Helpful ReplyThe case against 3rd party software...

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Rain
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2016/05/11 03:27:19 (permalink)

The case against 3rd party software...

So I was working on a song, things were going great and decided that I could maybe use a patch from Sampletank. That was the end of my evening of creativity.
 
For no apparent reason, Sampletank crashed my DAW. It was working fine the last time I'd used it. As for the rest, my DAW is a dedicated machine with only the strict essential on it, and I usually steer clear of updates. I do my best to avoid creating conditions which can cause problems like this.
 
Anyway, as I've learned from experience, ST will crash the host if it can't locate the sample library - which in my case shouldn't really happen because my sample library has not moved since I first installed ST. And yet, it is not the first time that I have to go through the tedious process of re-pointing ST to the directory and watch it take its sweet time to rebuild the library...
 
In order to do that, the solution is usually to open ST in standalone mode. However, that didn't work tonight. It crashed immediately. So I switched to my laptop and verified on IK's website and saw that there was indeed an update.
 
Reluctantly, I enabled internet on my DAW and downloaded the update. Installed it. Launched ST in standalone mode and went to feed the cats while it was rebuilding the library yet again...
 
The good news is that ST no longer crashes Logic. The bad news is that I lost another 10 minutes trying to figure out why I couldn't play it with my MIDI controller. I could "play" it with the mouse and the GUI's keyboard, but that's it. Yet, my controller definitely works, as I could control other instruments.
 
That's when I noticed that whenever I pushed a key on my controller, the channel number 8 on ST's interface blinked. As it turns out, for a reason unknown to me, the newly updated Sampletank suddenly communicates with my controller on channel 8.
 
At that point, I simply gave up troubleshooting. My job is to write music, not to waste my time trying to figure out why some lousy piece of software repeatedly hijack my creativity.

On the other hand, I may just have saved some money - it had been a while since I'd checked IK's web site and I saw some cool things - upgrading Miroslav could have been an option at that point. Not anymore I'm afraid.

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#1
Grem
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Re: The case against 3rd party software... 2016/05/11 03:41:14 (permalink)
Rain I couldn't tell you how many times I have been disrupted during getting an idea down by software BS.
 
Yes, I lost the idea. I mean I knew the chords, but the feel just wasn't what I remembered it was when I was trying to get it down.
 
And like you, I keep my music PC with just what I need to make music. And I have found that this does limit my exposure to these "disruptive/hijacking" episodes.
 
Still, it happens too often.
 

Grem

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bigcatt
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Re: The case against 3rd party software... 2016/05/11 06:48:48 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby TerraSin 2016/05/11 11:31:23
Of course that might be the case against Sampletank rather than third party software. The VST3 version of ST3 bluescreens of death for me regularly. On other hand Pianoteq loads lightning fast for me and is rock solid.
#3
Mesh
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Re: The case against 3rd party software... 2016/05/11 08:33:36 (permalink)
Larry?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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bitflipper
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Re: The case against 3rd party software... 2016/05/11 09:26:12 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Rain 2016/05/12 22:01:07
I'll sub for Larry on this one...
 
ST3 was the biggest letdown of any product I've ever purchased. That came as a surprise, too, because ST2.5 had been an indispensable workhorse for so long. That's where I'd go first if I needed something out of the ordinary such as a hurdy-gurdy or a sitar. They weren't the greatest samples, but the breadth of instruments was impressive. Miroslav was a favorite.
 
But I never got ST2 to work under a 64-bit O/S, so when ST3 came along it was the proverbial "no brainer". Lesson learned: don't put your brain on standby just because a deal sounds good. Don't be the first on your block to buy a new product, wait for reviews from real users.
 
ST3 imports the old libraries, so I thought of it as a paid 64-bit upgrade. But it had far fewer instruments than ST2 had had. Worse, some of the Miroslav instruments did not import, and the ones that did didn't sound like they used to. I have no idea why that might be, but I stopped using Miroslav as a consequence. When I eventually rebuild my DAW, I may not even bother reinstalling it.
 
No complaints about other IKM products, though. The Fairchild 670 is quite good.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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#5
TerraSin
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Re: The case against 3rd party software... 2016/05/11 11:44:06 (permalink)
I think it depends on the music you make. There are pros and cons to everything you do. If you limit yourself to the sounds you have inside the DAW already, you're limiting yourself to, in my opinion, rubbish. I'm of the opinion that companies who make the DAW should stick to making the DAW and the control functionality inside it and leave the sounds and processing to the companies that do it best.
 
That said, sometimes there are stability issues with certain companies. Plus, you have these meanies like @cclarry that constantly post these amazing deals on plugins which, of course, we all buy then spend hours of time going through them and learning them which kills all productivity. ;)
 
If you mainly record live instruments, it's not as big an issue but myself... a lot of what I do is sampled and I want the best quality I can find.
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msorrels
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Re: The case against 3rd party software... 2016/05/11 15:50:21 (permalink)
Sampletank 3's VST3 seems to have a lot of problems with Sonar, problems the VST2 version doesn't seem to have.  I finally gave up and just removed the VST3 version from Program Files and I'm only using the VST2 version.

-Matt
 
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Grem
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Re: The case against 3rd party software... 2016/05/11 20:44:20 (permalink)
msorrels
 
Sampletank 3's VST3 seems to have a lot of problems with Sonar, problems the VST2 version doesn't seem to have.  I finally gave up and just removed the VST3 version from Program Files and I'm only using the VST2 version.


 
What is the drawbacks of not using the Vst3 version?
 
 

Grem

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msorrels
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Re: The case against 3rd party software... 2016/05/11 21:17:41 (permalink)
I don't believe there are any feature differences, at least not with Sonar.  Perhaps vstpreset load/save support?  Not sure, never bothered with that.
 
Some versions of Sonar and some versions of Sampletank's VST3 were better than others (over the last year).  The most recent versions of both (2016.04 and Sampletank 3.6.5) right now started crashing more often than ever.  Crashes the VST2 version doesn't seem to have.  The callstack on the crashes were all Sampletank but getting IK to look at or fix something is a futile quest.

-Matt
 
#9
Grem
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Re: The case against 3rd party software... 2016/05/12 00:22:23 (permalink)
msorrels
 
...but getting IK to look at or fix something is a futile quest.




Thanks for the info.
 
Getting them to do anything about ST3 is a crap shoot at best!! I think they have it in for us SPlat users cause of the company we keep!! LOL : )

Grem

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bitflipper
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Re: The case against 3rd party software... 2016/05/12 12:56:01 (permalink)
VST3 offers almost no benefit over VST2, certainly not in sound quality. It has a few new features that are unnecessary and largely irrelevant unless you have sample libraries that can utilize note expression. It means you can use your new plugins with Cubase. Beyond that, I really don't understand the rush to embrace VST3. I guess it's because 3 is a bigger number than 2?


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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Beagle
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Re: The case against 3rd party software... 2016/05/12 15:09:23 (permalink)
bitflipper
VST3 offers almost no benefit over VST2, certainly not in sound quality. It has a few new features that are unnecessary and largely irrelevant unless you have sample libraries that can utilize note expression. It means you can use your new plugins with Cubase. Beyond that, I really don't understand the rush to embrace VST3. I guess it's because 3 is a bigger number than 2?


it DOES mean that I can use my yamaha moxf plugins in sonar now that sonar supports vst3 because those plugins were not vst2 compatible.
 
although now that I am able to use them...I haven't...go figure.

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BobF
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Re: The case against 3rd party software... 2016/05/12 15:41:55 (permalink)
bitflipper
VST3 offers almost no benefit over VST2, certainly not in sound quality. It has a few new features that are unnecessary and largely irrelevant unless you have sample libraries that can utilize note expression. It means you can use your new plugins with Cubase. Beyond that, I really don't understand the rush to embrace VST3. I guess it's because 3 is a bigger number than 2?




Good to know VST3 vs VST2.
 
I haven't bothered with ST3 VST3 and I haven't had any problems.  I've imported all of the sounds from the Total Studio 2 bundle and they all work as expected.  I do NOT however do any classical instrument articulations and such.

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bigcatt
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Re: The case against 3rd party software... 2016/05/12 17:49:52 (permalink)
The ST3 VST3 has trouble with Studio One as well. VST2 works fine.
Yeah I'm no longer an IKM fan, too many marketing practices that seem shady to me. To little caring about the end consumer. I mean I pulled my vsts down when they created a problem for one person and Maize rebuilt the whole sampler and then I rebuilt every single instrument just to fix the problem and I give the stuff away. I'd expect IKM to put more effort into fixing BSOD issues.
Note I do appreciate that nice marketing chap who wanders these forums and tries to help and don't envy him his job.
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kitekrazy1
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Re: The case against 3rd party software... 2016/05/12 20:50:25 (permalink)
 I've had issues of IK stuff not working well in Sonar but the problem did not exist in Reaper.  Just what exactly are you doing with ST to make is crash?

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Rain
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Re: The case against 3rd party software... 2016/05/12 22:14:15 (permalink)
For the record, I'm running the Audio Unit version in Logic. I couldn't say about the merits of VST2 vs VST3.
 
On paper, there are a lot of things that I like about ST3 over ST2. As Bit said, the upgrade seemed like a no-brainer. But I remember that the fun began from the moment I started installing it and importing legacy instruments. In fact, I remember exactly how that night of late September 2014 was also wasted.
 
Fortunately, I have a sampler that covers most of my bread and butter needs and then some. But there are things like the Miroslav library which I would like to use. However, some of those patches don't seem to sound quite the way they did in their own shell or in ST2.
 
In fact, most of the libraries/instruments I would have a use for are part of those legacy add-ons, though I have also found more than adequate "native" alternatives for things such as SampleTron. I don't care much for "general MIDI" type of instruments, I don't need another mediocre honky tonk piano patch or average guiro sample.
 
Part of my frustration with 3rd party comes form the fact that we now need to install two times as much software as we want to use to accommodate every manufacturer's own mean of authorization. Waves have theirs, Cakewalk have theirs, FXPansion now have theirs (as I learned a few weeks ago when I decided to re-install BFD), etc. 
 
Ultimately, I just don't like to be forced into installing and/or updating software. When I upgraded the studio computer, I decided to treat it like a hardware recorder and to keep it as clean as possible. I decided not to install a lot of the plug-ins I owned and to only install the essential.
 
In spite of that, I end up with a computer that's cluttered with a lot of software that's only there to allow me to run software which I paid for. 
 
And yet, there are things I can't yet imagine myself w/o - I'm really liking Rapture Pro these days.

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pwalpwal
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Re: The case against 3rd party software... 2016/05/13 03:34:26 (permalink)
bitflipper
VST3 offers almost no benefit over VST2, certainly not in sound quality. It has a few new features that are unnecessary and largely irrelevant unless you have sample libraries that can utilize note expression. It means you can use your new plugins with Cubase. Beyond that, I really don't understand the rush to embrace VST3. I guess it's because 3 is a bigger number than 2?


much like going from windows xp --> 7 --> 10...
i expect that in the future more sample libraries will take advantage of the new features of vst3

just a sec

#17
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