The opposite of compression

I see many threads about compressors every day. They seem to be the primary concern of recording studios.

I'm actually interested in the opposite. How can I increase my dynamic range when recording? It's stuck in my head because I was spinning some vinyl and got the Wagner going. The amount of dynamic range I could perceive was huge. From whisper quiet to roaring thunder. Very heavy stuff.

This doesn't seem to be an issue that's often discussed. Compressors are cool but I'm finding the increased dynamic range I hear on some recordings is actually something I would spend some time learning about. Are there any good primers on enhancing dynamic range??

Expansion.... does that mean turn the knobs as far clockwise as they will go? 

I use compression only when I need it..... which is most of the time..... but not to the point where everything is a brick when I finish. 


Like this>>>   dang.... I missed a few spots .... I can see white in there.... 

dbx 228 was a single unit with dynamic range expansion and type II tape noise reduction.

I've still got an operational one but haven't used it for quite awhile, especially since I don't have any dbx encoded discs any more.  It was always amazing how absolutely silent the lead-in of a dbx disc was when the needle dropped into the grove.  And cassette tapes recorded with dbx were also dead silent.
Oh.....I've digressed.....

Great Thread!

There may be hyper-dynamics and ultra-dynamics ... mega and micro dynamics.
... also, 'attack-transients', a sub-science of micro dynamics, I suppose.

iirc, Waves has an 'uncompressor' (that I never used) ... which probably exaggerates the gain levels of wave-forms.

IMHO, ME's oft have the problem of 'glue' and 'gel' ... that is ... smearing compression over delicate timbres and reverbs ... to make a song more presentable 'as a whole'.

The Katz-paradigm (iirc)  of 13+ dcbs of crest-factor (Mean-Peak) dynamics is safe ... but at the expense of gel/glue.

Of course, Katz doesn't appear to me to be much of a hip-hop dancer!

I prefer dance songs to have about 10 dcbs ... with plenty of mix gel/glue ... so the dancer/skater can dance.

Some mega dynamics (which my ears love):
1) Intro and outro fades
2) Rests and Middle sections
3) Verse-Chorus difference in loudness
4) Varying instrument dynamics ... automated into specific sections and out.
5) Vox: While vocs vary in sections, I like them compressed always.  TBH, I find vox dynamics disturbing within 8 bar sections

Micro-dyamics (my ears seem to love):
1) Transient-attacks are critical to my ears
2) Reverb transients above 1000Hz or so
3) Kick drum transients!!!
4) Bass-riff transients
5) Vox transients below 2 kHz
6) Percussive transients per-se (but not always loud ... especially in the highs)

A challenge (for me), is to preserve transients while glue-ing song sections as mini-songs.  A good mixer and ME probably works 8 measures at a time ... and is then careful not to squash things later.

I would think, (I personally think) a great hip-hop mixer *masters* his bass and kick stems with appropriate glue-comps and transients ... balanced ... and that he must not allow an ME to corrupt the dynamics of the low end.

Even if the groove-meister allows wide-dynamics (for radio and other comps), I'd suppose the ME should deal with the bass and kick stems 'outside' the mix as a separate stem.  Else too much 'general' gel will, destroy the bass-symphonics the meister worked for.

An Expander is the opposite of a Compressor. The original use of compression / expansion was to compress the signal to smaller dynamic range. The lower levels are now compressed to a higher level above the noise floor. Thus, a complementary expander is required to re-expanded the compressed signal to nearly the same dynamic range as the original. Dolby type B was only effective for higher frequency signals, whereas Dolby C also addressed the lower frequency signals IIRC.

The use of compressors/expanders in DAWs are not generally used in this fashion.


** Wow some of message looks like it was deleted, edited ***

Tap


An Expander is the opposite of a Compressor. The original use of compression / expansion was to compress the signal to smaller dynamic range. The lower levels are now compressed to a higher Thus, a complementary expander is required to re-expanded the compressed signal to nearly the same dynamic range as the original. Dolby type B was only effective for higher frequency signals, whereas Dolby C also addressed the lower frequency signals IIRC.

The use of compressors/expanders in DAWs are not generally used in this fashion.

One caveat - most expanders you'll find (outside of companding used for NR) do downward expansion, meaning when the signal drops below the threshold the level is reduced.

Most compressors also compress downwards - they reduce the level when the signal goes above the threshold.

But you can also have upward expansion (signals above the threshold get increased) or upward compression (signals below the threshold get increased). These types are much less common but exist and can be useful for certain things.

The opposite of compression is de-compression. Just saying.

Well, I guess getting older I got tired of surround sound and hi-fi sound of VHS tapes when it came out. Now, DVDs with movies want to give you PTSD with the explosions and anything else. Fine I guess if you are young, but I did it for 10 years or so and finally it got tiring (at least to me). Now I go still to a movie now and then (actually I play more movies on my computer) and still you get in there at the movie theater, and what is loud, the system for the sound of the movie. Just don't care for it anymore, and now 3D whatever just don't appeal to me either. I think it is going overboard (and yes, I am getting old), but after awhile what someone thought sounded great was creating more stress to put up with then to me for what it was worth. Only so many times can you stress yourself out and think that you were having fun (when to me it is not anymore).

So you can have the million dollar studio and have the most sound you ever wanted and still it ends up usually as a *.mp3.
Or it is rented and taken back after the weekend.
??
Will it stay or not? Usually, it's always seems to go back to stereo and 2 channels so far.

Thanks to everyone for sharing their opinions, I learned a thing or two. I guess with digital the dynamic range with 24 bit recording is much higher than the old analog stuff. I agree with spacealf when it comes to modern theaters. I almost feel assaulted by the volume levels and dynamics.

I think in retrospect that I should have used a different thread title. Maybe "why so much emphasis on compression when it reduces dynamic range".

If I listen to Sirrius radio running through my sound system I get ear fatigue. If I listen to radio on my Nordmandy tube hi-fi I never get ear fatigue. I can leave  it running in the background for hours when working. I can only assume that the transients are softened by the analogue set and soft clipping.

I continue to learn so I guess you can teach an old dog.

oops !
 
The all bold was a complete accident.
 
I swear

bitflipper


spacealf makes a good point about the practical limits of dynamic range in recorded versus live music. Some compression is going to be called for in recordings most of the time, regardless of the genre, just as a practical matter. 

Ever try to listen to highly dynamic classical music while driving down the highway? Or have you ever been to a concert that was uncomfortably loud, louder than you'd ever play it at home? We'll always want to moderate the extremes for purely practical reasons. 

However, given the sorry state of compression in the world of commercial music, you don't need 96db of dynamic range to sound really, really dynamic. A mere 14 to 20db is all you need to stand out from the crowd!

[Gawd, what is it with this forum software? I switched from my preferred browser to accommodate it, and still cannot get predictable formatting.]

Now, I may be wrong here, but that's sounds more like volume to me and this isn't me being sarcastic given the likewise comment I made when noting my ineptness regarding how a compressor works.

Of course, if you go to a live concert, it's clearly a volume thing; however, I've seen those same concerts and others on YT and it sounds like my speakers wanna break though they're at reasonable dB. (bass thumps). Compression has alot to do with it as it's not just the size of the speaker (mic - that really all a speaker is) that picks up the frequencies. Not mine - the one that was at the live show recording. (Maybe a camcorder or a cell phone. Much smaller mics here)

My desktop speakers (2.1) sound pretty good and I can still get bass from the satellites even if I turn the sub all the way down. However, the frequencies further left of the spectrum dissipate because they can't pick them up.

So, here's my question and I'm being serious ...

When is it wise to use compression/limiting vs. cranking the volume? While I know there's more to it and one shouldn't use compression/limiting as such, I've heard that you need to mix at a fairly low (not inaudible level), so you can then add those two things later.

Oh, how I wish to fit entire orchestra in my room and why not? My room is larger than my mind; yet, I can put multiple orchestras in there and there'd be no problem of any kind! :)

Rus W

Kalle Rantaaho


As mentioned by someone already, and comping Bitflipper, I see expanders as something that are only needed to correct mistakes or poor choices, and that high dynamics is a thing that comes naturally during the recording, unless you deliberately ruin it with wrong decisions.

You can (but you should not) record every instrument knocking the red, and maintain the dynamics,unless you don't compress it during input. The dynamics of the project (the difference between the loudest and most quiet part) stays the same, no matter if its recorded hot or "cold", as long as compressor is not used, isn't it? In the mixing you just need to realise that a flute pianissimo isn't as loud as cello fortissimo.

LOL You need to realize the differences between piano and forte to begin with! I didn't mean it condescendingly because some people don't really know. I laughed because it was hilarious when I imagined it and also given the way you worded it.


Flutes in playing forte are quieter than cellos playing pianissimo generally; therefore, in terms of them competing, the cello wins. That's just two instruments, but put something like the harp up against the rest of the orchestra. She will lose even though she's playing her loudest. That why you may see her up there twice or accompanied by someone else. 


Or if it's a sequence, don't turn her up, turn everybody else down. However, given how midi works, put her in there twice; she'll speak up then and possibly over everybody else, too! (I literally just did this and sure enough, it worked!)

You deliberately misunderstood the point, so your comment can be fully ignored, luckily.

I appreciate Bit's comments. I think dynamics as much about perception than db. A bit of space every bar or two to let the ears recover works pretty well. Lots of funk tunes expose the snare with a bit of silence. The other thing that fights dynamics is too much distortion. I often see folks compressing highly distorted guitar tracks, in a mix with way too many distorted guitar tracks. I'm not quite sure what they're compressing.

Kalle, Russ
Are you guys making fun of me ?
 
 

As mentioned by someone already, and comping Bitflipper, I see expanders as something that are only needed to correct mistakes or poor choices

 
That just seems crazy to me.
Fix something jacked up by a dynamics processor with more dynamic processing?
 

You can (but you should not) record every instrument knocking the red, and maintain the dynamics,unless you don't compress it during input. The dynamics of the project (the difference between the loudest and most quiet part) stays the same, no matter if its recorded hot or "cold", as long as compressor is not used, isn't it? In the mixing you just need to realise that a flute pianissimo isn't as loud as cello fortissimo.

Seriously? It really feels like your making fun of me.
Or do you really not get it?
 
I digress
 
Anyone ever hear of a leveling amplifier
 
No one hear uses a compressor to color and slightly distort an instrument?
I do it all the time with a bottom snare. If done right you can get some really great sounds.
 
And I must be the only one who uses parallel, and two stage compression.
Its the only way I know how to get a really punchy snare and kick.
Also works great on vocals
 
Wow I feel really stupid.