Anderton
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The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
Yes, I'm linking to an article I wrote for Harmony Central. But given that Sonar includes Guitar Rig, the article talks about getting rid of rogue resonances in amp sims, and uses the Sonitus EQ to do it...well, I figured y'all might be interested. (There's also a section about getting rid of rogue resonances in Eleven Rack.) Check out the audio examples and they'll get the point across better than 10,000 words. This technique really works, and eliminates that sort of "plastic" sound you hear in a lot of amp sims. http://www.harmonycentral.com/docs/DOC-1652
post edited by Anderton - 2010/08/28 02:42:58
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Searchfinger
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/28 04:25:42
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wow! thanks a lot for this...  ... i was about to get rid of my XT Pro... this really works.
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DaneStewart
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/28 04:58:50
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Good technique.
My secret weapon: back off on the freekin gain!
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lfm
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/28 05:34:42
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If there are any ampsims that adds the character of a real amp I haven't heard it.
Adding a Damage Control Womanizer with proper tubes inside you start to getting somewhere. It phattens the tone enough, which pure digital stuff have a hard time doing. It remains very thin the stuff I tested anyway.
You may well use both amp sims and cabinet sims after that.
I used Izotope Trash for sims stuff.
But it's all replaced by a Koch Studiotone amp now. It has built in speaker load, and cabinet sim outputs so it may be used in a normal appartment without challenging neighbours. But if neighbours is no problems one may mike it as well mixing two sources for final sound.
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Rain
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/28 12:12:55
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An idea I'm messing w/ these days, considering that each plug has its weaknesses and its strenghts: use busses to combine a couple of them, like we do w/ real amps. (I don't mean like combining amps in a single plug-in, but combining different plug-ins).
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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Chappel
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/28 12:39:13
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Interesting reading. Thanks for posting that. I will certainly be experimenting using those techniques very soon. Maybe I'll be able to dial up a guitar sound that doesn't make me want to switch to banjo. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
post edited by Chappel - 2010/08/28 12:41:47
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ba_midi
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/28 12:51:17
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Anderton
Yes, I'm linking to an article I wrote for Harmony Central. But given that Sonar includes Guitar Rig, the article talks about getting rid of rogue resonances in amp sims, and uses the Sonitus EQ to do it...well, I figured y'all might be interested. (There's also a section about getting rid of rogue resonances in Eleven Rack.)
Check out the audio examples and they'll get the point across better than 10,000 words. This technique really works, and eliminates that sort of "plastic" sound you hear in a lot of amp sims.
http://www.harmonycentral.com/docs/DOC-1652
Hi Craig, Haven't seen you around here for awhile - nice to see you post. 'Resonant' notching is always a great technique/tool. In the article it talks about a "good set of ears" but it doesn't say where we can buy one  But seriously - what is it about working in the digital domain that seems to have certain frequencies that need attention. 7.9K for example, is one I often find myself having to adjust. I know, of course, that there are certain areas ("highs", "mids", "lows", etc.) that will always need attention -- but certain specific frequencies always seem to be the "spot on" ones. I wonder if it's just the nature of digital converters?
post edited by ba_midi - 2010/08/28 12:53:17
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gwp99
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/28 13:39:36
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Thanks Craig for the article - very interesting...but now I am interested in the "11"!
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Anderton
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/28 16:09:36
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gwp99
Thanks Craig for the article - very interesting...but now I am interested in the "11"!
I did a Pro Review on the Avid Eleven Rack over at Harmony Central, and one of the first questions people asked was whether it could be used with Sonar. The answer is yes and no. It works fine as an ASIO interface, and because all the processing is in the hardware, it would be like using (for example) a POD before going into a track - no latency. Eleven Rack also has that nice ability to take it out live with you, or even shove it into a cabinet. However, the editor for it has to load within Pro Tools, and there's no MIDI sys ex dump, so you're out of luck if you want to manage or edit patches within Sonar. Although the VS-20 isn't as well-suited to live performance, it's the same kind of concept as the Eleven Rack, is Sonar-friendly, and costs a whole lot less...you might want to check it out.
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bitflipper
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/28 16:38:33
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Good to see you back in the neighborhood, Craig. Don't be a stranger, eh?
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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johnnyV
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/28 17:11:21
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THE Craig Anderton, Thanks for the post and the zillions of your other articles I've read since the 90's? Was it guitar player mag? Keyboard , or all of them. Always read anything you'd write, What ever happened to Telsco del ray?
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jimkleban
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/28 17:29:12
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So, nothing sounds like a real amp but.......
Nothing sounds worse than a real amp not mic'ed correctly... so....
For software, the best combinations that I have heard is the VANDAL amp sim (for the amp head) and a whole host of IR amp cabinets (the redwire ones are my favorite).
The amplitube effects pedals aren't bad either if you want to chain three VSTs to get your guitar sound (AT3 for FX, VANDAL for the amp and Perfect Space for the cab IR).
But it works quite well.
Jim
PS - Craig, I remember reading your stuff way, way back... always been a fan.
The Lamb Laid Down on MIDI www.lldom.com Studio Cat Custom i7 with Thunderbolt (wonderful system built and configured by our own Jim R) Apollo Duo (via TB) UAD Quad UAD Duo WIN 8.1 x64 with 32 GB Ram 4 SSD for programs and sample libraries Splat (latest version)
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dr.hash 
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/28 17:48:44
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My thing is to use a tube even if it's one 12ax (whatever there called) this is fed then clean into my DAW and I then add compression and then whatever amp sim that I may be using. The compressor is a Dave Gilmour thing it helps give sustain. I love sustain. I’m not being conceited or arrogant, I just want to give away the formula for turning lead into gold. Down with the false Gods. (Audio Schools) Viva la Revolution Sonar Forever, Pro Tools Never Ben B.C.T (Bachelor of Creative Technology) http://www.myspace.com/audiomystics
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gwp99
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/28 20:23:03
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I did a Pro Review on the Avid Eleven Rack over at Harmony Central Anderton
Once again, thanks Craig - what a great review platform it turned out to be at Harmony Central - the folks at Avid have enough fodder to keep them busy with future updates of Eleven for some time. As you detail your results of using the Eleven in Sonar, that answered my last question I had about Eleven. Thanks for the review and thanks for your contributions to the Audio field for all these years. Gerry
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Anderton
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/29 14:30:25
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Thanks for the warm welcome, I post in here when I can but have been very busy lately with some pretty cool projects.
Someone asked about why certain frequencies seem to "stand out" with digital audio. I don't really have an answer. I think that with amp sims, it may relate to sampling rate as I don't hear these artifacts as much when running a sim at 96kHz. I'm not one of those "It has to be 96kHz" kind of people, I don't think it makes a significant difference for audio playback with music and such. But it does seem to make a difference in terms of computation for complex algorithms like distortion.
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Guitarman1
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/29 17:20:20
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craig... is this why when I am recording, my guitar tone sounds dead on, but when I play it back, it sounds dead, or flat sounding. One would think, if you are hearing it as you are recording, the recorded file would sound the same. I have always wondered about this. I know eq and compression come into play, but that would be "finetune" the tone, that I assume you hear when you recorded.
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jimkleban
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/29 18:42:08
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Craig,
Thanks for the testing results... I for one am going to set my amp sims to a high sampling rate in the future (once I figure how to do that).
Jim
The Lamb Laid Down on MIDI www.lldom.com Studio Cat Custom i7 with Thunderbolt (wonderful system built and configured by our own Jim R) Apollo Duo (via TB) UAD Quad UAD Duo WIN 8.1 x64 with 32 GB Ram 4 SSD for programs and sample libraries Splat (latest version)
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stratman70
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/29 19:21:58
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lfm
If there are any ampsims that adds the character of a real amp I haven't heard it.
Adding a Damage Control Womanizer with proper tubes inside you start to getting somewhere. It phattens the tone enough, which pure digital stuff have a hard time doing. It remains very thin the stuff I tested anyway.
You may well use both amp sims and cabinet sims after that.
I used Izotope Trash for sims stuff.
But it's all replaced by a Koch Studiotone amp now. It has built in speaker load, and cabinet sim outputs so it may be used in a normal appartment without challenging neighbours. But if neighbours is no problems one may mike it as well mixing two sources for final sound.
Not an amp sim-It's about 50 tube amps in one-Then you have never heard an Axe FX Ultra- :-)
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stratman70
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/29 19:25:36
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Anderton
gwp99
Thanks Craig for the article - very interesting...but now I am interested in the "11"!
I did a Pro Review on the Avid Eleven Rack over at Harmony Central, and one of the first questions people asked was whether it could be used with Sonar. The answer is yes and no. It works fine as an ASIO interface, and because all the processing is in the hardware, it would be like using (for example) a POD before going into a track - no latency. Eleven Rack also has that nice ability to take it out live with you, or even shove it into a cabinet.
However, the editor for it has to load within Pro Tools, and there's no MIDI sys ex dump, so you're out of luck if you want to manage or edit patches within Sonar. Although the VS-20 isn't as well-suited to live performance, it's the same kind of concept as the Eleven Rack, is Sonar-friendly, and costs a whole lot less...you might want to check it out.
I also have enjoyed your many articles over the years-helped me very much. You might want to check out the Axe FX Ultra by Fractal Audio. I have owned one for 18 moths and will never ever move an amp again. :-)
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bitflipper
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/29 19:50:45
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Craig, did you ever write a review of Cakewalk 1.0 back in the day? In Polyphony, perhaps?
I read such a review, c. 1989 IIRC, that prompted me to buy Cakewalk initially. In my mind I've always credited you with that review, but I don't know if it's a false memory or what.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Chappel
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/29 20:03:51
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Anderton
I did a Pro Review on the Avid Eleven Rack over at Harmony Central, and one of the first questions people asked was whether it could be used with Sonar....
One of the things I love about the Eleven Rack is that it's setup for re-amping. That's a feature I hope other manufacturers will pick up on. Specifically, manufacturers who make things I can afford.
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stratman70
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/29 20:20:19
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Chappel
Anderton
I did a Pro Review on the Avid Eleven Rack over at Harmony Central, and one of the first questions people asked was whether it could be used with Sonar....
One of the things I love about the Eleven Rack is that it's setup for re-amping. That's a feature I hope other manufacturers will pick up on. Specifically, manufacturers who make things I can afford.
Me Too! I like the "idea" behind reamping. That's why I record a dry signal along side my "wet" signal, at the same time. Routing is a wonderful thing. Works well for me :-)
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Anubis
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/30 00:07:20
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dr.hash
My thing is to use a tube, even if it's one 12ax (whatever there called) this is fed then clean into my DAW and I then add compression and then whatever amp sim that I may be using.
That's why I tried this interface, with a built-in 12AX7 tube. You could actually blend in the digital signal with that from the tube. Unfortunately the drivers were horrible and Zoom stopped supporting the device as soon as they made it.  I took it to Sam Ash and swapped it for a nice Saffire Pro 24. 
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lfm
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/30 01:50:46
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stratman70
Not an amp sim-It's about 50 tube amps in one-Then you have never heard an Axe FX Ultra- :-)
Thanks I will check it out.
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Chappel
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/30 01:57:41
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lfm
stratman70
Not an amp sim-It's about 50 tube amps in one-Then you have never heard an Axe FX Ultra- :-)
Thanks I will check it out.
I saw this video of Greg Howe playing one a few months ago. Pretty impressive. Check it out. Greg Howe + Axe FX
post edited by Chappel - 2010/08/30 01:58:43
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Anderton
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/30 02:13:23
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jkleban
Craig,
Thanks for the testing results... I for one am going to set my amp sims to a high sampling rate in the future (once I figure how to do that).
Jim
With Guitar Rig, there's a "high resolution" mode that doubles the internal sampling rate. Twice the CPU hit, but the same advantages as running at double the sampling rate. I believe that's the technique that AmpliTube uses as well for their high-resolution and oversampling modes. You still need to do the notch, though :) You just start off with something better.
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Anderton
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/30 02:16:09
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Chappel
One of the things I love about the Eleven Rack is that it's setup for re-amping. That's a feature I hope other manufacturers will pick up on. Specifically, manufacturers who make things I can afford.
Technically speaking, whenever you use an amp sim plug-in, you're re-amping because you're recording the signal dry, and the plug-in is "re-amping" the dry track. What makes Eleven interesting is the "hardware rack" aspect that works with re-amping. However, as pointed out in the review, I do find having re-amping limited to mono tracks unfortunate...re-amping can work really well with sources like stereo drum tracks.
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Chappel
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/30 03:18:07
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Anderton
Chappel
One of the things I love about the Eleven Rack is that it's setup for re-amping. That's a feature I hope other manufacturers will pick up on. Specifically, manufacturers who make things I can afford.
Technically speaking, whenever you use an amp sim plug-in, you're re-amping because you're recording the signal dry, and the plug-in is "re-amping" the dry track.
Sure, But the only decent amp sim I have is Shred from acmebargig and while it has some nice dirty tones, I have yet to find an amp sim that has CLEAN tones that do much for me, so I generally use the acoustic guitar simulation in my Digitech RP350. Which, while not that great, I still prefer over any clean amp sim tone I've ever heard. Another reason I would prefer using a hardbox amp that is designed for easy re-amping is so I can hear the sound coming from my amp while recording my straight guitar sound. I like the Eleven Rack's design that allows for the monitoring of the processed guitar sound while recording the direct and then the ability to output the direct guitar sound right back through the processor for recording with a different sound. It just seems so elegant a solution compared to how I would have to do the same thing now.
post edited by Chappel - 2010/08/30 03:19:12
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strikinglyhandsome1
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/30 05:04:33
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Chappel
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Re:The Secret to Getting Warm, Organic Amp Sim Sounds
2010/08/30 05:24:15
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