The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
Greetings Friends, We're excited to share with you a new change to how we offer phone support that we'll be rolling out on April 11th. No more waiting on hold. If you have a support issue for a currently supported product starting on April 11th you will be able to schedule a day and time for your favorite support rep to call you. Mini-FAQ What is happening to the existing support phone number?It's going away. You'll still be able to call it but instead of a human (or hold music) you'll get a greeting informing you to visit http://www.cakewalk.com/support Why are you doing this?Customer feedback has told us that: a] Waiting on hold sucks b] It is impossible to get a genre of hold music that makes everybody happy c] Our availability is sub-optimal* d] Waiting on hold sucks even more if the rep can't spend quality time with you because there are 35 other people on hold * Starting on the 11th we don't have plans to change available call times just yet however this change does make it possible for us to do that in the future. Staffing support queues is hard to get right - one day we might get 30 calls the next day 300. This change lets us forecast support demand and allows support reps to assist folks over the phone at different times of the day without having to 'open the floodgates' of a queue. Is there any limit to how many calls I can schedule?Yes, you can only schedule one (1) call at a time. If the problem you're experiencing is more complex or requires additional details we'll happily follow-up with either another phone call or over email if we need to collect files from you or send over troubleshooting steps or instructions. What products are supported over the phone?As of today (April 1st, 2016) the following products currently get phone support: - SONAR Platinum with an active membership
- SONAR Professional with an active membership
- SONAR Artist with an active membership
- Music Creator 7
- Dimension Pro
- Rapture Pro
- Z3TA+ 2
Historically we have supported the most recent versions of SONAR and current instruments over the phone. With that in mind, the phone support windows for Z3TA+ 2 and Dimension Pro are sunsetting quickly and will probably not be offered much longer. Both of these will continue to be supported via email. Along with the update for this change your product list on http://www.cakewalk.com/My-Account/Products will include new iconography to indicate which products qualify for phone and email support. Let us know what you think or if you have any questions. Myself and Dean will be watching this thread and I'll try to keep the mini-faq updated.
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 10:58:35
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is this US only? or do you also call back to the old world?
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 11:06:35
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FreeFlyBertl
is this US only? or do you also call back to the old world?
At this time we aren't explicitly preventing international numbers, that is however subject to change. Outside of the US, Cakewalk Support is typically provided by the distributor. Our availability will still be based on US Eastern Time so that might mean staying up late or getting up early depending on how you party if you'd still prefer to work with Cakewalk rather than your local distributor.
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charlyg
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 11:33:42
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I would be willing to bet I will still get many answers here faster. Not complaining at ALL, just a kudo to the forum..
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rtucker55
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 11:45:50
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Being able to call support and work with a tech is a Big Plus for Cakewalk and the Customer.
When I call Support it is because I need to speak with someone Now. I have never been on hold for over a few minutes and I don't mind the little piano background ditty/music while I'm waiting. It gives me time to arrange my data and formulate my questions prior to speaking with the tech.
Many times the tech can help me solve my issue or provide a workaround to keep me working. Other times they will have to elevate it which is when I rarely receive an answer or fix.
The important thing to me is knowing, when I call, I will get to speak with someone within a few minutes and they will either confirm the issue or let me know I need to do more research on my end. I am concerned about this Call Back program as it will catch me off guard and the issue will no longer be foremost in my mind, my system will probably already be turned off and I will be engaged with some other project.
Also, I do Not answer phone calls from unknown numbers unless a voice mail is left stating who's calling, why they are calling, and a phone number is left for me to call them back and there would most likely be other Customers that have this same policy. This now turns your Customers need for tech support into a game of phone tag...
I have not experienced any of the issues listed above from your Customer feedback so I personally struggle with the 'Why' this is happening. I do know that other software vendors that have removed phone support no longer get any of my money or very little of it. I guess I have a general concern that several things have been changing with Cakewalk that just do not feel right so this would just be one more broken straw for me.
Hopefully a little more thought can be put into this process prior to its implementation.
Kind regards,
Rick Tucker
Purrrfect Audio DAW here. Wow!...
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WallyG
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 11:48:32
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charlyg
I would be willing to bet I will still get many answers here faster. Not complaining at ALL, just a kudo to the forum..
I agree there is a wealth of information on this forum. The first thing I do after breakfast is to check the forum and usually pick up some tidbit or if I have a problem with something with Sonar, I ask and I receive. I've called Cakewalk support once and that was to do with an account problem and that was quickly addressed. Walt
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dwardzala
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 12:02:25
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rtucker55, I *think* that the intent of this is you get to schedule your support call - say 10 am on Friday. So if you know that they will call at 10 am you can plan on answering and have your stuff prepped.
Nothing beats instant gratification, and it sounds like you have had extremely good experiences with Cake support, but I think this flexibility is going to make Cake support more efficient and effective.
DaveMain Studio- Core i5 @2.67GHz, 16Gb Ram, (2) 500Gb HDs, (1) 360 Gb HD MotU Ultralite AVB, Axiom 49 Midi Controller, Akai MPD18 Midi Controller Win10 x64 Home Sonar 2017.06 Platinum (and X3e, X2c, X1d) Mobile Studio - Sager NP8677 (i7-6700HQ @2.67MHz, 16G Ram, 250G SSD, 1T HD) M-Box Mini v. 2 Win 10 x64 Home Sonar 2016.10 Platinum Check out my original music: https://soundcloud.com/d-wardzala/sets/d-wardzala-original-music
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bapu
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 12:10:59
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☄ Helpfulby rtucker55 2016/04/01 12:27:31
I'm going to offer 24/7 support via phone for free*
*shipping and handling per call will be $1,749.83.
"I cannot say fairer than that" ~Jonbouy
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Beepster
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 12:10:59
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1) I've never had a problem getting through.
2) I've never felt like the support personnel were rushing to get me off the line. Quite the opposite on some occasions (nice guys).
3) I seriously hope you guys aren't going to completely deny help to those who's memberships have lapsed (within reason).
4) If you guys stayed on top of emails more efficiently there would be far less call volume.
So yeah, this is a good idea IF you still continued to take calls as well.
The suggestion being, keep things as is BUT allow the user to access this callback service if they want. Something like "We are experiencing a high volume of calls at the moment. Press (X) to set up a time for a support representative to call you back."
Removing direct phone support would be yet another move in the wrong direction IMO. I have always relied on phone support due to the fact emails seem far less effective at getting a response. I don't call often but when I do it's important and as mentioned above by rtucker I have all my info ready to go and the problem at the forefront of my mind. Waiting on a callback would not work nearly as well especially considering I usually can't get to the phone very quickly (because I'm a gimp) and generally let it go to voicemail.
Please consider these issues.
Thank you.
PS: ...and I don't like giving out my phone number willy nilly.
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rtucker55
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 12:11:31
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dwardzala
rtucker55, I *think* that the intent of this is you get to schedule your support call - say 10 am on Friday. So if you know that they will call at 10 am you can plan on answering and have your stuff prepped.
Nothing beats instant gratification, and it sounds like you have had extremely good experiences with Cake support, but I think this flexibility is going to make Cake support more efficient and effective.
I guess I did not see the part about being able to schedule a call at some relatively exact time. I don't think it would work that way if Customers are scheduling the tech guy/s to call them as they could all be asking for a call - say 10 am on Friday. I appreciate your positive reply Dave but it is highly unlikely that it will work that way.
Purrrfect Audio DAW here. Wow!...
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bapu
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 12:13:36
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rtucker55
I guess I did not see the part about being able to schedule a call at some relatively exact time.
TL;DR?
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rtucker55
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 12:16:42
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@Bapu You got me? What is TL;DR? - Please excuse me as I'm having a bad hair day...  Just another thought; This entire thread is just a Bad April Fools joke!!! right????
Purrrfect Audio DAW here. Wow!...
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 12:17:55
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☄ Helpfulby rtucker55 2016/04/01 12:37:57
Hi Rick, Thanks for the feedback. rtucker55
I have never been on hold for over a few minutes
I'm glad to hear it, that isn't the same experience for every user and our phone data shows that often hold times surpass what we feel is a reasonable wait time. rtucker55
I am concerned about this Call Back program as it will catch me off guard and the issue will no longer be foremost in my mind, my system will probably already be turned off and I will be engaged with some other project.
The idea is that if a Cakewalk rep calls you back at a time of your choosing that your system and mind will be ready. Again, you the end user gets to pick when Cakewalk will call you. rtucker55
Also, I do Not answer phone calls from unknown numbers unless a voice mail is left stating who's calling, why they are calling, and a phone number is left for me to call them back and there would most likely be other Customers that have this same policy. This now turns your Customers need for tech support into a game of phone tag...
Well for anybody in the US 99% of the time the call will come from 'Cakewalk', be clearly labeled on your caller ID as 'Cakewalk' and be coming in at a time that you chose. The only exceptions to this might be: a) Terrible snow storm makes getting to the office or our VOIP system unreachable and support rep is doing calls from home over skype or google voice. b) You have an international number and for one reason or another the carrier chain doesn't pass on our CallID or we need to make the call via skype or google voice. rtucker55
I do know that other software vendors that have removed phone support no longer get any of my money or very little of it.
I understand the sentiment. To make one thing very clear. Phone support is not going away, we're just changing the way the conversation starts. This change also means that everybody, not just the folks who have time to wait on hold can speak with someone for help. rtucker55
I guess I have a general concern that several things have been changing with Cakewalk that just do not feel right so this would just be one more broken straw for me.
I don't know how to address this other than - we're the same dudes we have always been and software is always changing. Have you considered opening a thread with what specifically is changing that concerns you and maybe the relevant folks from Cakewalk can chime in?
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Beepster
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 12:18:39
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☄ Helpfulby rtucker55 2016/04/01 12:38:44
Too Long; Didn't Read.
AKA: The Beepster Phenomena
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 12:44:46
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Hi Beeps, Thanks for the feedback. Beepster
3) I seriously hope you guys aren't going to completely deny help to those who's memberships have lapsed (within reason).
This is already the policy today - we can't practically support everybody just like we can't support Pro Audio 7 users on Windows 98. That being said we always have been and probably will continue to be pretty flexible with our support policies. Beepster
4) If you guys stayed on top of emails more efficiently there would be far less call volume.
If we stayed on top of emails faster than nobody would be answering the phones ;) It's a bit of a chicken-egg problem and sometimes issues can take longer to resolve over email than they do over the phone. This system will make it easier for a rep to say, 'Hey Beeps - can I call you at 3:15pm so we can work this out' instead of sending 15 emails back and forth. The rep will be able to do this because they'll see their booked calls for the day and know when they have a free slot versus today's model where everything between 1pm and 6pm is blackout because the queues are open. Beepster
So yeah, this is a good idea IF you still continued to take calls as well.
We don't have the resources to do both, but we strongly believe this change will allow us to help more users, in a more timely manner and on a schedule that is more productive for the end user. Beepster
Please consider these issues.
We hear you loud and clear. Is it perfect - probably not? Will there be a few issues? Most likely. But its crazy for us not to try it, since I've been at Cakewalk our available hours of phone support have been cut back year after year (we used to offer phone support from 10am to 8pm). The logistics, reality and costs of US-based phone support are tricky. What is considered a reasonable hold time is drastically different for each person. This model will allows us to help more total users over the phone and have time for reps to respond to emails and follow-up throughout the day (versus just the morning).
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Anderton
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 12:55:14
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☄ Helpfulby dcumpian 2016/04/01 13:54:04
Willy Jones [Cakewalk]
But its crazy for us not to try it, since I've been at Cakewalk our available hours of phone support have been cut back year after year (we used to offer phone support from 10am to 8pm). The logistics, reality and costs of US-based phone support are tricky.
I'm not sure enough people realize this. Cakewalk could always just outsource support overseas to people who can't do much beyond "Please reboot your computer." I see this as Cakewalk making the changes necessary to maintain the quality of support interaction.
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mettelus
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 13:10:47
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There are numerous WiFi-based communication apps that are free anywhere in the world to anyone connected to WiFi. This would require nothing more than a "CW cell phone" to use. It is rather impressive to call anywhere in the world for free and have it ring within 2 seconds... try it out sometime.
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 13:15:52
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mettelus
There are numerous WiFi-based communication apps that are free anywhere in the world to anyone connected to WiFi. This would require nothing more than a "CW cell phone" to use. It is rather impressive to call anywhere in the world for free and have it ring within 2 seconds... try it out sometime.
Requiring a user to install skype or use google hangouts for support isn't something we're opposed to its just not something we're doing this month.
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AllanH
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 13:23:40
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Willy Jones [Cakewalk]
Greetings Friends,...
Historically we have supported the most recent versions of SONAR and current instruments over the phone. With that in mind, the phone support windows for Z3TA+ 2 and Dimension Pro are sunsetting quickly and will probably not be offered much longer. Both of these will continue to be supported via email.
This makes a lot of sense. I would suggest you announced End-of-life of your products, so we all can plan accordingly, and place it prominently somewhere on the web site. For instance, a recent/current promo include Z3TA+2 along with RapPro. I think it's only fair to announce somewhere public when you plan to sunset as I would think active promotion would imply active support.
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Beepster
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 13:25:28
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Thanks for the reply, Willie but I feel like this is going to be another one of those things where it's just going to happen no matter what gets said.
This process seems to create more hassle for the user and only benefits Cake/Gibson (but is being presented as a positive).
As I said, I've never had a problem getting through. At most maybe 5 minutes on hold (usually 2 minutes). If it got to be more than that I would simply call another time. Of course I know better than to call on major release days.
So I get all my info together (S/N, reg, etc which are all stashed in a special place), type up a checklist of everything I need to discuss, make sure I've got a free half hour to call, wait, talk, type up/process/enact the results, put all my papers away and move on.
With this I'd have to take the time to log into my account (which I only do from my DAW... which is otherwise offline so I have to set all that crap up too), set up the call (which I'm assuming will require me getting together all my usual info and will take almost as long as just getting the call through and an answer) then hope nothing else comes up at the callback time, set myself back up again and wait by the phone for the callback.
It's a two step process and in the meantime I've got to keep all my ducks lined up/papers out/thought process on the query instead of on all the other wacky stuff I need to think about and so on. I also generally call IMMEDIATELY when support opens because I don't like dealing with tech crap later in the day (I'm usually doing other stuff by then and even 1pm is getting late for me as an ESTer).
It seems to me this could turn out the way emails have. As in... "We'll get to it whenever we get to it.... if we get to it." Hopefully not.
It should also be noted I'm one of the ones who, if the question is complex, I'd submit a support ticket number with details (system, version, problem, etc), call and then reference that number so the tech staff can have all the info on screen for the call. I've only had to do that twice because most of my questions are really quick fixes and account related.
My point is the current system has worked extremely well for me and has been a major bonus of being a Cake customer. I swear it's always been a very pleasant "In and Out" experience for me. What is being presented is absolutely NOT how I want to deal with problems. It is much more complex and inconvenient to me than just calling and waiting on hold for a while.
As for not answering emails... weeeell, I don't even know what to say to that. Might as well just not offer email support if that's the case. It's very frustrating composing and sending a support request and having it ignored.
I realize I'm probably getting a rep as a crank around here lately (which is partially why I'm not around much anymore) but seriously... this strikes me as a downgrade in service. Not an improvement.
Sorry.
I'll go be cranky somewhere else now.
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mettelus
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 13:25:59
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It would not be a requirement (that just causes grief), but rather an option for international users. Skype and Google Hangouts specifically would fall toward the bottom of preferred choices IMO; there are several others highly rated and used professionally.
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Beepster
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 13:32:04
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PS: I call from Canada and eat the long distance (I think). Are you guys going to call me back long distance (if your plan doesn't cover Canada) or am I going to be forced to go through less knowledgeable distributors?
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 14:00:31
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Hi Allan, AllanH
This makes a lot of sense. I would suggest you announced End-of-life of your products, so we all can plan accordingly, and place it prominently somewhere on the web site.
Thanks for the feedback. This is in the near-term plan once all the dust settles and everything is going smoothly. Right now we're intentionally being a little loose and flexible until all the kinks are worked out, once that is done we'll make it more clear on both the products and support sections of our site.
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tenfoot
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 14:21:39
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Willy Jones [Cakewalk]
At this time we aren't explicitly preventing international numbers, that is however subject to change. Outside of the US, Cakewalk Support is typically provided by the distributor
This is pretty funny Willy - at least if you live in Australia. If you go to the distributor's website: 1. There is no mention of Cakewalk at all. 2. If you click on the contact button it says 'you are not authorised to access this resource'. 3.On the very outside chance someone there actually knew something about Sonar, why would they offer support when since Sonar 5 I have purchased direct from CW? Surely local distribution and support of software is pretty much ancient history. I haven't ever used telephone support, so I guess its pretty unlikely I ever will - but it is a very good thing that you are not excluding International callers for anyone that does. Probably wise to check out your international distributor's services before you hand all support over to them. http://www.gibsonami.com/...t_id=36&Itemid=118
Bruce. Sonar Platinum 2017-09, Studio One 3.5.3, Win 10 x64, Quad core i7, RME Fireface, Behringer X32 Producer, Behringer X32 Rack, Presonus Faderport, Lemure Software Controller (Android), Enttec DMXIS VST lighting controller, Xtempo POK.
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 14:22:18
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Hi Beepster, Beepster
Thanks for the reply, Willie but I feel like this is going to be another one of those things where it's just going to happen no matter what gets said.
This process seems to create more hassle for the user and only benefits Cake/Gibson (but is being presented as a positive).
I'm not one to sugar coat things. I'm being blatantly honest about these changes. We totally recognize that not everybody will love this and understanding why folks don't like it will only help us make it better. From a support standpoint - yes it offers a lot of benefits to Cakewalk. (Not sure what you're inferring by Gibson nobody in Nashville does SONAR support ...) - When the rep calls we'll know what your problem is and be ready to dive right in without wasting anytime asking you to try things you already did - we do still retain the rights to ask about your latest projects, adventures with plugin X or what beer you're currently drinking.
- We'll have all of your information up and ready before we call, even less time wasted.
- If a rep has a dentist appointment at 2:30 PM, hold times won't blow up.
I'd actually like to walk through your process if you don't mind because I think its a great example of how this might fit into your current routine. Beepster
So I get all my info together (S/N, reg, etc which are all stashed in a special place)
You can skip this step now - just log right in (do it on the same computer you're using for the forum). Beepster
type up a checklist of everything I need to discuss,
Great that means more time for you guys to just hangout on the call and talk about phish tunes (assuming you like to work with Joe or Joey) - I guess metal tunes for Phil ;) Just type your checklist right into our website or copy and paste it in. I didn't mention it in the OP but you do get the option to pick a specific support rep if there is somebody you have a history/fellowship/shared affinity for crunchy phish grooves with. Beepster
make sure I've got a free half hour to call
Just pick the available time that works best for you. Beepster
wait
You may now omit this step and go on with your day. Beepster
talk, type up/process/enact the results, put all my papers away and move on.
You can still do all this and we'll also email you the resolution and steps we took so you'll have it for your records. Beepster
I also generally call IMMEDIATELY when support opens because I don't like dealing with tech crap later in the day
Great once we get the basics sorted out as I stated earlier we have every intention of offering phone support times at hours earlier in the day. Beepster
It seems to me this could turn out the way emails have. As in... "We'll get to it whenever we get to it.... if we get to it."
There is no double-booking. You pick the day and time (and optionally the rep) and that is when you will get called back. We won't make times available that a human isn't available to call you back. Beepster
My point is the current system has worked extremely well for me and has been a major bonus of being a Cake customer. I swear it's always been a very pleasant "In and Out" experience for me. What is being presented is absolutely NOT how I want to deal with problems. It is much more complex and inconvenient to me than just calling and waiting on hold for a while.
I realize I'm probably getting a rep as a crank around here lately (which is partially why I'm not around much anymore) but seriously... this strikes me as a downgrade in service. Not an improvement.
It's a change sure, but we can't pass up the opportunity to offer more support to more users for the same level of spend. We owe it to ourselves to at least try it. If it fails miserably then we'll try something else. But bear with us, help us find the kinks and give it a shot. For the process you just described (I'm sure support really appreciates your thoroughness before picking up the phone) I think it would work very well for you and might even improve your support experience if we can call you in earlier in the day.
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 14:24:42
(permalink)
Beepster
PS: I call from Canada and eat the long distance (I think). Are you guys going to call me back long distance (if your plan doesn't cover Canada) or am I going to be forced to go through less knowledgeable distributors?
Yes we'll call you back long distance - not sure what wasn't clear about that before.
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 14:28:34
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Hi Bruce, tenfoot
This is pretty funny Willy - at least if you live in Australia.
I'm not involved in the distribution arrangements, but thanks for sharing this. I'll send it to the right people to find out what the story is.
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 14:42:24
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☄ Helpfulby rtucker55 2016/04/01 15:08:35
rtucker55
I guess I did not see the part about being able to schedule a call at some relatively exact time. I don't think it would work that way if Customers are scheduling the tech guy/s to call them as they could all be asking for a call - say 10 am on Friday. I appreciate your positive reply Dave but it is highly unlikely that it will work that way.
That is actually exactly how it will work and I guess I did a poor job of explaining that part - here is a screenshot of the current work in progress to give you an idea of what the web page would look like. These are fictional call times that I just generated, not representative of actual times that may be available starting on the 11th. 
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rtucker55
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 15:00:54
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Willy Jones [Cakewalk]
rtucker55
I guess I did not see the part about being able to schedule a call at some relatively exact time. I don't think it would work that way if Customers are scheduling the tech guy/s to call them as they could all be asking for a call - say 10 am on Friday. I appreciate your positive reply Dave but it is highly unlikely that it will work that way.
That is actually exactly how it will work and I guess I did a poor job of explaining that part - here is a screenshot of the current work in progress to give you an idea of what the web page would look like. These are fictional call times that I just generated, not representative of actual times that may be available starting on the 11th.
Thanks for pointing this out Willy. Hopefully it will become a more efficient and effective process. Craig made a good point earlier in the thread about if it was outsourced, That would be a total disaster. Cakewalk Customers are very fortunate that we have Knowledgeable tech people to deal with when we need help. Kind regards, Rick
Purrrfect Audio DAW here. Wow!...
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Notecrusher
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Re: The wait is over. Cakewalk offering callback support starting April 11th
2016/04/01 21:20:20
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Willy Jones [Cakewalk]
Beepster
3) I seriously hope you guys aren't going to completely deny help to those who's memberships have lapsed (within reason).
This is already the policy today - we can't practically support everybody just like we can't support Pro Audio 7 users on Windows 98. That being said we always have been and probably will continue to be pretty flexible with our support policies.
I certainly hope Cakewalk will be "flexible". Supporting twenty year old programs is one thing. Supporting the CURRENT program for users who paid for it and own it, but do not wish to purchase a new subscription is quite another.
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