The "Sonar for Live Performance Backing track" Thread

Please keep topic to Backing tracks for traditional Rock, country, Jazz and Folk. Not live VST, that's a different topic. 
 
Every once in a while someone asks this question and I know there are many of us here who play live using backing tracks. 
I thought a thread to share ideas and what works and what doesn't work might be a good resource for people kicking the tires. 
 
As far as creating backing tracks goes Sonar for me is king of the hill. It's a great midi sequencer and it's included VST's are all you need to create a pretty good sounding backing band. As someone who started with a Roland 505 for drums and a Korg Poly 800 playing Bass ( very badly)  what we now have is amazing to me. Not only can you use midi but we can also mix in real instruments as part of the band. 
 
Originally we used midi sequences to drive outboard hardware synths. VST's were a long way down the road. Those sound modules that were on par and often worse than MS Wavetable sounds cost $$$. I lugged an Atari 1040 ST to 100's of gigs along with a rack of sound modules and effect units all weighing over 100lbs.  For me that's all been replaced by a little Asus netbook that weighs about 4lbs. 
 
So first there are many approaches to using backing tracks. Most importantly is what instruments do you require? 
For most of my gigs I've used a pretty sparse backing of just Drums and Bass. Very few of my old tracks included piano, organ or keyboard parts. The reason was disk space if you can believe that. I now include keyboards in every song to provide 'glue". 
I don''t believe in overdoing it or we can be walking a fine line between a musician performing and a Karaoke singer. 
 
Many top 40 bands have relied on sequencers to fill in the holes when they didn't have a Keyboard, Bass or drummer. 
 
Those are the 3 instruments midi does best and if you, like me have those 3 instruments playing following the backing track is straight forward. Please don't even attempt to use midi for guitar parts or I will personally come and unplug your PA :)   
For Bass. Keyboard and drums backing tracks all you need is a stereo or even mono mix. Therefore any playback device will work. 
 
Where it becomes tricky is when you have a real bass player or drummer. Then you cannot just use a stereo track. Bass and drums are what keep time so now you need to follow a click track or? Will get into that latter as the thread progresses. 
 
So making the tracks is easy with Sonar but now lets chew on how to work with this live on stage. 
I'll give you my system which I've used since 2004. 
I play stereo wave files using Win Amp. 
I choose Win Amp because it does a few things no other player seem to do. The most important for me is you can set it to Manual Playlist advance. You can drag the songs around on the set list on the fly. It will re open with your set list intact even if you forgot to save it. You can change the font size. You can re arrange the GUI to fit your screen. And I also control it  with a USB foot switch. 
Because it's dead simple to make a mix of 3 instruments I've rarely had balance issues with my tracks. I proof them through the PA and have a few tricks I use to keep everything the same song to song. At this point I see no advantage to having say 3 tracks output. I am going to give Sonars Playlist a try someday but the only reason is so I will have MIDI to control my effects. 
 
Well that's enough for now.
 
Please add your set up and ideas and yes for sure ask questions. 
 
Things to ponder
Is it better to use pure midi or pure audio, which is more stable? 
Why do you need multi track output and how do you set this up?
What do you use for lyrics?
Other than Sonar what do you find works the best for live playback? 
 
 
 
 
 

I'll be interested to see how this progresses as well. I have been pouring over Youtube to see what others have done or are doing. Lots of folks are downloading a 4.99 app and using their iPad or iPhone to play the tracks. 
 
One guy who does a lot of one man band gigs is ripping karaoke files with a Youtube downloader, importing them into windows media player and adding the words into it so he has a scrolling teleprompter when he sings.
 
I have a drummer who will need a click to play backing tracks. No matter what you use to play the tracks the general technique seems to be this: Take a 1/8" stereo male from playback device to 2 x 1/4" male mono plugs > into dual D-box>send the audio side out to the house> using a d-box with through jacks, attach short 1/4" cables from the through jacks on both sides to a small mixer. That mixer serves the drummer with L/R panned. Alternately you could send both the click and the audio out to the house who could then send it back to individual listeners separate. 
 
Being a keys player/guitar player I've toyed with all kinds of ideas. The accompaniment keyboards, even the better ones can sound cheesy. I have successfully used loopers but everything has to be right. Not like playing to a track. I have used laptops as synths on stage. All of that has  risk factors built in that can go wrong if you don't remember everything and do it right  every time. 
 
Showing up and finding out they relocated everything since the last time you were there and you only have 10 minutes to set up doesn't make that any better.
 
If something can go wrong it will go wrong and usually at the worst times. Still lotsa folks successfully doing it. Tech is great when it works, but if you don't have a backup plan things can go downhill fast.
 
Concerning using Sonar. I lean toward mixing tracks down on it and exporting to something I can load into a simpler program/device. That's how I'm thinking right now, but it could change tomorrow. 
 
Most big acts using lappys as backup and Ableton or otherwise have two or more systems identical both running at the same time. If one dies mid show, they simply mix the other one in.

I'll interject that there is 2 way people might work. 
 
1-Backing tracks that follow a set in stone arrangement. ( what I've always have used) 
2- Live music playback that can be manipulated on the fly - that's complicated and not really something Sonar would be good at, other software is recommended so lets stick to #1 if at all possible.  
We can still talk about multi track VS stereo playback, that's cool. 
 
Starise I'm glad you found this here, I was going to post a link on the other thread. 
 
1-One guy who does a lot of one man band gigs is ripping karaoke files with a Youtube downloader, importing them into windows media player and adding the words into it so he has a scrolling teleprompter when he sings.
 
Like I said, we have to maintain our reputation as REAL musicians and that guy might as well leave his guitar at home.  My show has been kept simple because at a certain point you are no longer the source of the music and just a singer / a Karaoke singer. I've been subject to other solo acts while out an about and the best quality ones were when that person was a great singer and guitar player and they carried the show. And it always involve hi quality backing tracks. Some I could tell were downloaded midi and some I've heard were real audio recordings obviously paid for and not home made. But the person spent the time to get a good sound. Many don't and therefore the bad reputation of solo acts. 
 
It seems very few solo performers actually roll there own like me.
 I certainly do take a shortcut these days and if I find a free midi track with good drums I will use it as a starting point. But most of my tracks I have made myself starting in 1984. I have at least 300 midi files I made myself so I'm a bit unique in that way. For me it's personal pride "Yes, I'm a one man band and yes I (mostly) play all the instruments". I keep to max 4 instruments for this reason. Drums, Bass, Piano and Organ. Oh I have one song with a horn part..Ring of Fire. 
 
2. Concerning using Sonar. I lean toward mixing tracks down on it and exporting to something I can load into a simpler program/device. That's how I'm thinking right now, but it could change tomorrow. 
 
Yes smart man. And as you said, complicated set ups are going to fail you at a bad time. I bring 2 fully loaded laptops, My Netbook is my main playback and my old Sony is a backup, background music and for lyrics. 
Personally I don't understand why one would need to bother mixing a multi tracks at the gig? First it would hog a lot of channel strips, second I'd rather do the mixing ahead of time and get it right. And third, as I said, how hard is it to make a good mix of Bass, Piano and drums?  One less thing to go wrong I say. 
 
Hooking things up: 
Well I use both the mini jack and a  $30 Behringer USB interface and there's no difference I can hear at all. 
Playing a stereo wave file is something just about anything can do but I do like using the more solid cables with the Behringer. I also bought a Radial Two Trim for when I do shows via a FOH with a snake. Ultimately we would use a proper audio interface if we go with Multi track for obvious reasons. 
 
May I ask what part of your band do you need to have pre recorded? The Keyboard so you can play guitar? 
 
 

I have a trio which plays in pubs and I make all the backing tracks in Sonar Platinum, including sometimes guitar lead parts so I can duet live with myself, e.g. on "I Saw The Light" and "Hotel California".  I master them in Ozone so they are nice and punchy, mix them down to stereo WAV then import them to iTunes, changing to AAC. I load them to an iPod and set them to individual play, i.e. not continuous, so I select and load them as required, the iPod mounted on my mic stand. They play through the PA along with the three live vocals. (Sometimes we pre-record vocal parts to add extra layers and/or harmonies to go with the live vocals).  It works pretty good and sounds are high quality.  Gear logistics is a lot easier than when I played in a full band, we have a small footprint and less members equals less strife!

Back in the 70's, I played the nightclub/Holiday Inn circuit as a one-man band: Guitar, vocals, Roland Rhythm 77 drum machine, and a left-foot-powered Moog Taurus bass synth. It was five or six sets a night, five nights a week, so it tended to blow out my voice.
 
If I caught a cold and needed to rest my voice during a set, I used a Teac cassette deck with tapes prerecorded with the drum machine and vocal. No count-in, just a short vocal click, and then into the song. I'd play the guitar and bass pedals live.
 
It got me through a few nights. Particularly late at night when my voice was getting raw, and everyone else in the joint was too plastered to notice that I was lip-syncing.
 
The last time I played live was 15 years ago, and I only played out a couple of times. For backup, I used a CD I had burned. One stereo channel was for the backing tracks (drums, bass, keyboards, rhythm guitar, backup vocals) and was directed into the PA, and the other stereo channel was directed into my headphone, and was just the drums with a click count-in so that it was easier to keep time. The monitor mix to my headphone was the drum/click track, plus my live lead vocal, plus a little of my live guitar.
 
I'm thinking of playing live again, possibly with a neighborhood band of players who have only rudimentary musical skills, so I'll be following this thread for more up-to-date ideas (Teac cassette decks? CD's? Cuneiform clay tablets?). Time marches on.

Cactus Music
Tenfoot:
Thanks, I think I've read a few posts of yours about your successful use of the Playlist. I can see why you use multi track output as you must be running to a FOH system with a sound person. That's good information as I keep forgetting how a re mix might be required as you move from room to room. But, I guess I have a problem thinking of any Rock and Roll or Country for that matter that would use more than a few tracks? I guess R&B with a 10 piece horn section :) So You have my curiosity,, what are those 24 tracks? I can see maybe 5 or 7 for drums. A Piano, and organ, after that I'm only pondering. Is this electronic music? 
 

 
Haha - I guess you are right for basic rock and country arangements Cactus. My show for the last couple of years has been reinventions of quirks, classics and casualties from the 70's to the 10's. They tend to be big, ecclectic arrangements involving anything from symphonic scores to Japanese Taiko drums or dance loops and your ten piece horn section. Tons of fun to do though. I do use a FOH engineer at larger gigs, but also have everything down to channel mutes and delay and reverb times automated for smaller onstage mixes. Affordable yet extraordinarily capable digital mixers have really opened up what's possible.  Also a big fan of the Dave Rat breathy squeezy method of parallel compression for live gigs which is only possible with separate returns to the desk and a fistful of compression busses and DCA's. 

I have got a gig right now mixing live a tribute show band and they are using backing tracks.  We have found a good solution.  Firstly we use the DAW at home to produce the backing tracks.  NOT on stage.  I feel you are asking for trouble there.  Reliability is the key live.  The tracks are reduced to a stereo wave file at 44.1K 16 bit files..  (or Mp3 if you like but the wave files do sound better through a big PA) You can premix a backing track rather well in fact if you are careful.
 
We use an app called ShowOne and it runs own an iPad live. Here is the app:
 
http://musicappblog.com/showone-review/
 
You can get it from the app store:
 
https://itunes.apple.com/au/app/showone-pro-backing-tracks/id983764757?mt=8
 
So the drummer in our case is running the app, but anyone can do it in the band.  It has been written by guys who have been using backing tracks for years and have never found the right app for this job. It works great! It is not expensive.
 
So tracks are easily imported then easily found and can be put into sets.  Sets can re arranged at the last minute too easily.  Tracks in a set still stop after each track and not play on.  In order for the click to be used with a stereo track you need a 4 channel output interface.  This one is small, cheap and does the job very well:
 
https://global.novationmusic.com/launch/audiohub-2x4#
 
(Any 4 channel out interface can be used of course but this one is small and very compact and sounds great. 
 
What is cool here is you buy the click add-on and the 4 channel add-on as well which is also cheap.  The click is generated by the app so it does not have to be in the backing track anywhere! (better if the backing track has been done to a click though) Pre count can be set. There is also another cue out or a guy saying 1,2,3,4 which can be set to count a bar before the click even comes in.  This is a great feature.  So you hear the guy saying 1,2,3,4 then the click does the precount and you are away.  The 4 channel interface allows the music and clicks and cues etc to be separate of course.  As the mixer I don't have any clicks or cues coming to me at all, that all goes to the drummer headphones. 
 
A high quality well mixed backing track can seamlessly be mixed in with the band.  It is very hard to tell what is live and what is not the backing etc.
 
This is more a bulletproof solution plus it is much less to carry around and can be set up in a minute. 
 
 
 

Cactus Music
 
1- Plays 4 or more audio tracks -     Only plays 2 
2- Plays midi    - No 
3- Stops at end  - yes 
4- Drag and drop playlist - Not sure but seems possible. 
5- Lyrics ( Txt file)  pop up when song starts.  - No 
6- Control with foot switch.   Not easily
7- built in metronome for click.  - yes  

 
With the exception of drag and drop, Sonar playlist does all of this Cactus. Is there something that you dislike about it?

Johnny sorry to get back  so late. I don't usually make it here on the weekends. 
 
The guy I mentioned in your point 1. is this guy. If you care to watch his over two hour video. He has found a way to do it he is comfortable with. I wouldn't necessarily adopt all of his methods. A few things I really liked were how he can download a whole band, have it in multitrack, and exclude certain tracks to his liking.If he wants a bass player he simply opens that track up in his setup. You can tell he does this all the time and has a system down.
 
https://youtu.be/XfB2EACvCYU
 
He is clearly a guitarist. Has a small *ahem* collection of them. I am primarily a pianist/keyboard player even though I have released an acoustic guitar record. I think sometimes I would like to have a keys part playing and play my guitar on stage more.
 
I really like the way Jeff describes the backing track setup he made and that interface is nice. Though I'm still a PC user, iPad is tough to beat for backing tracks. There are many inexpensive apps for live music backing tracks. A few seem to be using a stereo mix to the house. I have always thought that using anything other than mono is not recommended primarily because of the distance between the channels. You usually loose the image in large venues.
 
I am worship lead at a  church. As such I am usually on a grand piano with a drummer, bass and vocalists.  We are  old school. All floor wedges. No IEM's. Since I'm also lead vocal I usually stay with my strongest instruments so I can sing and play at the same time. When I'm on guitar I can't sing at the same time. I just don't know the instrument as well.I need to concentrate on playing it, unless it's a really simple kind of thing. I wanted to add additional synths and pads to the mixes, maybe extra drums, guitar parts and additional keys parts. 
 
The drawback to acoustic piano is it doesn't have midi. It might be tough convincing the church I need to use an 800.00 keyboard instead of their 30,000 dollar grand piano. The grand sounds better than any keyboard. Might need to midi the grand (if they let me).That's probably cost prohibitive at this point.
 
It's no trouble for me to play the songs into Sonar and add the parts. I played one of our songs into Sonar over the weekend, added some parts to it and it was really easy to do. I'm just not sure I want to fight with a laptop. Here's another idea for something that might work for some people. A kind of interface mixer hybrid product. It plays from an SD card. Has bluetooth if you want to stream music from a cell phone. Has play controls built into it and even a footswitch jack. I'm not sure what the footswitch is for.
 
USB mixer
 
 

Cactus Music
Well I've used my set up since WIndows XP , I've stayed with the same software for playback since day one after testing them all. Win Amp was made by the same folks who made Reaper. It hasn't been updated or touched in 10+ years but runs on W10 still because it was good code. 
 
I have never ever had my system fail me. And I always have a back up. 
My laptops I use for live are optimized and I stay with XP and W7 for stability. 
So your fears are unfounded. A laptop is no more or less reliable than my mixing board. 

That sounds great John, and I am glad that you have experienced such stability.
 
I can only apologise, again, for bringing a touch of negativity to your post. I realise now that I should have kept my thoughts to myself.
 
cheers
 
andy

Once I've mixed a tune I create a "live" mix; pulling the lead vocal and main guitar.
Left goes to the PA mains and right goes to the floor monitors.
I started out (Cake Pro 3.0) mixing to cassette, then CD;
now I drop the tunes on my iPhone and patch that to the PA (that's fun when you get a call mid tune).
Most tunes get a "cue" for the tune's name, key and count in.
Some the Mains will simultaneously have crowd noise, patter, anything to keep the set moving.
Normally when playing out its me (guitar and vocal) and a buddy who plays harmonic and some guitar.
Pretty basic, for what I do actually running the gig with Sonar would be more work than I care to do.
Setting up the PA and my amp is enough at my age
T

Interesting thread.  I sometimes wonder who is using Sonar for backing tracks.  It seems like a minority.  Anyway, I have a history mostly in the 80s of using sequencers to trigger mostly background vocals (on an Akai S900) and some synth parts in an original band.  Used to feed a click track to the drummer to keep everyone in sync.  It had its challenges and a few horror stories.  For instance, one time the band had a big outdoor gig on a bright sunny day. Unfortunately, I never quite anticipated the screen being completely washed out from sunlight on my DX7IIFD which played the sequences.  That wasn't cool.  I used to do a constant shuffling of Akai S900 floppies and loading midi sequences into a DX7II.  Wow, gives me the willies thinking about it.
 
After the 80s, I gave performing a long rest.  But in the last couple years I got re-interested and found that VST synths, amp sims, electronic drums, etc were really happening and latency wasn't much of an issue any more.  And I could build complete backing tracks by myself.  I enjoy building my own backing tracks for just instrumental songs that I think are special and enjoy playing along with on guitar and keyboards.  My method involves creating the drums, bass, and whatever else is needed in a song and that gets mixed down to a stereo audio track.  Then I create the guitar and/or keyboard tracks that I want to play manually as separate instrument tracks.  I use TH3 as my guitar sim and mostly rapture, z3ta, synthmaster one, Syntronik, Hybrid, Xpand, truepianos, etc for VST synths.  Many of my synth patches and automations change on the fly as I'm playing along, all controlled by Sonar.  It took me quite a while to get this working using a combination of MIDIOX and loopbe30 which run in the background.  It works quite reliably but I would upgrade my computer if I ever dared to play live again, which I'm not planning on.  It's just for my own amusement at this time and it's a ton of fun.  
 
One problem I'm having if any one has a solution is:  I'm using Sonar playlists which work ok but since I have automation in all the songs, it always asks me if I want to save the song after playing thru the playlist, which of course I don't.  The problem is, the songs don't unload as I continue on playing thru the playlist and it starts to put a load on memory.

Tom:  Well sounds like you and me would get along. I buy the best equipment I can afford but # 1 is Simplicity. #2 is weight :)  I've just ordered a Voice Live Play Acoustic. I think and I hope it will replace my mixer, my Lexicon MX 200 and for my acoustic gigs, my pedal board. The TC Voice Live, a mike, guitar and 2 powered speakers. Oh and my net book. I'll be in the market for a Voice Live with a built in MP3 player! 
 
Vic:  Another great historical musical document. I have a feeling that this thread will be insights from a lot of us who pioneered midi performance gear.
One thing, I highly recommend you upgrade to at least the latest Home Studio, The new PVR editing speeds things up tremendously for me. If your working with midi your going to want the tools we now have, 100% workflow improvements just in this last year of Sonar. And I could also not live without drum replacer and Melodyn for converting my audio bass and drum tracks to midi. 
 
Craig: Ya I been there in the sunlight were all those little LED screens go blank on you! Makes you realize how much time we spend in the dark. And yet another denizen of the 80's, good stuff. Good heads up on the playlist wanting to save.. Possibly Tenfoot can answer that as that certainly scares me. It's a weird behaviour of Sonar that you can open aproject, hit the space bar and play it, stop and hit close and it askes you to save. It's like it's not happy if the cursor has moved. In one way this is good as it saves your butt but it does get tiresome when your just cruising old projects to see what's there.