Ham N Egz
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The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
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Splat
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/02/05 19:59:27
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☄ Helpfulby Shambler 2014/02/08 06:23:39
Fair enough, most people who originally bought the album are deaf by now.
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cuitlahac
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/02/05 20:00:30
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This is interesting......are you using the Tischmeyer scale here for these measurements?
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GIM Productions
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/02/06 08:06:30
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emwhy
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/02/06 09:22:51
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I read the article, hopefully this will cure things, but as long as you have radio people and A&R people from record companies involved in the process, it's going to take a while longer for things to calm down. I worked with a radio programmer for years who used to tell record reps if he had to turn up the volume on new product on his CD player or PC, he wouldn't give it a second listen. That mentality has to be purged at ALL levels before things will finally change.
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Splat
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/02/06 09:46:53
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> A&R people from record companies involved in the process They still exist? Oh hang on there's only about 3 "record" companies now (with money).
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stonehedge
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/02/06 21:16:01
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CakeAlexS Fair enough, most people who originally bought the album are deaf by now.
Actually no we're not. Only the people with iPods listening to these newer versions with inner ears are
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bitman
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/02/06 21:31:23
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Pfft. I don't listen to anything anymore. Except I did have Steely Dan's FM in my head while loading the dishwasher tonight. That was pretty cool.....
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mettelus
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/02/07 00:23:57
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And I like that album too! Good thing I have the original copy, I guess.
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BJN
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/02/07 10:18:59
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It is incredible the loudness keeps on getting louder, even with country music the life is suck right out of it musically. You'd think it would dynamics first.! It is a mentality that has been with us since recording began. The ear brain immediate response still is the louder one is the better one. All I notice is that my PC monitors are mostly on a 3rd and most music vannot be pushed over half way if that before the speakers fart. So it goes back to a third where it is loud and very pressurized sounding. I really don't mind using my volume control for something that isn't pressurized. The pressurized stuff is all through out the industry. No wonder CD sales are going down and most is designed for an ipod playlist completing with the prior and following tune loudnesses. The perceived loudness should be that loudness that doesn't fatigue with re listening. Not all songs are overly pressurised but some genres shouldn't be treated like a heavy metal release. I look foreward to my SOS arriving soon.
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joel77
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/02/07 10:31:42
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CakeAlexS Fair enough, most people who originally bought the album are deaf by now.
Excuse me??!!?? ........ What'd he say?? Actually Alex, not ALL of us. We may be on the verge of senility, but we hear just fine ..... for old folks!! lol
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brconflict
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/02/07 10:44:34
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I was just listening to this album again recently. I have the original 1985 master on Cassette, but I was listening to the first run CD master, which came a few years later, I believe. If you don't hear this album in it's original form, "Why Worry" and "The Man's Too Strong" will not be as real as they were recorded. This was one of the cleanest recorded albums I've ever heard.
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bitflipper
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/02/07 11:23:14
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This particular album (the 1995 remaster) has been one of my standard references for many years. I just checked on Amazon, and you can pick up the original (1985) release there for $1.79 plus shipping. The 2000 version is $24 and the 2005 SACD edition is $40. Read into that what you will.
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mettelus
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/02/07 11:33:45
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Ugh... society has been effectively trained! Or possibly the self-fulfilling prophecy of loud music makes people deaf so they can only listen to loud music? I guess I am of the simple mindset that "Even if you make crap loud, you still only have loud crap." I never got that album on CD. I only have the cassette myself, and I like it "as is."
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Johannes H
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/02/07 12:03:22
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I have the 1985 version of Brothers In Arms on CD. I think in general it sounds good, but I have never liked the drum sound on that album.
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Splat
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/02/07 20:04:34
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Johannes H I have the 1985 version of Brothers In Arms on CD. I think in general it sounds good, but I have never liked the drum sound on that album.
As their drummer got replaced by a session musician for that album, I suspect he thanks you for your comment. He had the last laugh though, the one drum track that was left on the album, which was played by him, was the drum intro to Money for Nothing. I don't think he got a Rolls Royce like Knopfler got out of it (plate was DIRE STRAIGHTS I vaguely remember), I also remember John Ilsley having a particular taste for Whisky (JD?) in the mornings at Air Studios (Oxford Street London not Montserrat, both having wonderful custom Neve consoles).
post edited by CakeAlexS - 2014/02/07 20:33:31
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konradh
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/02/07 21:12:52
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Feb Sound on Sound declares that the loudness wars are over—or at least we have landed at Normandy. Interesting article. I am sure you mastering engineers will already know everything in the article, but it was enlightening for us lowly writers and musicians who also record.
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mudgel
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/02/08 01:41:12
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Wasn't it Bob Katz that SOS were quoting, who said that the loudness wars are over.
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Splat
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/02/08 06:12:19
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☄ Helpfulby bapu 2014/02/08 12:05:33
I think they declaired the music biz over...
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mettelus
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/03/13 07:15:16
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RageoPari
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/03/13 09:46:30
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Splat
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/03/13 11:08:26
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Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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Del
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/03/14 10:35:26
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shawn@trustmedia.tv
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/03/15 04:08:46
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BOOST11 on my old masters cutting of about 10% of the peak waveforms which added about 25% loudness or more and kept 90% of the tracks dynamics...I liked the results for SoundTraxx early tracks re-mastering!
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shawn@trustmedia.tv
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/03/15 04:11:32
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I didn't have the cakewalk AMP 11 64 then... ;)
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shawn@trustmedia.tv
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/03/15 04:55:22
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I will sacrifice 10% of dynamics for a 20% increase in perceived sound level any day...(Usually...) -Shawn
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shawn@trustmedia.tv
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/03/15 10:53:55
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patm300e
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/03/16 10:32:48
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Shawn...Are you saying you would take a 10% degraded signal to get 20% more volume? 10% of the original signal...gone forever?
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bitflipper
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/03/16 11:12:08
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shawn@trustmedia.tv I will sacrifice 10% of dynamics for a 20% increase in perceived sound level any day...(Usually...) - Is this even possible? If your peaks are already at their maximum value, in order to raise the average by 20% wouldn't you also have to reduce the peaks by 20%? That would seem to result in a 20% reduction in the crest factor, which is effectively a measure of your micro-dynamics. Somebody once expressed it this way: which do you want to create, music people want to turn up, or music people want to turn down?
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John
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Re: The LOUDNESS Wars (again)
2014/03/16 12:03:24
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☄ Helpfulby joel77 2014/03/16 14:45:26
This is disturbing to me. I know the trend has been to increase level but many have fought very hard to halt this trend. Its not because these are old geezers and have nothing better to and want to spoil the fun of the young but rather an innate respect for music. What happens when we record music? First keep in mind that though we can do far better in recording music then ever before with even modest gear however we can never record the true sound that the ear hears in a live performance. The recording can't handle the full dynamic range that the ear can hear. What happens is the act of recording will squeeze the dynamics before we even start recording to disk or tape. The mic itself is limited in the range it can handle. One reason we need to set levels each time we record. Pre-amps are also limited in their dynamics range and so on. This means we are already distorting the sound by the simple act of recording it. Add to this that all playback systems have their own limitations in their ability to handle the full range of dynamics. Then we add further reductions in dynamics with compressors and limiters. What the people behind stopping the loudness wars are doing is trying to stop further degradation of the sound and thus music reproduction by pointing out the need to preserve as much of the dynamic range as is possible. Some of it will be gone due to the recording process but we have a choice to not add to this problem by being scrupulous in the minimum use of compression. The first things that goes with compression are transients one of the most important psychoacoustic elements in music. Transients give all sorts of information to the ear. One of the most prominent things is direction. It helps pinpoint the spot where the sound is coming from. Getting rid of transients produces an amorphous wall of sound with no source. Some may say that that point is unimportant in close miced multi-track recording. I maintain its crucial. It gives the mixing engineer a clear tool to help him locate in the stereo field where he wants things to be placed. And it sounds "right" to the listener. Other types of recording in stereo rely on transients for spatial sound location. But there are tons of other things that transients do that contribute to the realistic reproduction of music. Making it "loud" is a a way for untalented mixers to impress the uninformed and ignorant but also annoy those that care about the beauty of music.
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