doubt there is a business case for a DAW that might have a loyal following but a poor market share. 
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Brian Walton
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/11 20:05:32 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jyoung60 2017/12/11 20:09:55
While BIAB has been around for a while, you need a company that is actually bigger than Cakewalk to buy Cakewalk.
 
Look at BIAB, the web site they have is still stuck in the 90s.  
#10
danevaz
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/11 20:12:29 (permalink)
BIAB has its own core set of bugs, non-functioning features, and outdated/stale code.  Not a good match.
#11
mudgel
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/11 21:46:08 (permalink)
Too much damage done to the Cakewalk brand since dev stopped on Nov 17. Add to that whatever issues lead to it being shut down in the first place. I don’t thnk anyone in their right mind would buy it. Putting aside any sentimental notions regarding Sonar it’s just not a viable business proposition any more. Let’s face we don’t really know what has been going on inside Cakewalk. Our best guess is just that; a guess. Wish it was otherwise, but it is over for Cakewalk.

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chuckebaby
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/11 22:30:37 (permalink)
Who in their right mind would buy a company that owes 1000's of users life time updates ?
That is why I believe Sonar will not be purchased and revised.
 
They kicked themselves in the cans by offering LTU. It basically gave them no hope for a resale.
I can believe I thought it was a good idea at the time.

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#13
anydmusic
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/11 22:51:09 (permalink)
Eric Mestre
It just occurred to me that the solution to the Cakewalk Sonar situation would be to have
Band in a Box purchase the software from Gibson.
 
BIAB had been highly successful since the DOS days and knows music software.
They have continued to grow and built excellent products.
They have excellent programmers and know the business inside and out.
They are a stable company.
Solution found!


PG Music already have a DAW plus a hybrid of BIAB and a DAW.

BIAB is successful but I don't think the others are RealBand is bundled with BIAB and Power Tracks is still on the web site but does not get much attention.

I think that PG Music will keep focusing on what made them famous and what they are good at, BIAB. Rescuing Sonar would be high risk for them so I doubt that they would seriously consider it.

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kitekrazy1
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/11 22:57:14 (permalink)
chuckebaby
Who in their right mind would buy a company that owes 1000's of users life time updates ?
That is why I believe Sonar will not be purchased and revised.
 
They kicked themselves in the cans by offering LTU. It basically gave them no hope for a resale.
I can believe I thought it was a good idea at the time.




 
 I think it being labeled as a subscription model hurt it more.  Most high end software like Sequoia, Avid Media Composer are subscription based along with Pro Tools has the industry standard label attached to it.
 
 Cakewalk was a large company and could be revived my a small group.  We have no idea how much the code is worth.  Gary Garritan bought the Gigastudio code from Tascam which he has never used.  I assume he is probably not a millionaire either. 

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#15
marled
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/11 23:11:54 (permalink)
I have a lot of years of professional experience in coding and I know very well what it means to take over an old code made by others. You come very soon to the point that it is faster to write new code than to change the old one. But for that you really have to be able to understand the current code functionality.
 
On the other hand if I look at the versions and changes of Sonar in the last couple of years, I suppose that they have already replaced a lot of the old code. I doubt that otherwise it had been possible to have such a stable Sonar X3. I looked at a lot of other DAW's too and I found that Sonar is quite stable and fast compared to them (a couple of forum comments from users of other DAWs confirmed that!). Also the design of Sonar is in some areas much more straightforward compared to competitors.
 
I think the reason that Cakewalk failed was mostly a management failure. I have seen such problems in my career too, that good software died just because of wrong decisions and monkey business in the top.
 
The only aspects of Sonar itself that were a little bit of a problem are that it is more complex than others (caused by more versatility) and it takes a lot of know-how to use it efficiently. So it was crucial to support a simplified usage for beginners with a lot of help and tutorials. And it was visible that Cakewalk had understood that in the last year, but this was too late. Another point that was visible from outside was the fact that they dissipated their energies in too many areas, instead of finishing one thing after the other. They wasted a lot of energy in collaboration with other companies (plugins, hardware, sample libraries, ...). They tried to satisfy all kind of users at the same time (musicians, studios, composers, hobbyists, rock music production, elektro dance music production, ...), this was too much!
#16
35mm
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/11 23:33:46 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bapu 2017/12/12 15:02:55
PhilW
A load of code (several million lines?) is no good without the people who know how it works, how to install it, together with the infrastructure and support. Once that existing expertise has scattered it's all over.  The only viable solution could be for the developers to buy it and continue it (Gibson and Heritage, if you like) but I doubt there is a business case for a DAW that might have a loyal following but a poor market share. 


Perhaps you don't know much about programming? Code is modular. Sonar will be built on a framework with classes that interact with the framework and functions within those classes. Cakewalk devs come and go and a new dev fluent in C++ and skilled in DSP starting at Cake would soon get to grips with how it all fits together and would be able to get on and start coding in no time. Also, developers leave comments within their code to explain it to the next guy who has to work on it.
 
The framework would have been updated frequently. Many of the classes would have been updated when required. The old legacy code would be stuff that just works and may have some low priority bugs, but if it ain't broke why fix it?
 
So in short, if a company wanted to produce a DAW and could get their hands on an existing one, they could build a new framework and hook some of the old classes into it with little effort, saving themselves a whole lot of time and expense. Sonar will already contain functions and entire classes that the devs will have grabbed from open sources and pasted in there. That's how it works. Programmers always try not to repeat anything, so if something already exists and they can get hold of it, they do.
 
So it is not true that Sonar's code is worthless to anyone else or that only the bakers could possibly decipher it. It's not so far-fetched at all that someone would buy the codebase and for quite a lot of dosh too. We may never know because even if a lot of that code ended up in another DAW you probably wouldn't have any idea that you were using a DAW that had lots of Sonar code in it. It wouldn't be called Sonar and it wouldn't look anything like Sonar.

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#17
LOSTinSWIRL
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/11 23:42:34 (permalink)
chuckebaby
Who in their right mind would buy a company that owes 1000's of users life time updates ?
That is why I believe Sonar will not be purchased and revised.
 
They kicked themselves in the cans by offering LTU. It basically gave them no hope for a resale.
I can believe I thought it was a good idea at the time.



I agree with you on this 100%. Nobody in there right mind would do this. I think it is done. I really hate the thought of learning a new DAW but I think it is in my near future. Also if there was a buyer we would have heard about it before now.  I was in a company that was bought out and was told straight up that we all had jobs. So people would not jump ship like they are doing with Cakewalk. My two cents worth. 
 
PS I also fell into the LTU offer.
#18
Ionian
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/12 00:08:31 (permalink)
PG Music has been successful because they haven't messed with what they're known for.  Their program has largely stayed the same, just with increased functionality.  They don't do anything to anger the user base (A Cakewalk specialty), and they just keep improving and working on the programs they've developed and coded.  There is absolutely no advantage to taking on someone else's problem.  It'd be a strain on their manpower and finances.  

They already have their own daw, sort of, and their own look.  

Sonar has long standing bugs that are most likely unfixable.  There's a reason the bakers refused to address any of them, even in posts.  They don't want to be pushed into a position where they had to admit they can't fix what they broke. 

Anyone smart enough to keep a company alive for as long as PG music has been, is smart enough to read between the lines that Sonar's code is compromised.  They'd be buying a lemon.

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bapu
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/12 01:48:04 (permalink)
This thread has so many "the only" solutions in it.
 
It's like the viability of Cakewalk has become the replacement debate for religion.
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sharke
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/12 03:48:08 (permalink)
Brian Walton
While BIAB has been around for a while, you need a company that is actually bigger than Cakewalk to buy Cakewalk.
 
Look at BIAB, the web site they have is still stuck in the 90s.  




LOL that's why I've never really investigated BIAB. I can't get past that website. BIAB? More like BYOB. 

James
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#21
bapu
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/12 04:03:00 (permalink)
I wonder if sharke won't date ladies with beehive hairdos either.
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sharke
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/12 04:08:14 (permalink)
As for Microsoft buying Sonar, I can't help but reference the job posting on KVR that led to this whole rumor of MS building a DAW in the first place. 
 
        "If you want to be a part of the future of music creation in multiple dimensions....."
 
Do you really think a buggy, 30 year old program is likely to be part of that vision? I mean realistically. 
 
I wonder what they mean by "multiple dimensions"? Virtual reality? And does this really suggest a DAW? Maybe they're planning on developing some kind of touch based controllers or something. Or perhaps they're looking to develop a very simple music making program that would enable musically inexperienced people to put together tunes. Maybe it's a Band In A Box style app. Who knows? 
 
 

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sharke
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/12 04:08:30 (permalink)
bapu
I wonder if sharke won't date ladies with beehive hairdos either.




I'm allergic to bees 

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bapu
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/12 04:19:24 (permalink)
BIAB gets a bad rap because of how it looks. But if you step up to Real Tracks many times you will be surprised at what you can get. Think of it as a jamstix for song writers. IOW more than just a drummer.
 
Herb Hartly (guitarhacker) uses it almost exclusively for all backing tracks adding his live guitar playing and his or others singing. He has produced some stellar tracks with it IMO.
 
I produced a Forum Monkeys track (a take on She's a Lady) solely using BIAB for the instruments and after Beepster (who sang it) found out what I used he was to put mildly VERY surprised. I even used a guitar solo generated by BIAB in another song where Danny Danzi said, "Why do you want to replace that? It's perfect for the song."
 
To me it's a just another tool in the band's tool box (see what I did there) along side of music construction kits and flat out loops.
 
Not trying make any converts here but again BIAB gets a bad rap by those who are turned off by the GUI or the website (which by the have no direct affect on it's output, IMO). Many say the Jamstx GUI is crap and cartoonish but they swear by what it can do.
 
#25
sharke
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/12 04:35:39 (permalink)
bapu
 Many say the Jamstx GUI is crap and cartoonish but they swear by what it can do.
 

 
I certainly swear by what it does sometimes! 

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#26
anydmusic
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/12 09:00:17 (permalink)
sharke
Brian Walton
While BIAB has been around for a while, you need a company that is actually bigger than Cakewalk to buy Cakewalk.
 
Look at BIAB, the web site they have is still stuck in the 90s.  




LOL that's why I've never really investigated BIAB. I can't get past that website. BIAB? More like BYOB. 




But being stuck in the 90s for both the UI and the Web Site works for them. As one who complains about the UI I have to say that it lets you get the job done and they do make small changes with each release. Definitely evolution and not revolution which means that even if you skip a few years the program still works as you expect.

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#27
35mm
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/12 10:50:06 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bapu 2017/12/12 15:02:47
Everyone has an opinion or a theory and that makes for great discussion. But all the people saying "who would want to buy old, buggy software?" clearly don't understand software development. See my previous comment for a more in-depth explanation, but in short, using the words 'old' and 'buggy' together doesn't make sense. Legacy code in software is still in there because it still works great and can't be improved upon. It's already had its bugs fixed years ago. Bugs get introduced when new code is added. It makes more sense to use the words 'new' and 'buggy' together! All software has bugs. That's unavoidable. Bug fixes are prioritized by their importance - how many users are affected by this bug? and of course commercial ramifications - is this known bug affecting sales?
 
Other people are adding to the myths by saying things like, "You would have to take on the Cakewalk dev team to be able to do anything with the software as only they know the code" That's not how software development works. The code doesn't exist in peoples heads. It's written down and to a programmer, it reads like a book. Providing you have the skills, you could jump right into that code and get working on it straight away, which is what new Cakewalk bakers would have had to do.
 
Like it or not Sonar's source code has a hell of a lot of value locked up in it - 30 years of developmental value. To make sense of that you have to understand that the software isn't the singular program that you run on your computer. It is thousands of modules, each of which can be taken out, rearranged, adapted and put into something else. If you were a software company tasked with building a DAW from scratch on par with Sonar, it would take you 30 years to come up with something that was 30 years out of date. The solution would be to start off with something that has already had most of the hard work done on it, strip out the modules, adapt them, add to them and compile it into a new product with a different name, new look, and different branding.
 
This whole thread is completely speculative but if you are going to talk about the software aspect of it, please make sure you know what you are actually talking about! 

Splat, Win 10 64bit and all sorts of musical odds and sods collected over the years, but still missing a lot of my old analogue stuff I sold off years ago.
#28
jbow
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/12 14:21:27 (permalink)
I think the best hope for Sonar is evolution, some of the bakers (the right ones) getting together and making a new DAW based on the better, newer parts of Sonar. I bet they could pull that off and I think it’s been done before but I can’t name the DAW. I do think if they could do it that it would be the best. They need a venture capitalist, and maybe something is going on that can’t be talked about yet. The future is bright no matter what... unless people who just use samples win out... IMO.
J

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mics. 
I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
#29
bapu
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Re: The Cakewalk Sonar Solution 2017/12/12 15:06:53 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Mesh 2017/12/12 15:13:53
As a software developer who has even migrated complex systems from one nearly obsolete/boutique language to another more popular mainstream language, everything 35mm says is on point in posts 17 and 28 above.
 
This is one of the rare instances where the Helpfuls I gave were meant to be just that. Helpfuls for those that read it. These are not alt-facts they are straight facts.
#30
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