The most stupidest

I've come across a few members who feel pretty darn stupid about how to use Sonar products even after reading the Help file, getting answers from people in the forum, etc.

So I'm dedicating this post to us who know we are SONAR-stupid!

If you are one of these stupid people, give a shout-out below...

Maybe if enough of us stupid users make enough ****ed noise, Cakewalk will dumb-down the Help-files in their programs a bit (like telling us where a button is while showing us a picture of it) and forum members who parade around big-recording-lingo-words can treat us as dumb as we are so we can actually learn how to do a simple task after 1 reply!

ORIGINAL: witch wyzwurd
forum members who parade around big-recording-lingo-words can treat us as dumb as we are so we can actually learn how to do a simple task after 1 reply!

What other words are people who record music supposed to use? Sorry, but I don't get your point there at all.

That's like asking your French teacher to stop talking in a foreign language!

Hey guys, thanks for joining in the conversation. I know this is a free-for-all forum, but would you respect my post's request please.

If you are one of these stupid people, give a shout-out below...

But in lieu of the responses, I'll respond...

What other words are people who record music supposed to use? Sorry, but I don't get your point there at all.
That's like asking your French teacher to stop talking in a foreign language!

You wouldn't get the point of your French teacher if she never spoke in English to explain French. Or the textbook if it was only written in French.

Yeah...Better to use proper terminologies with the correct information than to use "simple" wording with the wrong information.

Hey! You made up that second part to confuse the reader into thinking something that has something to do with nothing... Who said anything about wrong information?


What I'm saying is more like this: If you want to access layers in an audio track, press the Layers-button located at the upper-right hand side of your track... the little square icon that looks like a vent or a grill because it has 3 vertical lines on it. A new user isn't going to know where or what the Layer button is or looks like unless you explicitly tell them. The dumbed-down version, anyone can follow.

I know that. But that has nothing to do with the general point I just made. I wasn't referring to his link at all. Thanks for responding.

ORIGINAL: foxwolfen

Often if I do not understand what I am reading, I google it and try to understand that word, term or phrase, then apply it back to what I need. Not always efficient, but so far I have not come across any show stoppers if I am willing to do the leg work a bit.

Shad,

That is one of the most overlooked steps that a new or intemediate user of ANY DAW software can take to gain a better understanding of what "things" are and what "they" do.

Unfortunately, many new users (some of whom know absolutely nothing about audio recording at all) dive into DAW recording having not done much (if any) research; Then they freak out because they can't find the "Magic Button" they thought was included because the software was advertised as "Plug 'N Play". That's when many of them turn to the forums first expecting "miracles" despite the fact that they haven't even looked at the manual.

As for the "incomprehensible" jargon, many of us simply have a difficult time "dumbing down" our explanations without sounding condescending or, even worse, further confusing the user because the DAW realm--like it or not--isn't "simple" and "dumbing down" isn't contributing to the learning process.

ORIGINAL: papa2004
Unfortunately, many new users (some of whom know absolutely nothing about audio recording at all) dive into DAW recording having not done much (if any) research; Then they freak out because they can't find the "Magic Button" they thought was included because the software was advertised as "Plug 'N Play". That's when many of them turn to the forums first expecting "miracles" despite the fact that they haven't even looked at the manual.

Papa - I can not argue with you about that. You are quite correct that there are often assumptions that is should be easy, and that will always lead some people down a path of despair and frustration.

ORIGINAL: witch wyzwurd
Reading a manual is not going to be beneficial, unless it's used coincidingly while messing around with the program.

That, my friend, is exactly what needs to be done.

It would be nice to "jump in" and assume that everything will be easy, but nothing in life is. We are not born with the knowledge needed to do much of anything. We are uniquely dependent on learning everything we must do. This takes time, and it takes effort. Everything has a learning curve, some of which are rather steep.

I taught college for a while and many of my students seemed unwilling to recognize that outside of primary education, we are expected to learn things on our own. Teachers and tutors are there to facilitate the process by directing you to the appropriate resources, not actively feed you knowledge.

Many students feel this is not fair and that they should be hand held the whole way.

But life is not like that. Outside of elementary school, nobody will hand hold us. People will actually actively avoid doing so, and resent us for asking for it. And rightly so in my mind. We are responsible for ourselves once we reach the age where we can formally reason (around 12-13 years old).

Cheers
Shad

I think you are missing the point.

What I am saying is that first and foremost we are responsible for our own education once we are adults. If we know we are not well educated in a particular subject it is not reasonable to assume that others will know that fact, especially if we are participating in a forum where a higher level of understanding will be assumed such as for a DAW.

It is our responsibility to first state that we are not up on the jargon, or do not understand a concept, etc..

I am stating that it is also unreasonable to ask that all members dumb down by default. This is inefficient when the vast majority do not require it. So once again, it becomes the responsibility of the new member to bootstrap themselves up to the level of the community. Its a bit like law... ignorance is no defense for breaking it - the justice system does not care, as it places responsibility on you to be aware of all laws pertaining to where you live. This is actually reasonable.

I myself grew up at a time when there was no such thing as a personal computer, let alone the internet. If I wanted to learn something, I had to physically trudge my butt to the library and look it up. Today, this is no longer required. I have a wealth of information at my fingertips. Because information is so easy to access today it becomes even less understandable why a person would not use the vast resources they have available to them before asking others to spend their increasingly valuable time answering questions that the asker could easily answer for themselves.

That being said, yes the help files could use some more pictures that show what buttons the text is describing. In that I am in agreement. But, there are tool tips on every button and its not really that hard to spend a few moments relating what you read in the help file back to the interface by hovering over a button to find out what it does. The help files do give you menu items that pertain to the toolbars so you can click the referred to toolbar on or off the get a basic reference.

Cheers
Shad

"I don't see why one should assume that a higher-level of understanding..."

A community will take on its own particular dynamic, and so far I have found that in music production/sound design, there is a much higher level of basic knowledge required than a Word For Windows forum for example. I have been a member of this community only a short time now, but I have come to realize that I am perhaps one of the dumber members here. The vast majority of posted questions are far over my head. When I first joined, I had to ask a member what a pad was. It did not take me long to realize that it is the nature of the beast that these things are extremely sophisticated applications.

I have been doing video production and editing using NLE's for the last few years. One might think that video production would be more complex, but it is far far simpler than music production. This has been one of the most difficult and challenging things I have done.

"It's ridiculous that anyone else will post answers in a way that the new user does not understand".

I agree, but having read hundreds of posts I have not seen that particular circumstance arise by intent in any sort of consistent fashion. As mentioned in a previous answer, this is really quite tame by comparison to development forums.

"..the justice system isn't right"

Who said anything about the justice system being right? The example made was to illustrate that ignorance is ours to overcome. That we are expected to learn the law of the land on our own. Its a bit of an extreme example, but I had hoped it would make things a bit clearer.

"...why is the forum here then?"

The same as any user based forum (as opposed to an official support forum which these are not). To share information and experience... to help direct people to resources they may not be aware of. If a person is not finding it satisfactory in its degree of personalization then there is little anyone can do about that. Again, its our responsibility to conform to that society's (or subsections thereof) expectations and norms, not the other way around. If the majority of the community works in one way, then anybody who wishes to swim against the current will have a harder time than those who swim with it. This is the nature of life itself.

This community has developed in this way, and it works well enough for its own purposes. If a person does not feel its right for them, there are other communities available to them that they might find they fit better into. But, if they do decide that this community is not for them, it does not give them the right to complain about or disparage this one, because this community works well for those who participate here. If it didn't the community would not thrive as this one seems to be doing. That too is the nature of life itself.

I am not saying that they are not wrong in the way they want their community to run. But kind of like the dynamic between men and women, not every community is compatible with every member. Sometimes the correct thing to do is recognize that incompatibility and go separate ways with mutual respect for their differences. I myself do not like every forum I have joined. There are very often personal dynamics that I find intolerable. Complaining about it is pointless, so I just move on.

I do not know if you are expressing your own personal frustrations with the DAW. But it sounds to me that you are feeling a sense of injustice that you are not learning the DAW as easily as you would like. That is unfortunate, but, not everybody was cut out to be a recording engineer. If you are applying yourself and its still not coming to you how to accomplish basic tasks then you might consider that this field is not for you. I am not saying this to be mean, just stating what you may need to hear, even if you do not want to hear it.

Ahh, well I am also pretty descriptive with answers that require it. Others have been as well, and you yourself point out that people have done it for you, so I am not really to sure what it is you are actually frustrated about anymore.

Cheers
Shad

"Some people seem to be caught in the one-way-or-nothing line of thinking."

LOL, I think that would be you my friend .

You can't force people to do what you want. Some people are good, some are not as good. There is little point complaining about it. I spent a lot of time trying to say that politely, but now its time for:

Get over it.

That's life so deal with it already.

Yeah, I think they should reduce the scrolling speed in the Help files - this is giving all those brainiac speed-readers out there only a totally unfair advantage. Unacceptable.

[Seriously now, the only thing you'll manage with dumbing down stuff is to rear a generation too stupid to follow even that. Learning was never supposed to be effortless, it costs energy and attention. There is no Human Rights Declaration to guarantee instant understanding for all. No effort, no gain. How do you 'dumb down' something that takes practice? By skipping the excercise? Or 'pretend' to have done it? Good luck.]

I am Sonar special ;)  Not dumb I just have issues :P

I get what witch is saying

I started useing Sonar about 6 months ago and jumped in at the deep end with Producer 8.5 and a vs700 system

I had come here bcause I hate protools and it is the devil but that is another story for another day.....
At least with protools I had a basic understanding but sonar was a lot different to it and A LOT BETTER ASWELL!

It was a huge learning curve and I am only begining to scratch the surface learning more and more each day and I love it.

I understand what you meen witch BUT thats what the tutorial vidios are for to actualy show people what to do over and over and over again. The videos kicking around on here are awesome and I would have been lost with out them.

To show some one is beter than to try and explain it....

A few times I have had problems with something and made a video to send to the guys in the VS700 forum and tec support simply because I didnt know the best way to expalain my problem.

From a learning point of view though thats why cakewalk/ Roland put up all there videos for and it explains things step by step

That is all thats needed IMO its the best way :)

Also if someone says a word or something some one else who is new isnt able to understand the person with the problem shouldnt be embarresed about say WOOOOOO hold the bus here! I have no Idea what you have said or meen and just ask and explain they are haveing trouble understanding. (more for the beginer to be specific about what they cant understand rather than the long term user)

Ive been there and it never hurts to ask again if you dont understand an answer or word people are really cool about it as they will always remember that!........ Everyone had / has had to start somewhere :)

Good thread though!

Norrie

Roflcopter


Yeah, I think they should reduce the scrolling speed in the Help files - this is giving all those brainiac speed-readers out there only a totally unfair advantage. Unacceptable.

[Seriously now, the only thing you'll manage with dumbing down stuff is to rear a generation too stupid to follow even that. Learning was never supposed to be effortless, it costs energy and attention. There is no Human Rights Declaration to guarantee instant understanding for all. No effort, no gain. How do you 'dumb down' something that takes practice? By skipping the excercise? Or 'pretend' to have done it? Good luck.]

But the GOAL of teaching with help files and tutorials should be to make the learning process as efficient as possible. This means framing the material in a way that is easily understood by the majority of people. The more people who can understand the exlanation quickly, the better. Your answer comes off as very elitist... "I can figure it out with no problem so you must be a lazy minded idiot". The fact is that different people learn things different ways at different speeds. People think differently, have different backgrounds and experiences.

It is not stupid not to know. It is, however stupid not to continue to ask questions until the  answers make sense.  No one in this form started out knowing it all. I still know very little and have been playing music for 40 years.  N0 one does or will ever know everything. keep asking questions and ask them of different people .If some of the answers are put  in a way you don't quite get, just say so and someone will help. The resources on these forums  are endless and most of the members will bend over backwards to help.Also  the guys at Cake are a phone call away and there is no better,or equaled support in the industry. Use your resources. Ask Lots of questions. Best of luck. By the way, I haven't seen a good  written manual from any company and Ive tried most of the DAW software out there.    I am still running into terms I don't know, so I  just ask someone. 
Best of luck

In a restaurant: When you ask the child stupid question: - Is the "Butter Paneer Masala" good: -? Answer: No, its terrible and adulterated cement. You can also spit on.