The perfect synth

Ok a bit of dreaming here, but if you could design your perfect synth what would it include?

You have a blank piece of paper and an unlimited R&D budget. What control would it have? How would it sound? Try to think beyond the standard oscillator/filter/envelope arrangement...

Thanks for the feedback. I'd like to expand in the rationale behind the apparent "lack of specification" mentioned above.

Both Dimension Pro and Rapture are based in a very enhanced/expanded sfz player. It is enhanced in terms of resources usage, sound quality and transparency, input formats and stability. It is expanded, in the fact that it incorporates many new opcodes when compared with the original sfz specification. Those opcodes include format-useability things, more input controls, more performance parameters, the creation of user effect objects and busses, etc.

Both Dimension Pro and Rapture are described, promoted, published and demonstrated as self-contained instruments. This means, they are ready to have a fully, complete user experience right out of the box. When you see Dimension Pro ads, for instance, you will see that the highlights are how great the sound quality is, how cool is the sound pallete and how flexible it is to edit sounds to death. There's enough editing and dsp power in the interface to easily blow most competitors away, without even entering in the deepness of the sfz format.


Both instruments can load many different formats, including sfz format files. There's a complete documentation for the sfz format, here:

http://www.rgcaudio.com/sfzformat.htm


There you'll find everything you need to create multisamples for Dimension Pro or Rapture, based on raw files. There's loads of control there, enough to keep even most avid sample library designers busy for aeons. The original sfz format is, for instance, much more powerful than Akai, SoundFont, SampleCell, EMU, Kurzweil, EXS and Gigastudio formats, when it's about mapping samples and setting performance control, and in almost every aspect you compare.

Then there's the 'undocumented' set of opcodes that you seem to be irritated about. We created those in order to provide specific functionality for the synth, and is included in the factory multisamples. As that 'expansion' is moving, we decided to keep it 'internal' so we don't have to worry about breaking backwards compatibility when expanding it in every new instrument. Then we have a 'fixed set' (sfz description in above link) and a 'flexible set' which we could use as moving bed, for new development. Our idea is that when the concept is solid enough, we would 'print' the expansions and document those.

You might see that we haven't ever mentioned anything about the 'expanded set' in the media, nor tried to get any competitive advantage of it by publishing, documenting or including it in advertising or specification a single word about the 'expanded set'. That would be naturally bad, as we would promising stuff that we haven't documented yet.

I feel that what we have done is completely fair to customers. Dimension Pro and Rapture deliver what we say they deliver, and they're outstanding at that. There could be more on them? sure, and there will be.


Sorry for hijacking the thread me too.

-René

Could you develop something ... that was as simple as a vibrating string, where the harmonic and dynamics were a direct result of the users input without resorting to the classic oscillator/filter/envelope arrangement?

Check this out, Trevor. Don't know about the copy protection, though. OK: I do know ...

There isn't enough time for me right now to add to the "perfect synth" topic.
I will later, though, when I have a spare 48 hours to write it up.

ORIGINAL: René
I wouldn't dare to say we'll be doing an all-experimental thing anytime soon.

Well you are probably correct until someone with influence creates that 21st C mini moog and we start to expand our music theory beyond western commercial influence.

Thanks for the response.

Oh, while I remember thank you for the coming Scala option in DP.

My perfect synth is physical modelling. The waveguide would be such a synth. Not only does it break the o/f/e mould, it also provides a good place for all those controllers to be routed to.

Imagine a guitar bend, which really sounds like a real guitar string being bent. Pitchbend shifts the entire sample, in effect making the whole guitar change size. But if you model the string and body, we are talking potential for realism here. Not necessarily imitating existing instruments, but physically modelling instruments that do not exist, yet respond like a true instrument.

The challenge to my mind is to come up with a user interface which doesn't terrify folks that cannot imagine anything other than a o/f/e synth (kinda like the DX7 did - altho' it still had EGs), but still allows access the richness of what the waveguide model offers.

Imagine modelling a banjo (Irish folk music is my scene - bear with me!), but deciding the body needs a more mellow tone. Today you may just filter off some tops. But what if you can make the velum resonate differently? The tops stay, but the formant has a totally different structure compliant with a looser banjo velum.

I own a Yamaha VL70m and WX5 and that's a fantastic combination.
But it's 10-year-old technology. I wonder what would be possible today!

Here's some links to whet your appetite:

-> http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~amburns/physique/basic.html
(whole thing) http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~amburns/physique/index.html
http://www.harmony-central.com/Synth/Articles/Physical_Modeling/#wav
http://www.enlightenedsystems.com/vl/physmodl.htm

I was going to say: watch where Cakewalk takes that waveguide. However, René's previous response has made me less sure:

lost sheep said: Could you develop something that is almost the complete opposite of Rapture, that was as simple as a vibrating string, where the harmonic and dynamics were a direct result of the users input without resorting to the classic oscillator/filter/envelope arrangement?

René replied: I would think that I could. I don't think it'll happen though.

ORIGINAL: René

So, I would hope the perfect synth would be equal or better than the hardware synths out there. As was mentioned in the aforementioned forum, the Korg OASYS is much better than anything we can have on our PCs. I believe the challenge ought to be to create a software based synth just as good and better.... PCs have dominated so many markets. Why can't it dominate this one too?

I don't think the OASYS is much better than anything we can have in our PCs. OASYS is pretty much the best hardware gizmo I've ever tried. Last time I was in GC I spent an hour playing on it, and realized that 80% of the sounds come from the Triton Extreme Pro (which I own). Those were an expansion from the set in the Trinity series (which I also own), which came from the O1/W and the M1 (guess what... which I also own). The sound set in the OASYS has like 17 years of evolutive layers, and considering the its price, surely hundred-of-thousands spent in media/sound design.

Still being a $14995 (now reduced to $8995, you might guess why) beast, the OASYS won't give you a fraction of the realism in the orchestral sounds that, for instance, Dimension Pro provides. Just listen to the demos of both, and compare.
If you take a look at film/tv scoring, computers have replaced hardware synths 100%. If you think in modern studio producing, it's a big percentage as well. There're quite a few scenarios where hardware things still prevail, like live performance.

So in my view, anyone can have in an inexpensive computer a better set of virtual instruments, with better sounding tools, with less money. Hardware industry has already felt that hit (looking at the sales numbers), and it seems it will continue going down in the years to come.


-René

This was my thoughts exactly in this post and the other post I referenced. Thanks for showing me that I wasn't in the dark. I just couldn't understand why a PC couldn't be as good.....

Adam

Hardware synths have, in reality, been software synths internally for a surprisingly long time. My Roland D110 is based on a standard industrial microprocessor, and I'm not talking about just for remembering presets, I really mean sound generation, like oscillators and filters.

Amusingly, hardware synths suffer from things like latency, too. A recent example was the Motif rack Mk. I.

True, personal computer and operating systems are not intended for real-time processing, but nowadays, even a low-end notebook has plenty of processing power to spare.

ORIGINAL: René

Did you know that the OASYS is a computer with a Pentium chip and a 40 gig hard drive that runs on a proprietary version of Linux ?

That's true, but slightly misleading. The OASYS -has- a computer, running Linux (there have been guys who've been able to boot externally on it), but the OS serves mostly for 'administrative' purposes, and not to generate the sound itself. Or at least not totally. There's loads of proprietary, dsp power on it.


-René

Well, the way it was explained to me was that OASYS takes on some of the lower level priorities that a Windows operating system normally occupies. That leaves more power or cpu cycles that can be dedicated to sound rendering. This is an advantage over a regular pc, but at what cost? I don't want to pay $8000 for something that cannot be expanded when I can buy a pc. As far as I know, they have only added one synth since it has been on the market, and there aren't any third party software programs yet.

So much for Open Architecture!!!!!

Here's a nice easy challenge for René: Create a midi matrix MFX for Project 5. This will then enable performance control of ALL my P5 synths. Suddenly P5 has a definite advantage. I bet you could program this in your lunch break René! Got the $'s waiting at this end. Do you think you could have it on my desk by Monday?

Haha thanks for your vote of confidence. But we have been talking about some super stuff for Project5 (not monday, more mid/long term future).



-René

ORIGINAL: René

Haha thanks for your vote of confidence. But we have been talking about some super stuff for Project5

Is this guy a tease, or what?

(not monday, more mid/long term future).

U-huh. So next Friday, then?

René is brutal at times, ain't he. He just kinda lays it out there waiting for us to take the bate.

It just ain't right man!!!!

My most versatile PM synth is Tassman4. It has its warts, and it's GUI is about as un-Dimension and "mad scientist" as they come. ... but the two vendors that seem to know PM best are AAS (Tassman, String Studio, Lounge Lizard & Ultra Analog) and Liqih of Dash/Nusofting (Harptime, Microrock, and Modelonia).

Doug

ORIGINAL: dougsyo

My most versatile PM synth is Tassman4. It has its warts, and it's GUI is about as un-Dimension and "mad scientist" as they come. ... but the two vendors that seem to know PM best are AAS (Tassman, String Studio, Lounge Lizard & Ultra Analog) and Liqih of Dash/Nusofting (Harptime, Microrock, and Modelonia).

Doug

Do you have any of these Doug? If so how easy is it to apply performance control, like aftertouch etc.

ORIGINAL: lost sheep

ORIGINAL: dougsyo

My most versatile PM synth is Tassman4. It has its warts, and it's GUI is about as un-Dimension and "mad scientist" as they come. ... but the two vendors that seem to know PM best are AAS (Tassman, String Studio, Lounge Lizard & Ultra Analog) and Liqih of Dash/Nusofting (Harptime, Microrock, and Modelonia).

Do you have any of these Doug? If so how easy is it to apply performance control, like aftertouch etc.

For PM (physical modeling) instruments, I have Tassman4, Harptime fun (celtic harp), Microrock (bass), and Modelonia (string, horn, and even some mallet-like capabilities).

Tassman and Modelonia are the most versatile, but in different ways:

- Tassman is a modular synth (much easier than Reaktor). I got hooked on this because of the Tassman4Free that was bundled with MTM mag a couple years ago. I am waiting for what's in Tassman5 but it's not announced yet (the big lack right now is conical-bore wind instruments, currently the wind instruments are cylindrical bore). You DEFINITELY have to work the tutorials to get the hang of Tassman.

- Modelonia has a horn/wind and a string generator side-by-side, you tweak each and adjust the balance between the two. It has a "sound wizard" to give you a starting point. The "string stiffness" is what gives it the mallet-like ability. If you own (or buy first) Harptime, Microrock, Peti, Knagalis, or Eve, there's a $20 discount on it - http://www.modelonia.com (that would bring Modelonia + Harptime Fun to $9 more than Modelonia alone).

To be honest, I'm a lousy keyboard player, so aftertouch etc are things I just don't use well. In addition, the keyboard I often use with my laptop (Korg Microkontrol) doesn't have aftertouch. All of them have demos, so I'd go that route instead.

As far as the other AAS instruments - people swear by them, but I gave them a miss because:
UA: I have enough VA synths, no matter how good it is. Also, "physical modeling" of an analog synth is a stretch IMHO.
LL: I use samples for rhodes & wurly EP's.
SS: just never appealed to me.

Incidentally, some of the capabilities in UA, LL, and SS that Tassman lacks right now may well show up in T5.

Doug

-Load a wav file or draw your own in a graphical editor (like in CreamWare Vectron)
I do this in SoundForge

-Play the sample back or extract a wavetable from the file graphically, being able to adjust the wavetable length (Vectron)
Same Here ;)+)

-Scan the wavetable around the wav file with modulation sources or adjust the wavetable length with modulation sources (Propellerhead Maelstrom)
Rapture


-FFT the sample and do harmonic shifting, with modulation
NI's Vocator

-Modulation sources: load a wav file and "extract" a wavetable LFO (interpolating to make smooth), or draw your own; draw your own freeform envelopes
Rapture


-Filters: Usual standard stuff, plus comb filter and other filters -- or draw your own filter shape!
Rapture


-Oscillator Mixing: Vector, or other mixing techniques
Ever try the amplitude modulation In SoundForge?




-Be all aliasing free!
Rapture?