Lunatique


I don't know if most people here know Theodor Kruger. He's a composer and he's the fastest pianoroll composer I've ever seen. Watching one of his real-time composing videos makes my head spin. Although his musicianship is part of the equation, he's simply fast as well. Here are a couple of his real-time composing videos using the Sonar 4's pianoroll:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w3e15IcoCY

You think Theodor Krueger is fast? You should see his cousin Freddy Krueger, now talk about sharp finger work!
 

 
I know, I know! This post is a month old, but I couldn't resist!

Lunatique

jm24


I found these vids yesterday attempting to find some tutorials about the PRV.
(and started a new thread)

Most of the tutorials I can find created by CW dudes are quick overviews.

And none for the PRV.  WHY?? Given all the changes with SX I expected a slew of clear tutorials and videos.  Where are they????

And what is most disturbing is Mr Perstein responds with the defensive-offensiveness we have been assailed with for the past three months.

A good PR person needs to be hired by CW.

The correct response here is: 
1: demonstrating to all of us USERS how we can work as fast as Theodor Kruger does with the latest and greatest Sonar tools

2: immediately contact and hire Theodor Kruger,
send him a copy of SX pro,
address his concerns about the newer stuff interfering with actual work,
and have him create some GREAT, DETAILED tutorials.

But NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

What we get is another angry response about how we do not appreciate what all has been added, and hidden, making actions require more clicks, and diverted attention,....

Thank the Gods for Youtube.

J

I think pretty much everyone in this thread agrees. If Cakewalk faced their users with a bit more humility, they'd do much better. Some developers see their user base as a blessing, while others see them as a bunch of whiny, greedy bastards. How you interface with your user base and how you see them makes a world of difference. Why the hell Cakewalk didn't immediately contact Theodor Kruger and try to benefit from his talent and ability to amaze fellow musicians and Sonar users is beyond me. We the users can see it so clearly, and if Cakewalk was our company, that's what we'd do, but nope, the personalities at Cakewalk is not quite like the rest of us I suppose. Instead of seeing an opportunity, they see a threat, and they get offended, and they lash out. Not a good way to present the face of a company to your users. Remember, companies don't just make products and sell them, they must also foster a company culture, and a relationship with its customers. Too many companies suck at the last bit, because they don't have strict rules in how their employees should interact with the customers. If I was the boss, I'd have a strict rule where under no circumstances, should an employee of my company EVER use a hard attitude, no matter what the excuse is (unless he/she was physically assaulted). You put on your kind, fair, and friendly diplomat hat and keep it on until you are fired or you quit the job, period. I don't care how good of a musician you are or how well you know my software--if you can't win over my customers with a great attitude, then you need to work behind the scenes and NEVER interface with my customers.

Unfortunately, over the years, I have seen lots of cases where the people that are employed by companies are just not suited to PR, yet they are tasked with it. The problem is that they need people who are knowledgeable about their software, and are also musicians, yet we all know that musicians are some of the most difficult people in the creative realm--even more so than most writers, visual artists, directors, photographers...etc. Musicians have always been the most egotistical as well as the most irreverent, all due to the rockstar attitude that comes with modern music. So what happens is that musicians are asked to do PR work, and they can't help but let their attitude take over. Sometimes that's a good thing, because the users are musicians too, so we can relate to one another, but other times, we will clash.

IMO, the minute you take on the responsibility of being the face of an organization/institution/brand/movement, you lose much of your right to be 100% yourself, because you now have to put the welfare and reputation of what you represent before yourself. I've seen too many developers screw up on this front--just to go KVRAudio.com's developer's forum and you'll see glaring cases where attitude is thrown around and users end up getting alienated and offended. Some even outright cuss out the users.

I've been a moderator at forums, and I'm currently a moderator at the largest CG community on the planet, and the minute I accepted that responsibility, I put on my diplomat hat and never again completely said what's on my mind--I always filter them through careful thought, with a friendly, helpful, and positive attitude, no matter how rude the person is. You will get far more with honey than you ever would with a defensive, hard attitude.

In every single case, developers that exhibit humility and a big heart always win over the users, and the users will remain totally loyal to them. Go to V.I. Control or KVRAudio and search for Eric Persing's posts. He is one of the main reasons why Spectrasonics is loved as a company. He is a great model of what the public face of a pro audio company should be.

I am not sure how you are coming up with the conclusion that he(Seth) was in any way rude.  You also need to take into account the date of this thread and the fact there was near guerrilla warfare going on in the forum at that time, in many cases led or instigated or fueled by Mike Mc. 

The point he was trying to make, I believe, is that  Mr. Krueger is a very talented individual demonstrating how he uses the tools that are available in most DAWs.  He noted that the quality of the Video was not up to the level that Cakewalk would use for distribution as an educational video(and rightly so after seeing some of the criticism for seemingly minor issues on the Videos they have produced).   Mr. Kruegers demonstration is an exhibition of musical creativity, mastery of composition and elegant orchestration.   I was aware of and have used multiple tracks in PRV but I could never do what he is doing with regard to the thinking of multiple instruments on the fly.  I need to hear what one instrument is doing and then think of what will sound good with this.  Being able to write all instruments in a nearly bar by bar manner is an incredible talent.  I'm sure there are many others on the forum who are capable of this type of composition.  I am not one of them.

One of Seth's other posts dealt with the indication that the Step Sequencer was termed a "toy".  He simply disagreed and pointed out the usefulness/power of the tool. The disagreement was about the method of use of PRV vs SS.  The rest of the disagreement was more of a philosophical/methodological nature which was not going to be resolved regardless of how much input could have been brought to the table.

I believe that the staff has demonstrated excellent diplomacy in light of the abuse that they have taken over the last few weeks.  I commend them for their willingness to continue to participate and assist in the forum, as they always have, in spite of all the negativity and insults that have been hurled in their direction. 

Thank yous go to the staff for their continuing contributions here.

>>I am not sure how you are coming up with the conclusion that he(Seth) was in any way rude.  You also need to take into account the date of this thread and the fact there was near guerrilla warfare going on in the forum at that time, in many cases led or instigated or fueled by Mike Mc. 
<< 
 
You do not get it.  It does not matter what the users/customers are saying, the company spokespersons are not to be offensive, nor defensive.
 
And you, as they have, are blaming the users for voicing their legitimate criticisms and complaints.
 
Have we raised our voices? Yes. Righteously so. For many of us have given dollars and vocal support to the company for many years and we are disappointed with the current product and the way our comments have been received.
 
The transition to Sonar X1 has not been handled well by the CW managers: A beta release, little support provided for our changing,....
 
And where is the long, detailed, descriptive tutorials for each of Sonar's views. Especially the Piano Roll.  I would like to learn a bunch about this but I should not have to stumble about to do so.
 
What is just downright weird is how we are expected to know how to use the program, and we are given little bits about the new stuff, and yet when we ask about how to do things, and we suggest how CW could do better, we are told our concerns and suggestions are irrelevant. (love it or leave it.)
 
Look at the bug-fix-list. Almost ALL of those items are directly related to the changes put in place with SX. Yet changes and fixes many of us have asked for for years still have not been fixed.
 
AND many of the new features are not clearly explained or demonstrated by CW personnel.
 
Why is it a SX tutorial/video, created by CW, does not exist that clearly, with excruciating detail, explains the PRV, and all its tools, with respect to the abilities demonstrated by Theodor Krueger?
 
Why do we have to discover, by accident, such information via YouTube?
 
Most of the CW videos, artist profiles, etc., are interesting, some useful. Few are as inspiring as Theodor Krueger's vids. 
 
I will be installing Sonar 4 tonight so I will not be distracted by all the "useful" new tools added since then, that would have to be disabled, modified, ignored and worked-around.
 
This is a good reason to NOT ever uninstall previous versions.
 
J

jm24


>>I am not sure how you are coming up with the conclusion that he(Seth) was in any way rude.  You also need to take into account the date of this thread and the fact there was near guerrilla warfare going on in the forum at that time, in many cases led or instigated or fueled by Mike Mc. 
<< 
 
You do not get it.  It does not matter what the users/customers are saying, the company spokespersons are not to be offensive, nor defensive

 

Firstly I do not think he was offensive.  Secondly, I would expect him to defend his product which most definitely is not a toy.  Do you think he should not defend his product under those circumstances?

    And where is the long, detailed, descriptive tutorials for each of Sonar's views. Especially the Piano Roll.  I would like     to learn a bunch about this but I should not have to stumble about to do so.
    What is just downright weird is how we are expected to know how to use the program, and we are given little bits about the new stuff, and yet when we ask about how to do things, and we suggest how CW could do better, we are told our concerns and suggestions are irrelevant. (love it or leave it.          
 
Hit the help button and review the short cut list.  About the only thing that you can not do is the method of controller curve drawing in steps that he describes(at least as far as I have been able to determine).  The other function I would like to see returned is the last note clicked is current note info. There is also an issue with not being able to turn off the handles in X1, but this will likely be addressed in X1b.  There are no handles on the velocity so that is not an issue.  All the rest of what he is doing can be accomplished(and I would say more easily now) with the Smart tool.  All the other functions are either described in the short cuts listed there or in the full manual.   I can understand why Mr Krueger would not want to change as he would have now reached the point in using the tools in the same fashion for so long that he can do it without even thinking.   However, if you have not been doing things on that level, or even been aware that you could you have a better, more user friendly tool kit with X1.  However all the things he is doing in the Video, other than indicated above, are all readily available functions in X1. 

The other resource that will soon be available is the Power Book from Scott G which will provide a bunch more tips and tricks that we can use. 


The rest of your post is you defending your right to be angry and I will not get into a debate about that.   There has been enough of that hashed out in every thread for the last 3 months.  Yes there are problems.  Hopefully X1b will solve the majority of them.

mike_mccue


Jeff,

Did Beethoven and Mozart play every part into their scores?

Or did they just write some of it down on the staff?

Also did you see the guitar video where he seems keenly aware of the humanized articulations?

I think this guys is using Cakewalk as a Sequencer in exactly the manner I imagined it was meant to be used when I first bought Pro Audio.

I admire the fact that he can do it so quickly without snap to scale. I use snap to scale and, honestly, use composing multi parts in PRV as a learning experience... but I'm just a hack guitar player with minimal keyboard education.

best regards,
mike

Great Point Mike +1

dreamkeeper

How about a great long PRV video tutorial (build a song from the git) with clear explanations and repetitions so we all can learn how to use this great program instead of each of us spending way too much time discovering it is best to disable a particular thing to do what we want.

How about you develop your own techniques instead of feeling entitled to get it all spoon-fed to you?

I guess some people need a detailed tutorial on how to take a dump, and another one about how to clean their ass afterwards. Of course they'll also complain that  nobody told them before to buy toilet paper...

I would also like to see a 'how to' video on how to " build a song from the git," just so I can learn some techniques I might not already know.

And dream, I already got my detailed tutorial on how to take a dump and clean my ass afterwards - from my mother and father - they made me video - where did you learn?

Oh and dream if you ever have a question about a technique you don't know how to accomplish, please don't post here for advice, you're not entitled to be spoon fed that information.

Spoon feeding can be fun.

In general DreamKeeper you are an idiot.   How do most humans learn societal stuff? By example and instruction.

And for about 6 years your parents were wiping your but, and face, and brushing your teeth, and dressing you,....  And cooking your food.  

I indicated I would pay.  But finding such quality instruction is not simple.

And it is in CW's best interest to provide as much instruction as is possible to increase the PR value of its products.  The last 30 years have seen hundreds of companies die because they did not properly explain how to use their amazing software, expecting their customers to not be spoon fed.

Oh, are your unders free of skid marks?  Or are you still learning?  As you should be.

Do you open the cans of peas and corn yourself yet?

J

Lunatique

jm24


I found these vids yesterday attempting to find some tutorials about the PRV.
(and started a new thread)

Most of the tutorials I can find created by CW dudes are quick overviews.

And none for the PRV.  WHY?? Given all the changes with SX I expected a slew of clear tutorials and videos.  Where are they????

And what is most disturbing is Mr Perstein responds with the defensive-offensiveness we have been assailed with for the past three months.

A good PR person needs to be hired by CW.

The correct response here is: 
1: demonstrating to all of us USERS how we can work as fast as Theodor Kruger does with the latest and greatest Sonar tools

2: immediately contact and hire Theodor Kruger,
send him a copy of SX pro,
address his concerns about the newer stuff interfering with actual work,
and have him create some GREAT, DETAILED tutorials.

But NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

What we get is another angry response about how we do not appreciate what all has been added, and hidden, making actions require more clicks, and diverted attention,....

Thank the Gods for Youtube.

J

I think pretty much everyone in this thread agrees. If Cakewalk faced their users with a bit more humility, they'd do much better. Some developers see their user base as a blessing, while others see them as a bunch of whiny, greedy bastards. How you interface with your user base and how you see them makes a world of difference. Why the hell Cakewalk didn't immediately contact Theodor Kruger and try to benefit from his talent and ability to amaze fellow musicians and Sonar users is beyond me. We the users can see it so clearly, and if Cakewalk was our company, that's what we'd do, but nope, the personalities at Cakewalk is not quite like the rest of us I suppose. Instead of seeing an opportunity, they see a threat, and they get offended, and they lash out. Not a good way to present the face of a company to your users. Remember, companies don't just make products and sell them, they must also foster a company culture, and a relationship with its customers. Too many companies suck at the last bit, because they don't have strict rules in how their employees should interact with the customers. If I was the boss, I'd have a strict rule where under no circumstances, should an employee of my company EVER use a hard attitude, no matter what the excuse is (unless he/she was physically assaulted). You put on your kind, fair, and friendly diplomat hat and keep it on until you are fired or you quit the job, period. I don't care how good of a musician you are or how well you know my software--if you can't win over my customers with a great attitude, then you need to work behind the scenes and NEVER interface with my customers.

Unfortunately, over the years, I have seen lots of cases where the people that are employed by companies are just not suited to PR, yet they are tasked with it. The problem is that they need people who are knowledgeable about their software, and are also musicians, yet we all know that musicians are some of the most difficult people in the creative realm--even more so than most writers, visual artists, directors, photographers...etc. Musicians have always been the most egotistical as well as the most irreverent, all due to the rockstar attitude that comes with modern music. So what happens is that musicians are asked to do PR work, and they can't help but let their attitude take over. Sometimes that's a good thing, because the users are musicians too, so we can relate to one another, but other times, we will clash.

IMO, the minute you take on the responsibility of being the face of an organization/institution/brand/movement, you lose much of your right to be 100% yourself, because you now have to put the welfare and reputation of what you represent before yourself. I've seen too many developers screw up on this front--just to go KVRAudio.com's developer's forum and you'll see glaring cases where attitude is thrown around and users end up getting alienated and offended. Some even outright cuss out the users.

I've been a moderator at forums, and I'm currently a moderator at the largest CG community on the planet, and the minute I accepted that responsibility, I put on my diplomat hat and never again completely said what's on my mind--I always filter them through careful thought, with a friendly, helpful, and positive attitude, no matter how rude the person is. You will get far more with honey than you ever would with a defensive, hard attitude.

In every single case, developers that exhibit humility and a big heart always win over the users, and the users will remain totally loyal to them. Go to V.I. Control or KVRAudio and search for Eric Persing's posts. He is one of the main reasons why Spectrasonics is loved as a company. He is a great model of what the public face of a pro audio company should be.

+1 Theo puts alot of work into these videos to help others, not benafit himself. Anyone doing alot of midi work is going to benafit from watching a couple of his videos more than anything Cakewalk have produced for midi; for the latest versions of the software anyway. People learn through real world examples - these show alot more potential than learning to add drums from a step sequencer, which while is valuable, is still very limited in tems of potential application compared to advanced PRV usage.

As for Seth's comment about being able to do this in any DAW - he is not doing it in 'any DAW' he is doing it in the product you are meant to be promoting, and doing it in a way that specifically promotes said product. He even has tutorial videos expalining workflow in previous versions; for on the fly composing like he is doing no other DAW comes close. I am sure it would have been hard for you guys to say "Yes, Theos videos are great and really show how efficiently the Piano roll can be used" but that would backfire with the fact this workflow is no longer available and trying to do this in X1 is a headache.


I don't mean to sound too negative, I love some of the recent PM released (video game composer stuff is awesome), but please don't forget the value of your userbase. This used to be one of the most pleasent audio forums online before X1 was released. I don't think Cakewalk will make the same mistakes again, though they likely did those knowing this would happen, so hopefully the future is going to be a little brighter. :)

Kroneborge

dreamkeeper

How about a great long PRV video tutorial (build a song from the git) with clear explanations and repetitions so we all can learn how to use this great program instead of each of us spending way too much time discovering it is best to disable a particular thing to do what we want.

How about you develop your own techniques instead of feeling entitled to get it all spoon-fed to you?

I guess some people need a detailed tutorial on how to take a dump, and another one about how to clean their ass afterwards. Of course they'll also complain that  nobody told them before to buy toilet paper...

Totally wrong, and abusive besides.

Also reported.

You feel better now? You're welcome!

Kroneborge


Yes much better.   There's enough acrimony because of X1, we don't need to add too it by insulting people that would like to learn the tools which they bought.

Nothing wrong with learning - or asking for the matter. It's the demanding attitude which I'm tired of.

Lunatique


I don't know if most people here know Theodor Kruger. He's a composer and he's the fastest pianoroll composer I've ever seen. Watching one of his real-time composing videos makes my head spin. Although his musicianship is part of the equation, he's simply fast as well. Here are a couple of his real-time composing videos using the Sonar 4's pianoroll:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w3e15IcoCY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL7sLUdtAwY

I had always wondered why he stuck with Sonar 4 after all these years, and he explained it in the comments section in this Sonar pianoroll tutorial video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRVfdrXjrrg

I think he raises some excellent points, and I was wondering if anyone else around here agree with him? Could we think of ways to optimize X1 for speedier pianoroll composing?

To go back to original poster question...


...Yes, Milady....

...I believe the only REAL, EFFECTIVE way to optimize X1's PRV would be putting "Tools" BACK where they used to be up to version 8.5...


I stated that in (now) many different threads, X1 has too many "hidden" features, with Piano Roll View being possibly the most evidently impoverished environment...


The previous one was a huge powerhouse, where almost ANY midi editing tool was available at sight..................................

We need SOME of the things we had in 8.5 BACK... SOON please....

My best regards.

Does anyone have these videos. All I get is a message saying the videos are not available because the user closed their account.
Bummer.

Juien

Yeah, but his were free ... :(

You can try to contact him on his web site. I think this is the same guy ...

http://www.theodorkrueger.com/home.htm

I asked him about the closed account a couple of months ago, and this was his reply (I don't he would mind me posting it here):

"Hi Rob,

I had a problem with my e-mail account and after not being able to sign in to my mail or my facebook I found it best to delete my channel in case someone had the pass and was already changing my login. I've heard it happening before so I took a hasty decision and deleted some accounts thinking it was for the best. I will be uploading more videos in the future, but they will probably be more of my music tracks since I want to keep a more musical character on my new channel.

Thanks for writing, good to hear from you!

Theo"

Wow! I am so glad you found them - I was SO bummed when the original links went dead!