jsg
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/01 23:47:33
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cparmerlee
jsg
I put all of my efforts into creating a finished product, the recording, not as a "mockup" (I hate that term it sounds so dismissive) but as an end in itself. This might explain the difference in approach.
What you call a mock-up, I would refer to as a reasonably life-like rendering of the publishable sheet music, which can serve the purpose of a live recording session at a far lower cost. And said realism can also assist the arranger in identifying any defects in the product BEFORE publication and/or before paid musicians see it in the first rehearsal.
If one isn't engaged in that kind of work, then one probably will find my point of view foreign. I get that. But I can assure you that a great many people work exactly as I have described. This is a big enough market that some vendors will address "the bridge" eventually. May or may not be Cakewalk. I like Cakewalk, and have invested a lot of time in learning SONAR, so I selfishly want to see Cakewalk be a leader in this convergence, but it seems that is not in the cards.
This does affect my spending on DAW-related things. Going forward, I will be very careful to spend money only on technologies (effects, instruments and other tools) that I can take with me to another DAW sometime in the future when this convergence path becomes a bit more clear.
Now I understand what you're saying. I've been working in a DAW for so long that I've gotten used to the fact that the convergence, the bridge you're speaking of, isn't happening. But there are new people writing music software, the competition is getting more intense, not less. So, it could be Reaper, or Presonus, or quite likely, Pro Tools, now that Avid owns Sibelius. I hope it is not Pro Tools due to their incompatibility with VSTs and I wish it were going to be Sonar. I'm rooting for Cakewalk, as usual. Sonar was the first 64-bit DAW. Sonar has had many firsts, they've been on the cutting edge of DAW development since their DOS beginnings. As I've pointed out, before computers, a composer would create a score, often in pencil, to vellum, to plates, to publishing. The process of composition, orchestration, arranging and score preparation was separate from the act of creating plates, publishing, distribution, marketing and sales. I know things are changing rapidly and, some of the change is positive, as usual. What's my point? The Internet has turned us all into publishers. No doubt. So, essentially, what a convergence of a DAW with final-quality notation capability will do is turn us all into publishers. Which is happening anyway, so let the race begin. Given the way I like to work, I don't need, or particularly want to be thinking about finalizing the score while I am composing, orchestrating and sequencing, instead I just want to be listening deeply to what I am doing. The score preparation and finalization can come later. Obviously, dynamics are one example of where composers feel frustrated. We just can't put an ff or an mp in the score and have MIDI read and understand it and make the corresponding velocity adjustments (well, Cubase users can) but that's not reason enough for me to switch as I've never found that to be an issue because I learned early on that the event list was the key to all the midi detail. That's where the action is happening in terms of controllers, patches, velocities, exact location relative to the beat and other parameters. I suppose having those dynamics in the score would be OK, but the reality is those marks won't mean much unless the piece is going to a) either be performed, or b) it is meant to be a "self-realized" piece, the MIDI interpretation is an end in itself. It can't be both because of the relative nature of dynamics and the complex interaction between velocities, timbres, sample-sets, controllers 7 and 11, mixing output settings, etc, etc. JG www.jerrygerber.com
post edited by jsg - 2015/07/01 23:56:40
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cparmerlee
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 00:08:53
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jsg
So, it could be Reaper, or Presonus, or quite likely, Pro Tools, now that Avid owns Sibelius. I hope it is not Pro Tools due to their incompatibility with VSTs and I wish it were going to be Sonar. I'm rooting for Cakewalk, as usual. Sonar was the first 64-bit DAW. Sonar has had many firsts, they've been on the cutting edge of DAW development since their DOS beginnings.
Following on Craig A's question about market size, any point solution (Sibelius to ProTools, Notion to StudioOne, ot the Spreadbury project to Cubase) would necessarily limit the market size because each DAW has its fans as each notation product has its fans. It the end result were overwhelmingly fantastic, then some users would convert, but not very many, I believe. That's why I tend to think of integrations that are product-neutral. We have MIDI and MusicXML that are mostly common to all products (with some variations). That is enough for a coarse level of integration that might appeal to many people. To me, the notion of two-way iteration is vital. I want to fine-tune the MIDI in the DAW and add effects, but if I make changes in the notation program, I want that to be recognized without having to re-import everything and repeat all of my previous tweaks. And likewise if I change notes in the DAW, it would be nice for them to be reflected in the notation score, even if the layout isn't immediately perfect. There is already a technology that works in a similar fashion: Rewire. But Rewire is not the answer in this case because Rewire can only send the wave streams from notation program to DAW. It seems to me that a "MIDI Rewire" might be something that could be adopted by multiple products and form the basis for a more powerful integration. I will admit that a lot of this is pie-in-the-sky. But EVERYTHING in the DAW world was once pie-in-the-sky, yet the technology works routinely today in amazing ways none of us would have thought possible 10 years ago.
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Anderton
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 00:59:31
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The good news is there is already MIDI virtual cabling, so it's really up to companies to come up with the applications. However the bad news is I think (I'm not a coder!) that coming up with a universal notation "companion" program would be a pretty daunting task, and most companies would rather create, for example, iOS apps or virtual instruments with a wider potential market. If there was some open source project it might happen assuming enough motivated programmers, or maybe an IRCAM-like institution could get some kind of government grant...but these days, it might be hard to convince taxpayers it's worth doing.
The reality is this. The entire US music software business (recording, virtual instruments, editing, mastering, libraries, etc.) averages around $2 million a month although there is a big spike around the Christmas holidays. Hardware accounts for additional income that keeps companies like Avid, MOTU, Ableton, and PreSonus afloat, but this income doesn't relate to notation programs.
Of those software sales, all notation software falls into the "other" category, which includes educational software, gigging software, etc. and accounts for about 2.5% of that $2MM. So I doubt that all notation and scoring software together accounts for much more than 1% of the music software business, if that. This is why when notation enthusiasts talk about a big potential market, sales figures show otherwise. If some mind-boggling notation program came along, put all the other ones out of business, grabbed all the existing market share, and then doubled it, I doubt it would represent more than about 2% of the business.
I don't guarantee 100% accuracy with these figures, but I've been an industry analyst for some time and they're probably pretty close. I think your best bet is open source (although who would manage it?), someone so rich they can afford to pour money into it and not care (like the guy behind Cockos/Reaper), or a government grant.
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mudgel
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 01:13:46
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I'm staggered how small the U.S. market really is. You said $2million didn't you? Not a typo. Wow!
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Anderton
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 01:27:50
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mudgel
I'm staggered how small the U.S. market really is. You said $2 million didn't you? Not a typo. Wow!
Average per month, not per year, but with a decent-sized spike around the holidays. However there are months when maybe a couple dozen copies of a software package (which most people on this forum probably would think is popular) are sold. It really is a tiny industry. As I pointed out in another thread, a single Whole Foods store makes about $34MM a year - only a few DAW companies in this industry come even close to $20MM a year. However the Pro Tools division of Avid does substantially better than that because so much of its income is derived from hardware. So if someone asks if you want to invest money in a notation program or in Whole Foods...my advice is go with Whole Foods. 
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jsg
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 02:19:17
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cparmerlee
jsg
So, it could be Reaper, or Presonus, or quite likely, Pro Tools, now that Avid owns Sibelius. I hope it is not Pro Tools due to their incompatibility with VSTs and I wish it were going to be Sonar. I'm rooting for Cakewalk, as usual. Sonar was the first 64-bit DAW. Sonar has had many firsts, they've been on the cutting edge of DAW development since their DOS beginnings.
Following on Craig A's question about market size, any point solution (Sibelius to ProTools, Notion to StudioOne, ot the Spreadbury project to Cubase) would necessarily limit the market size because each DAW has its fans as each notation product has its fans. It the end result were overwhelmingly fantastic, then some users would convert, but not very many, I believe.
That's why I tend to think of integrations that are product-neutral. We have MIDI and MusicXML that are mostly common to all products (with some variations). That is enough for a coarse level of integration that might appeal to many people. To me, the notion of two-way iteration is vital. I want to fine-tune the MIDI in the DAW and add effects, but if I make changes in the notation program, I want that to be recognized without having to re-import everything and repeat all of my previous tweaks. And likewise if I change notes in the DAW, it would be nice for them to be reflected in the notation score, even if the layout isn't immediately perfect.
There is already a technology that works in a similar fashion: Rewire. But Rewire is not the answer in this case because Rewire can only send the wave streams from notation program to DAW. It seems to me that a "MIDI Rewire" might be something that could be adopted by multiple products and form the basis for a more powerful integration.
I will admit that a lot of this is pie-in-the-sky. But EVERYTHING in the DAW world was once pie-in-the-sky, yet the technology works routinely today in amazing ways none of us would have thought possible 10 years ago.
I make the score after the MIDI tracks are rendered into a two-track audio wave (I usually don't need stems because the mixing, track EQ, compression, balancing, etc. is done in either MIDI, the console, in VSL Ensemble or in soft synths) but before working on the master recording. I don't have much of that back and forth between the Sonar and Sibelius. Some, but not much.
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mudgel
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 03:10:36
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Anderton
mudgel
I'm staggered how small the U.S. market really is. You said $2 million didn't you? Not a typo. Wow!
Average per month, not per year, but with a decent-sized spike around the holidays.
However there are months when maybe a couple dozen copies of a software package (which most people on this forum probably would think is popular) are sold. It really is a tiny industry. As I pointed out in another thread, a single Whole Foods store makes about $34MM a year - only a few DAW companies in this industry come even close to $20MM a year. However the Pro Tools division of Avid does substantially better than that because so much of its income is derived from hardware.
So if someone asks if you want to invest money in a notation program or in Whole Foods...my advice is go with Whole Foods.
I understand you meant monthly average. I guess I'm always used to everything in the U.S. being measured in billions that I haven't ever given the dollar value a thought. I would speculate that most sales dollars account for upgrades not first time buyers with new purchasers being in the minority. With discounts being industry wide real margins must be very thin if you don't have a partner with deeper pockets, either through your own hardware sales or in the case of Cakewalk being owned by a larger company that can help offset some of the cost of sales.
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mudgel
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 03:18:18
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I was thinking of asking to move this financial state discussion to another thread but I can see the eye opening perspective this kind of information can have to any of us who never give a thought to the real costs involved and how small our little niche of this industry is. Because when you talk music you generally talk of billions generally.
No wonder Greg H could no longer run a one man/small operation and keep up with companies like ProTools with the hardware profits to spread around. I imagine it must have been difficult as he firstly had a partner then finally an owner. Then people wonder why PT is number one. It's always been tied to hardware.
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Elffin
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 03:49:02
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cparmerlee
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 09:03:42
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Anderton
Of those software sales, all notation software falls into the "other" category, which includes educational software, gigging software, etc. and accounts for about 2.5% of that $2MM. So I doubt that all notation and scoring software together accounts for much more than 1% of the music software business, if that. This is why when notation enthusiasts talk about a big potential market, sales figures show otherwise.
This sounds like an EXCELLENT argument for why DAW companies should be looking to EXPAND their user base, rather then putting all their energy toward massaging the egos and/or ears of those who are already in the club. I do understand there are limits to the available resources. But I also see of all the amazing features that have been added to Platinum this year, I will probably only use 1 or 2 of them, ever. And this is also why I look to something like a much smarter import of MIDI and MusicXML which could go a long way toward building a useful "bridge". It wouldn't be as elegant as many of the features we have come to love about the DAWs, but could definitely make the DAW more appealing to people working in the realm of professional-quality notation systems. What I envision is a combination of operations: Smart project setup, which would read a MUsicXML file and create a SONAR project template, creating a midi track and synth for each staff line found in the MusicXML. Smart Project Refresh, which would be the same as the above, but would insert MIDI tracks and synths for any staves added since the last refresh. The above could optionally be smart enough to look at staff groupings and put each group to its own sub-mix bus. For example in an orchestral score: woodwinds, brass, percussion, and strings. Smart MIDI import, which would have several modes: MIDI replace, either by track or for all tracks. This would discard any MIDI information currently in the SONAR project for that instrument (or for all instruments referenced in the score), and bring in a fresh set of MIDI from the notation program. Any tracks added within the DAW (not in the score) would remain untouched, but any MIDI tweaks to the previously imported MIDI would be lost. Any effects chains or fader automation would be preserved. MIDI refresh, which would be a much more granular operation. In this case, the import routine would look for any changes in the MIDI coming from the notation program. If any property of a note (pitch, length, etc) was different from the last import, then the old MIDI would be discarded and replaced with the new MIDI for that note. But if there had been no changes to a note, then the SONAR MIDI would be untouched, preserving any tweaks that had previously been made on the DAW side. If a note had originally been imported from the score and is no longer in the import file, then the note would be removed from the DAW. But any notes added within the DAW would be untouched. For this to be possible, the DAW would need to keep a shadow copy of the notation program's MIDI for each note in order to detect changes. All of the above would be batch processes, as opposed to happening before our eyes in real time. Obviously a real time two-way solution would be much more elegant, but that would require much more development on the notation side, which isn't likely any time soon. As inelegant as the above framework is, this would be a huge time saver, and should work with just about ever major notation program right out of the box.
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cparmerlee
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 09:09:05
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mudgel
I would speculate that most sales dollars account for upgrades not first time buyers with new purchasers being in the minority. With discounts being industry wide real margins must be very thin if you don't have a partner with deeper pockets, either through your own hardware sales or in the case of Cakewalk being owned by a larger company that can help offset some of the cost of sales.
Again, this seems to be an argument why DAW makers should be looking to EXPAND their market rather than putting all their energy toward pleasing the faithful. Clearly a balance is required. Nobody is successful n teh long run by ignoring their base. But a fixation on the base can be just as bad. For example, how many people have moved into the realm of advanced notation with the free MuseScore product? Can some of these be DAW users if there were an easy way to hook their MuseScore work to a DAW?
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Anderton
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 09:59:22
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cparmerlee
Again, this seems to be an argument why DAW makers should be looking to EXPAND their market rather than putting all their energy toward pleasing the faithful. Clearly a balance is required. Nobody is successful n teh long run by ignoring their base. But a fixation on the base can be just as bad.
Not to belabor the point, but a few other stats... Consider that Sibelus, Finale, and Notion were all sold to larger companies (and believe me, if they were raking in the bucks they almost certainly would not have been up for sale). This is a perfect example of the companies that acquired them expanding their market; but Pro Tools notwithstanding (which is likely popular due to many reasons beyond including notation), companies whose products include notation do not have any commanding sales lead compared to programs that don't. According to MI Sales Trak, of the top 10 software brands for May, three offered products with notation and of those, products with notation represented only part of their product mix. I also think we can assume that not all people using those programs use the notation aspect. As to pure scoring programs, as mentioned previously they represent only a tiny fraction of overall sales. From this you can conclude that the universe of people who would switch DAWs or pay extra for extra notation capabilities is sufficiently small that expanding into that market, or even dominating it, would make little difference to the bottom line. Producing a good virtual instrument, or adding features so as not to lose market share to competitors, would likely bring in a lot more income. As Mudgel surmises correctly, not only is income low in the industry, margins are thin. Look at the resistance some people have to paying $149 for a year's worth of substantive updates to SONAR Platinum...based on what it costs to produce those updates and content, $149 is a bargain. So companies cannot afford to throw money at something that won't justify the expenditure, or they risk going out of business or at least having to decimate the staff to reduce payroll. Looking at the sales of notation/scoring programs, and the sales of programs that include notation versus programs that don't, would make any company nervous about making a significant investment into that world. If they can pick up a failing company's IP inexpensively that's one thing, but to start a new initiative from scratch is something else - especially if it's a "universal" one, in which case they might actually be promoting sales for someone else's DAW. ("Well gee, if I'm using Pro Tools mostly because it has notation, and I can get better notation with Avid's 'Notation Companion' program in conjunction with Ableton Live, I'll buy the companion program and ditch Pro Tools in favor of Ableton Live.") I'm not saying this is good, just that economic realities drive choices in this industry to a huge extent because of the thin margins and lack of product diversification. If Apple blows it with Apple Music, they won't care because they a) have so much cash in the bank, and b) they sell a gazillion smart phones. If any program was suddenly to have the most amazing notation capabilities on the planet, I believe the difference it would make to market share would be tiny. Maybe it would be worth it to Pro Tools, which makes a bunch of money and has mature market penetration, to risk a bunch of bucks to increase its market share by (maybe) 1% or 2% but most other companies would be very wary.
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cparmerlee
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 10:20:40
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Anderton
If any program was suddenly to have the most amazing notation capabilities on the planet, I believe the difference it would make to market share would be tiny. Maybe it would be worth it to Pro Tools, which makes a bunch of money and has mature market penetration, to risk a bunch of bucks to increase its market share by (maybe) 1% or 2% but most other companies would be very wary.
I agree there is no business case for improving the internal notation capabilities. But there isn't much of a business case for building the drum replacer either. While these things may thrill the faithful, they just don't expand the market. At best they try to maintain the current slice of a small pie. Can you at least acknowledge that the proposition of making DAWs more seamless with the major notation programs would expand the market rather than please the faithful? We could debate how much that expansion would be and whether that would represent a good business case, but I think it is really important not to lump the two scenarios together. Improving the internal notation is not the same marketing proposition as opening up to a new base us users.
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Anderton
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 10:36:56
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cparmerlee
Anderton
If any program was suddenly to have the most amazing notation capabilities on the planet, I believe the difference it would make to market share would be tiny. Maybe it would be worth it to Pro Tools, which makes a bunch of money and has mature market penetration, to risk a bunch of bucks to increase its market share by (maybe) 1% or 2% but most other companies would be very wary.
I agree there is no business case for improving the internal notation capabilities. But there isn't much of a business case for building the drum replacer either. Actually there is, because Pro Tools includes a Drum Replacer, and programs like Slate's Trigger do very well. Suppose a SONAR owner wants a drum replacer. If the choice is between spending $149 on Slate's Trigger 2 or $149 on upgrading to Platinum and getting a drum replacer and a bunch of other stuff, it's much more likely that $149 would end up in Cakewalk's bottom line instead of Slate's. Drum Replacers are becoming more popular all the time. I don't think it will be long before they become a more or less standard feature in other DAWs. At best they try to maintain the current slice of a small pie. Yes that's true, because they have to maintain that slice. Can you at least acknowledge that the proposition of making DAWs more seamless with the major notation programs would expand the market rather than please the faithful? I disagree that it's "rather than" please the faithful, more like "in addition to pleasing the faithful." It would do both. Improving the internal notation is not the same marketing proposition as opening up to a new base us users.
Agreed 100%. Unfortunately, the point is moot if the addition of new users isn't sufficient to offset the cost of acquiring those new users. This is why an open source option or academic exercise is IMHO the most likely way for the "notation companion" program to happen. I think the best shot for a company producing a program like this would be Make Music, as they did MusicXML, have a commitment to Finale, and are doing reasonably well.
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John T
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 10:54:42
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Drum Replacement is a huge part of modern record production. I don't love that, personally, and I think just playing and recording the drums well in the first place is always more to my taste. But we're in a world now where there are bands who want and expect that to happen on their records. It's not a niche thing at all.
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mudgel
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 11:00:45
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So having come that far it seems logical that Cakewalk's plan of a little often is a major change in the way in which marketing can be attacked along with development and program release. The little often helps in being able to tackle things like Notaion where a little bit can be done nearly every release cycle without robbing too much dev time. The result over the course of a year could be that the list of major requests have been fulfilled.
This monthly cycle is really beginning to show its worth and only after 6 months.
While I see problems discussed on the forum with every cycle it's not the same people. For those with stable well performing systems it seems each release is a little better. More responsive, smoother operation, ie more stable.
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TheMaartian
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 11:31:02
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cparmerlee
This explains my situation perfectly. I feel there is a gigantic disconnect. Calling the Sonar notation "rudimentary" is to be extremely generous. It is what it is, and some people find it useful. That's OK. But it isn't anything like even the most basic music notation capability. I doubt anybody who needs to produce professional-quality sheet music would ever find that acceptable, and surely Cakewalk never intended it to be so.There are good notation products out there. The bridge is the piece that is missing.
Given the intense resistance to that simple proposition here on the forum and given that virtually all the enhancements in Sonar Platinum are nowhere near this "bridge", I think it is fair to say nobody should expect that bridge to come from Cakewalk, and I don't. I do get some other value from Sonar unrelated to notation-based projects, so I will probably continue paying for Platinum until I see at least some hints of bridge construction elsewhere.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I believe the bridge exists, and its name is "Rewire". Consider the following thread from PreSonus' forum: https://forums.presonus.com/viewtopic.php?f=167&t=5661 SONAR supports Rewire. Craig A. says so! http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/Knowledge-Base/2007013043/The-Complete-Guide-to-Using-Rewire-Part-2 Your clients require Finale. Finale does NOT support Rewire. Notion does. Sibelius does. SONAR does. Studio One does. Reaper does. Reason, of course, does. I agree 100% with the comments made in support of the end product and doing whatever works for YOU to get to that end product, so I'm not suggesting that you need to, or should, find some other workflow. But, I believe your gripe should be with Finale and not Cakewalk. Google "Finale" and "Rewire". You'll find kludges (like adding DP to the chain and setting up a three-way routing) to make Finale work in a Rewire setup, but what you'll find mostly are NUMEROUS requests going back 8+ years, from Finale users, for Rewire support. The bridge exists.
post edited by TheMaartian - 2015/07/02 11:38:58
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michael diemer
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 12:21:17
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If it's unlikely that a true synthesis of DAW and notation will emerge due to the economics not being favorable, and the only way for it happen is through open source software, then that is what will happen. The need is there, however small the market, and it will be met somehow. My bet is that in time, Linux will become more user-friendly, and daws for linux will incorporate the free notations like Musescore and Lily Pond (Rosegarden already has LP, but I was not able to get it to work, a common experience). Bitwig works in linux, but has no notation ability. so it could be a good candidate. I think all this is made more likely by the coming of windows 10 (it's name eerily similar to sonar X, no?), which a lot of people are going to see as their limit of tolerance of microsoft's increasing control-grab of their computers. more and more will be exploring linux. Retired old farts like me who have the time will eventually figure out how to make it work. I think that is where we are headed. It is the nature of the technological revolution that is the computer to liberate us from the constrictions of the marketplace (not that I'm a socialist; I'll take capitalism any day over what's happening in the Greece).
michael diemer Intel Quad Core i7-3770 Ivy Bridge 32 GB ram 1TB Western Digital Black X2 Microsoft Windows 7 Pro 64 UR22 interface Bandlab Cakewalk/Sonar 8.5 Studio GPO-EWQLSO Gold-Vienna SP ED-Cinematic Strings 2
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Sidroe
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 12:58:51
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I have said this many times before. I use Notion 5 with Sonar and the results have been remarkably good. The use of ReWire was never really a strong point of mine until I tried it with Sonar. As my use of Notion got better it occured to me that if Notion incorporated audio multitracking, the game would be over as far as notation coupled with audio recording. ReWire almost gets us there. Totally incorporating it in to your DAW would absolutely blow competitors off of the track!
I bought Notion 3 in the Cakewalk store on a sale. I remember thinking that maybe Cake was luring us in to accepting this as their option to get out of the notation business totally. I was shocked when Presonus beat Cake to the punch when they bought Notion and I was also saddened that Cake missed a great opportunity to possibly gain some serious footing in the marketplace if they could blend these two together as one.
I am very happy with ReWire but it would be SO much better if a Notion-type program ran inside Sonar. I think we should all stop and think about how difficult it will be to bring about the change we ask for but I know they are watching these threads very closely. Let's hope that the bakers are getting fired up and the change will be soon.
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skinnybones lampshade
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 13:30:31
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I will add my voice, once again, to the choir begging, beseeching, nagging (you get the gist) the Bakers to continue working on giving us standard musical notation that is:
1. stable
2. easy and quick to use; especially, features easy and intuitive entry of clefs, keys, time signatures, accidentals, bar lines, repeats, endings, notes and rests
3. workmanlike; not fancy, just plain usable
4. able to handle other common notation tasks, like tuplet entry, correctly
Thank you for listening,
LJ
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Elffin
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 13:45:45
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according to one of the Finn brothers. (Sibelius founders) Sibelius has always been profitable.
it was aquired simply for aquiring notation know how and integration with protools. Sibelius' purchase also allowed Avid into educational markets.. something I witnessed first hand here in the uk.
Once integrated wigh Protools, Avid ripped the company to shreds and kept the i.p.
Avid twice refused to sell the company back to the Finn brothers..
Must be making money somewhere!!
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cparmerlee
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 14:37:49
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TheMaartian
Maybe I'm missing something here, but I believe the bridge exists, and its name is "Rewire". Consider the following thread from PreSonus' forum:
If all you want to do is add some effects and maybe automate the track mix, then Rewire will work. But frankly I can do just about as well running the Finale output through Ozone stand-alone and not using the DAW at all. The problem with the notation programs is that, although some of them have evolved to semi-realistic playback, often one needs to change the MIDI itself or add MIDI controllers for just the right pitch bend, fp interpretation, or what have you. In addition, with rewire, your sounds are only as good as the sounds in the notation program. Generally speaking. I expect the DAW to have better sound libraries A "MIDI Rewire" would be an answer, but that is a whole new concept.
post edited by cparmerlee - 2015/07/02 14:44:09
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williamcopper
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/02 15:09:27
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I read bits and pieces of this thread from time to time. What I want, and I do not care how, is FAST FAST FAST and flexible note entry. Both Sibelius and Finale are up to 10 times faster than Sonar in simply entering notes to form a project, "midi events", if you will. Whether it be in staff view or piano roll view or event list, if Sonar would spend some time planning for the expert note-entering-user, it would be great.
I am not a fan of "playing in" the notes, since a midi keyboard simply is not a clarinet or a violin or a tuba or a saxophone, and fixing the problems caused by playing-in takes longer, imo, than even sonar's current lousy note entry options.
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Brett
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/07 05:14:33
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I'm still using Sonar 8 because I refuse to give Cakewalk anymore money until the bugs are fixed. These might not be relevant anymore. Lyrics: Fix the clips related bug that was introduced in Sonar 5 (2005) that corrupts the track and cannot be undone. Support Unicode. This allows any language to be entered as lyrics. eg I use an English computer but often work with Japanese lyrics. Printing: Print only the selected range Print only the a measure range Better layout, the printed score is often difficult to read. This risks being criticised for Finale level software but some effort could be put into better fonts and more regular spacing.
post edited by Brett - 2015/07/07 05:21:05
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jsg
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/08 14:42:12
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To show how I work in regards to notation, here's a symphonic movement I finished yesterday. After composing and sequencing the piece in Sonar Platinum, I export the MIDI File (not XML!) into Sibelius and edit the score and error-check all the parts. This piece is very slow, so best to listen when you have a moment and are not in a hurry. (7 minutes) Comments welcome. http://forum.cakewalk.com...y-Gerber-m3252790.aspx
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Jimbo 88
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/08 17:28:38
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Hey Jerry, This is really great...thanks for sharing it.
Here is the problem I have when I try to do things the way you are. A Sibelius file created by importing midi does not lock up to pictures. So I create 2 Sib files...and then copy and paste all the parts. I do all my composing to picture.
Also once I better see the music in a score I want to edit notes. Since I end up recording live musicians in the same Sonar file I have to make sure I re do the edits in Sonar.
The midi file in Sonar has sloppy note starts and ends to create legato passages and such. Before I import into Sibelius I have to adjust note lengths and start times....that can be painfully tedious.
Please someone find away to interact quicker and easier!!! We are working on computers don't you know.
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jsg
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/08 18:03:12
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Jimbo 88
Hey Jerry, This is really great...thanks for sharing it.
Here is the problem I have when I try to do things the way you are. A Sibelius file created by importing midi does not lock up to pictures. So I create 2 Sib files...and then copy and paste all the parts. I do all my composing to picture.
Also once I better see the music in a score I want to edit notes. Since I end up recording live musicians in the same Sonar file I have to make sure I re do the edits in Sonar.
The midi file in Sonar has sloppy note starts and ends to create legato passages and such. Before I import into Sibelius I have to adjust note lengths and start times....that can be painfully tedious.
Please someone find away to interact quicker and easier!!! We are working on computers don't you know.
Jimbo, There's a certain amount of "tediousness" when sequencing music that is unavoidable, that's congruent with the old saying "The devil's in the details". I don't think the methods I use in my music will necessarily work for others, we each have to find a method to our madness. Since you're scoring to picture (I don't do that anymore, or at least I haven't for a long time) you'll have to find an optimal way to work that won't be the same as mine. I don't understand when you write Sonar has "sloppy note starts". I've never found that to be true. It could be that you've got some notes too far off the beat, or you've got your tracks shifted earlier or later than 0, or your attack times are not matched well to the articulations you're using. Sonar's MIDI timing has always been rock solid for me.
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Jimbo 88
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/08 18:18:26
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jsg
I don't understand when you write Sonar has "sloppy note starts". I've never found that to be true. It could be that you've got some notes too far off the beat, or you've got your tracks shifted earlier or later than 0, or your attack times are not matched well to the articulations you're using. Sonar's MIDI timing has always been rock solid for me.
No, Sonar's midi timing is rock solid for me also, its just that if I'm using a string patch that speaks very slow (Omnispere's Warm Adagio Strings for example), I might be a half a beat ahead. The "sloppy note Starts" is all of my own doing and the easiest issue of all...just "quaintize"
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cparmerlee
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/09 00:16:07
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Following on some of the earlier discussion, here is a rendering of an arrangement I'm working on: https://app.box.com/s/b2w67ju5ijtvrupflw9nfzvjtfb9hr5b It is an old Al Jarreau tune set to a bit of a hiphop groove and some reharmonization for a sextet (tenor-tpt-bone-pno-bass-drums)plus vox. I'm not completely done with it, but It is far enough along to send to the singer so he can familiarize himself with this particular arrangement. I ran this directly out of Finale, and did some slight mastering in Ozone. It is mostly adequate for my purposes, but I really wish it were a lot easier to run this into Sonar. If it were, I would make a couple of refinements: 1) Finale always messes up the rhythm such as at 1:03 and 2:12. Finale just doesn't apply swing correctly to that figure. It would be an easy fix in Sonar. As it is, there is a risk that the musicians will play it the way it sounds in Finale and that would not be cool. 2) Finale does a lousy job of rendering fP-cresc. e.g. 238 and 2:40. I think I could improve this with Sonar. 3) The vamp at 2:52 - 3:15 is more of a cool feel instead of a shuffle, but Finale applies the same swing amount to everything. With Sonar, I could easily back off the swing a little bit in that section. Because this is a very good sextet and it is for our private book, not for publication, I will not go to the trouble of running this through Sonar. But if the importing process were much easier (as described up-thread), I would indeed do that, even for this simple project.
post edited by cparmerlee - 2015/07/09 00:23:49
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DRanck
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Re: The New Notation Fixes Thread!
2015/07/09 20:17:34
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jsg
After composing and sequencing the piece in Sonar Platinum, I export the MIDI File (not XML!) into Sibelius
and edit the score and error-check all the parts.
Thanks for sharing the score Jerry. Really great piece. Why not export as Music XML? Too much to fix in Sibelius?
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