guitz
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The MIDI drum clips that come with Sonar Essential / How to add fills, transitiions,etc
Something I've wondered for years....when I start writing a song , I always start with a single MIDI drum pattern that is close to what I figure the drums should sound like and at the right tempo....but, when I get further into working the song up, I find it amazingly difficult to add fills that fit, transitions that sound right, clips that change a bit but work with the original...It's like, the basic beat is OK, but trying to shoehorn completely unrelated MIDI drum clips ...or even Cakewalk MIDI clips into the song just doesn't work at all, it's sound forced and clumsy most of the time, because clips in the 'rock' category don't seem to jibe with clips in the hip hop/jazz/blues,etc,etc categories and there aren't enough subtle changes and fills per category....I'm no drummer and don't even know what constitues an 'appropriate' sounding fill/transition etc playingwise, but, I know what sounds 'right' when I hear it...So , what do you suppose is a good solution for this age old dilemma? Is there a gigantic pile of clips with an even bigger gigantic pile of fills for them that you can audition or am I just simply expecting too much using MIDI clips to sound like the performance of an actual drummer in music where the drums vary as much as they do in typical pop and rock? Hire a drummer? :D
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tomixornot
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Re:The MIDI drum clips that come with Sonar Essential / How to add fills, transitiions,etc
2012/06/16 08:38:37
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Mix and match drums patterns can be difficult, as the feel, dynamic, etc.. are different, especially matching different kind of styles and libraries. Try re using the same pattern and add fills to it, using the step sequencer. As you know when a drums sound right, that will be a good starting point to experiment with your own fills. To make it sound more realistic, during the fills, removes the hi hat / snare that happens to be there on the same fill shot. Imagine if you're moving both your arms to play the toms, you will not be able to play the snare / hi hat at the same time (you can still pedal the hi hat). Edit the dynamic of each shot. I don't play drums (except a few basic beats - knowing some will help a lot) and sometimes I'm playing air drums as I program a pattern and imagine I'm drumming it out :) So, avoid going to the direction of getting more clips for mix and match. If you want totally automated drums/fills, you can try Jamstix 3 or Band in a box. I have both and use them from time to time.
post edited by tomixornot - 2012/06/16 10:15:51
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:The MIDI drum clips that come with Sonar Essential / How to add fills, transitiions,etc
2012/06/16 12:42:12
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It's hard work isn't it.
What I find instructive is to import Midi loops/fills etc that have the sort of feel I want and to analyze what's in the drum PRV. It's extremely intensive trying to imagine what the rhythm is like just by looking at what seems like random blobs on the screen, but if you stick with it the rewards are immense!
I use BFD2 which comes with a huge supply of ready rolled loops, so it's never too difficult to find something that's more or less in the right ball park.
I then create a dummy Midi track, drag all the individual loops & fills from BFD's browser onto this track where I can then copy suitable loops onto the main Midi drum track and start editing. A good back loop can then be used over & over again but tweaked ever so slightly different to all the other loops on the track, adding variation and reducing repetitiveness.
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guitz
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Re:The MIDI drum clips that come with Sonar Essential / How to add fills, transitiions,etc
2012/06/17 10:03:26
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Bristol_Jonesey
It's hard work isn't it.
What I find instructive is to import Midi loops/fills etc that have the sort of feel I want and to analyze what's in the drum PRV. It's extremely intensive trying to imagine what the rhythm is like just by looking at what seems like random blobs on the screen, but if you stick with it the rewards are immense!
I use BFD2 which comes with a huge supply of ready rolled loops, so it's never too difficult to find something that's more or less in the right ball park.
I then create a dummy Midi track, drag all the individual loops & fills from BFD's browser onto this track where I can then copy suitable loops onto the main Midi drum track and start editing. A good back loop can then be used over & over again but tweaked ever so slightly different to all the other loops on the track, adding variation and reducing repetitiveness.
I like the dummy track idea..where you can hear them all back to back to back etc...You'd think by now though, what with technology the way it is, a drum program would have come along that can 'analyze' your existing tracks, then you can manually mark off the measures/spots where you want fills/build-ups/build-ups to transitions/transitions/subtle-dramatic variations, etc,etc,etc and the program would then generate them and plot them right into your existing drum track....Maybe something like this IS out there?
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daveny5
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Re:The MIDI drum clips that come with Sonar Essential / How to add fills, transitiions,etc
2012/06/17 11:06:52
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Most audio loops (at least the ones you buy) come as a groups that includes Intro, Fill, Verse, Chorus, Ending. That way you have a selection with the same kit and sound. To add variety, you can chop up some of the fills, for example, you can cut a 4 beat fill down to 2 beats or you can use the Intro as a lead-in to a verse. I think these have a better feel and sound than the MIDI patterns, but those can work also. If you have to create a lot of drum patterns, read some websites on drumming. You don't need to know how to play drums, but you should know when the fills should occur and when to use the snare and crash cymbal to accent parts of the music. When you are running a home studio, you need to know how instruments are played so that you can emulate them with your synths. Otherwise you should hire a drummer. 
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guitz
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Re:The MIDI drum clips that come with Sonar Essential / How to add fills, transitiions,etc
2012/06/17 11:29:21
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daveny5
Most audio loops (at least the ones you buy) come as a groups that includes Intro, Fill, Verse, Chorus, Ending. That way you have a selection with the same kit and sound. To add variety, you can chop up some of the fills, for example, you can cut a 4 beat fill down to 2 beats or you can use the Intro as a lead-in to a verse. I think these have a better feel and sound than the MIDI patterns, but those can work also. If you have to create a lot of drum patterns, read some websites on drumming. You don't need to know how to play drums, but you should know when the fills should occur and when to use the snare and crash cymbal to accent parts of the music. When you are running a home studio, you need to know how instruments are played so that you can emulate them with your synths. Otherwise you should hire a drummer.
I've had audio loops but don't find them flexible enough and/or too tedious to chop up,etc... plus, as long as the samples the MIDI clips are triggering are good quality, they can sound as good as audio clips...
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CJaysMusic
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Re:The MIDI drum clips that come with Sonar Essential / How to add fills, transitiions,etc
2012/06/17 11:31:44
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I like to use one soft synth, like Superior drumeer and then i like to either manually enter each drum hit to create the beat and fills the song needs or i trigger them witha MIDI controller or v-drums. Either way tales allot of time and dedication.
Mixing and matching different loops, created by different drum synths or drum sets is horrible and should be outlawed in some states. The sound sformthose different loops will not match.
find a drum VSTi and go for it!
Cj
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Grem
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Re:The MIDI drum clips that come with Sonar Essential / How to add fills, transitiions,etc
2012/06/17 11:52:42
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Have you tried Groove Monkee midi clips? http://www.groovemonkee.com/en/ They have really good sounding midi loops that you can use. I do pretty much what Bristol does and create a trk using the straight clips. Then when I have the song fleshed out, drag which clip I want to the real drum trk and start editing that clip. And I pretty much do that with each clip. It takes time, but as others have pointed out, it's worth it. Besides, you get faster the more you do it.
Grem
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guitz
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Re:The MIDI drum clips that come with Sonar Essential / How to add fills, transitiions,etc
2012/06/17 12:05:54
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Grem
Have you tried Groove Monkee midi clips? http://www.groovemonkee.com/en/ They have really good sounding midi loops that you can use. I do pretty much what Bristol does and create a trk using the straight clips. Then when I have the song fleshed out, drag which clip I want to the real drum trk and start editing that clip. And I pretty much do that with each clip. It takes time, but as others have pointed out, it's worth it. Besides, you get faster the more you do it.
I think I may have tried those in the past...my memory is that all of them take work that I wish brilliant VSTi or otherwise programmers would come up with to do what I mentioned earlier...a sort of artificial intelligence drum machine lol
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tomixornot
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Re:The MIDI drum clips that come with Sonar Essential / How to add fills, transitiions,etc
2012/06/17 12:17:17
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Jamstix 3 can do that - drag in a midi drums pattern and it will create subtle variations, including fills, at your command.
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guitz
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Re:The MIDI drum clips that come with Sonar Essential / How to add fills, transitiions,etc
2012/06/17 13:12:57
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tomixornot
Jamstix 3 can do that - drag in a midi drums pattern and it will create subtle variations, including fills, at your command.
ok I'm gonna try this
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