Lunatique
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Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
I don't know if most people here know Theodor Kruger. He's a composer and he's the fastest pianoroll composer I've ever seen. Watching one of his real-time composing videos makes my head spin. Although his musicianship is part of the equation, he's simply fast as well. Here are a couple of his real-time composing videos using the Sonar 4's pianoroll: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w3e15IcoCY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL7sLUdtAwY I had always wondered why he stuck with Sonar 4 after all these years, and he explained it in the comments section in this Sonar pianoroll tutorial video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRVfdrXjrrg I think he raises some excellent points, and I was wondering if anyone else around here agree with him? Could we think of ways to optimize X1 for speedier pianoroll composing?
post edited by Lunatique - 2011/02/06 03:54:11
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HumbleNoise
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/06 08:11:08
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Humbly Yours Larry Sonar X2 x64 MAudio 2496 Yamaha MG 12/4 Roland XV-88 Intel MB with Q6600 and 4 GB Ram NVidia 9800 GTX Windows 7 x64 Home Premium
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twisted6s
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/06 08:21:55
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Lunatique
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 10:24:39
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No one has more thoughts regarding this issue? Does this mean most of you don't use the pianoroll that much? I rely heavily on the pianoroll for my compositions, so this subject is dear and close to my heart.
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codamedia
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 11:02:22
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I wish I could express some thoughts, but I'm not a piano roll person myself. This post certainly opened my eyes at what can be done with it. Absolutely impressive.
I too would be very interested in hearing from the PR people here. I know there are a lot of them, but I also understand that X1 has them a little ticked off at the moment (snap, tools, lassoo, etc...). Hopefully someone will chime in.
Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take!
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derFunkenstein
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 11:10:18
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Wow, that's ridiculously cool. I always wondered why people thought editing multiple MIDI tracks on one PRV was such an important feature and now I get why.
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brundlefly
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 12:41:26
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Pretty impressive. A couple of thoughts:
The thing he mentioned in one response post about later versions having controller handles that interfere with editing controller values is mistaken, I think. First, it doesn't apply to velocity, and second, it can be turned off for other controllers in the Show/Hide MIDI Events dropdown.
And I'm not sure what he meant about color overlays adding up and higher CPU usage in later versions, but with clip colors being adjustable, I wouldn't think that would be a big issue. Plus later versions have other MIDI editing enhancements that I would think could only help.
It seems that some of his concerns are just garden-variety resistance to change, but I'd be interested to see his take on X1, which is a whole new ballgame in the PRV.
Later in the first video, I was surprised to see him mention turning off snap when drawing in the tempo view to get "more fluid" changes. There is no value in having more than one tempo change between note events. Extra changes will affect the net "transit" time between notes, but there is always a single tempo that will give you that same time.
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lallis
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 12:45:31
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codamedia
I wish I could express some thoughts, but I'm not a piano roll person myself. This post certainly opened my eyes at what can be done with it. Absolutely impressive.
Your avatar with the guitar explains the gap. As a piano player, I live in the piano roll naturally, and that's just the way it goes. Piano rolls are for MIDI and the great run of guitar players don't benefit from it on their primary instrument. Guitarists were not in fact even interested in sequencers until they became audio recording programs. Therefore, they sat out the initial development of the piano roll entirely. They didn't need it then, and they still don't. Theo Krüger really is an expert, but he's just doing what piano rolls do. Some of us can't think fast enough about orchestration to work as swiftly as he does, and that is our limiting factor. It's not the lack of Smart Tools or an inability to get 4 tracks onto a screen that holds me back. The piano roll in Sonar 4 was already good enough. So maybe there's just less to be said than you think at first.
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codamedia
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 13:13:04
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lallis Guitarists were not in fact even interested in sequencers until they became audio recording programs. Therefore, they sat out the initial development of the piano roll entirely.
How true that is! Although keyboards, sequencers and midi have been a part of my toolkit since the mid 80's, I still thought of MIDI as recording, not composing. I tend to arm a midi track and record my part. If I don't get it right, I record it again - LOL! This post opened my eyes to the PRV and it's abilities. Time to start learning it, and using it to my advantage!
Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take!
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lallis
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 13:25:36
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codamedia
This post opened my eyes to the PRV and it's abilities.
It really is a productive post, isn't it? It got me to thinking about Progress, and how to know when you've had enough of it. So thank you, Lunatique.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 14:40:13
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These are really inspiring videos.
It sort of reinforces my opinion that step sequencer is a toy and that PRV is the real step sequencer.
I know I should know... but I don't... how is he switching between voices so quickly?
Thanks for the links... these will be high priority viewing for a while.
best regards,
mike
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 14:43:45
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brundlefly
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 14:45:21
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how is he switching between voices so quickly? He has multiple tracks open in the PRV, and is clicking in the Track Manager Pane to switch between them.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 14:46:58
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I watched and never saw the cursor over there... must have missed it. I thought maybe there was some hot key I was missing.
Thanks.
best regards,
mike
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 14:47:41
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mike_mccue
These are really inspiring videos.
It sort of reinforces my opinion that step sequencer is a toy and that PRV is the real step sequencer.
I know I should know... but I don't... how is he switching between voices so quickly?
Thanks for the links... these will be high priority viewing for a while.
best regards,
mike
While I won't disagree that the PRV is powerful, I would disagree that the Step Sequencer is a toy. The Step Sequencer is for writing drum/ percussion parts, not for writing orchestral parts as in the video. For some types of music using the PRV to write in drum parts can work, especially if you are using Drum Maps, but for many other types of music the Step Sequencer is far superior.
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C Hudson
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 14:51:52
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he's got the tracks set up and visable on the right side of thge PRV. Selecting a different midi track will change voices.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 14:58:45
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" For some types of music using the PRV to write in drum parts can work, especially if you are using Drum Maps, but for many other types of music the Step Sequencer is far superior." I simply don't agree... and... I write lots of drum parts in PRV... with the state of the art libraries that use most of the piano roll. Even if all you want is a quickly assembled *beats* loop... it's way faster to work in PRV. I'm glad PRV hasn't been deprecated for the 2010s. Although it came close to devolving... after watching Mr Kruger work I'm left to wonder how the smart tool could make the work any faster. It seems faster to know the hot keys than to wait for the smart tool to catch up and find it's focus. Why doesn't Cakewalk produce videos of this quality? Seeing some one work effectively at that speed would make the ProTools guys drool with envy. best regards, mike edit: used the wrong word... fixed
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/02/08 15:07:42
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 14:59:43
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C Hudson
he's got the tracks set up and visable on the right side of thge PRV. Selecting a different midi track will change voices.
Yes, he's moving so fast I don't even see it happen on the 15fps web video.
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 15:08:09
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The PRV composing techniques are interesting and great to see this format being used in that way.
But I believe that you can match the speed of this or beat it by doing something completely different and that is to set up a loop and also have the instruments all available on tap by just switching tracks. You now put your software into record and might start with the metronome as a guiding track.
If you are a skilled player then input all the parts at every pass switching tracks just prior to the start of the loop. This is a better technique (for me) because of two reasons. Firstly any great timing and feel in the parts is maintained. Secondly you might have an exact idea for a part but decide to change it at the last minute or as you get into it, as per improvisation jazz technique. That might be harder just editing in the PRV view.
With the looping technique, if you have a DAW that allows for perfect gapless non glitching audio/midi engine, such as dare I say it Studio One then this all goes even faster and it is more exciting again. You can build up a piece very quickly as all loops can be reset and moved while the music still plays. In the end its only about the what the music says as soon as you hit play, and the approach to getting there is not so important.
But getting back to the OP. it is great to be able to visualise what the vertical and horizontals scales really mean in the PRV view and that composer has got a real handle on that. I also agree with Seth, the step sequencer is amazing in Sonar and some serious music can be created in that environment.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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codamedia
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 15:09:06
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mike_mccue
Re: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL7sLUdtAwY
Did you see how fast he switched the snap to settings?
Right Click - POW!!!
He didn't have to waste any time moving the mouse all way over to the control bar. ;-)
Why move the mouse all the way over to the control bar? You can assign all the snap to values you want to hot keys. It's a two handed approach, but much faster than what you are suggesting.
Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take!
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 15:28:07
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Jeff,
Did Beethoven and Mozart play every part into their scores?
Or did they just write some of it down on the staff?
Also did you see the guitar video where he seems keenly aware of the humanized articulations?
I think this guys is using Cakewalk as a Sequencer in exactly the manner I imagined it was meant to be used when I first bought Pro Audio.
I admire the fact that he can do it so quickly without snap to scale. I use snap to scale and, honestly, use composing multi parts in PRV as a learning experience... but I'm just a hack guitar player with minimal keyboard education.
best regards,
mike
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 15:32:55
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codamedia
mike_mccue
Re: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL7sLUdtAwY
Did you see how fast he switched the snap to settings?
Right Click - POW!!!
He didn't have to waste any time moving the mouse all way over to the control bar. ;-)
Why move the mouse all the way over to the control bar? You can assign all the snap to values you want to hot keys.
It's a two handed approach, but much faster than what you are suggesting.
To be accurate, I merely observed. :-) While I'm very glad to know you can customize your hotkeys I prefer to use the stock hot keys and avoid using custom ones. There are only so any hot keys I want to know about...and "right click mouse" to view a contextual menu is a favorite of mine. I like standardization... while expecting it to be the result of well considered ideas. all the best, mike
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 15:40:27
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mike_mccue
" For some types of music using the PRV to write in drum parts can work, especially if you are using Drum Maps, but for many other types of music the Step Sequencer is far superior."
I simply don't agree... and... I write lots of drum parts in PRV... with the state of the art libraries that use most of the piano roll.
Even if all you want is a quickly assembled *beats* loop... it's way faster to work in PRV.
I'm glad PRV hasn't been deprecated for the 2010s. Although it came close to devolving... after watching Mr Kruger work I'm left to wonder how the smart tool could make the work any faster. It seems faster to know the hot keys than to wait for the smart tool to catch up and find it's focus.
Why doesn't Cakewalk produce videos of this quality? Seeing some one work effectively at that speed would make the ProTools guys drool with envy.
best regards,
mike
edit: used the wrong word... fixed
I couldn't disagree more. Changing velocity, timing, etc. is worlds easier in the SSV than it is in the PRV, but to each his own. Quite frankly, his video isn't of very high production value. I think our videos blow his out of the water (no disrespect to him), but he is obviously an extremely talented composer.
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...wicked
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 16:17:28
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Seth Perlstein [Cakewalk
]
Quite frankly, his video isn't of very high production value. I think our videos blow his out of the water (no disrespect to him), but he is obviously an extremely talented composer. Agreed, but the value of the content (to which is what I think he was referring to) is quite good. It's a massive SONAR affirmation. Also, while I agree about the Step Sequencer NOT being a toy, I think it's seen somewhat as such because it's not integrated with the rest of the Track View (or PRV) with an interface that separates it from the rest of the workflow. I'd love to see the SS stripped down UI-wise and turned into a slightly more glorified PRV (not unlike P5). No clip creation or unlinking or what have you (or at least hot-swappable with regular clips). By making it that much of a jump from a PRV-clip workflow I use way less than I probably should.
=========== The Fog People =========== Intel i7-4790 16GB RAM ASUS Z97 Roland OctaCapture Win10/64 SONAR Platinum 64-bit billions VSTs, some of which work
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Beagle
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 16:32:23
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incredible talent. shows how powerful PRV can be.
I have never used the step sequencer, but then I don't create beats or drum tracks of my own. I only edit MIDI, I don't normally create it there.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 16:48:38
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Seth Perlstein [Cakewalk
]
mike_mccue
" For some types of music using the PRV to write in drum parts can work, especially if you are using Drum Maps, but for many other types of music the Step Sequencer is far superior."
I simply don't agree... and... I write lots of drum parts in PRV... with the state of the art libraries that use most of the piano roll.
Even if all you want is a quickly assembled *beats* loop... it's way faster to work in PRV.
I'm glad PRV hasn't been deprecated for the 2010s. Although it came close to devolving... after watching Mr Kruger work I'm left to wonder how the smart tool could make the work any faster. It seems faster to know the hot keys than to wait for the smart tool to catch up and find it's focus.
Why doesn't Cakewalk produce videos of this quality? Seeing some one work effectively at that speed would make the ProTools guys drool with envy.
best regards,
mike
edit: used the wrong word... fixed
I couldn't disagree more. Changing velocity, timing, etc. is worlds easier in the SSV than it is in the PRV, but to each his own. Quite frankly, his video isn't of very high production value. I think our videos blow his out of the water (no disrespect to him), but he is obviously an extremely talented composer.
Content is king my friend. He is actually showing people HOW to use SONAR... not just displaying a list of features. I know that in the past year or maybe a bit more you have begun to do that as well... I've enjoyed the Session Drummer videos for that reason. It seems ironic that you confine that series of tutorial videos to Session Drummer and Step Sequencer. By doing so you do not reveal the full breadth of SONAR's potential power to edit state of the art sample library drum kits. The video linked to above displays how to make very effective use of SONAR's potential to compose quickly and easily... using a work flow adapted to a 5 year old version of SONAR. Furthermore the video where he describes why he prefers Sonar 4's PRV editing features may remind you why you have come to have the opinion that editing CC data and timing is easier in Step Sequencer... I don't believe it is easier... I think step sequencer is a toy... and I do agree with him that Cakewalk has made PRV more difficult to use rather than easier. best regards, mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/02/08 16:50:40
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HumbleNoise
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 16:50:49
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He also selects multiple MIDI tracks and opens the PRV with multiple voices available on a single PRV. That's how he begins able to compose with all those instruments on a single PRV.
IM(H)O both the SS and PRV are great tools but for different uses. I like and use both.
Humbly Yours Larry Sonar X2 x64 MAudio 2496 Yamaha MG 12/4 Roland XV-88 Intel MB with Q6600 and 4 GB Ram NVidia 9800 GTX Windows 7 x64 Home Premium
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 16:53:57
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The thing is that he's not programing drums, at least in the few minutes I watched. Don't get me wrong, the guy is immensely talented, but he's not really demonstrating SONAR but rather is using it.
Having said that, I don't know if he's really showing any SONAR specific features in the PRV, unless other DAW's PRVs can't show multiple MIDI tracks and switch between them on the fly like that (I don't know).
All of his editing, drawing, erasing, CC drawing, etc. can be done in any DAW, AFAIK. I think that he's really showing is his individual musical ability and adeptness with the software, rather than demonstrating how powerful the software is itself.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 17:00:53
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Yes, well I program drums in PRV and I can easily see the similarities in the speed at which we work. Looping via cut and paste, making minor modifications at subsequent measures, adding breaks etc. If I was a schooled musician I would hope to compose harmonically at the same pace. Instead I can use this as inspiration as I work with what I have. At the very least I am always more interested in developing into a potential rather than pretending some enforced limitation such as using a simplified sample library or a limited selection of note/instruments will make it easier for me to work. Step Sequencer is basically a crippled version of a PRV. Back when all of the new hardware step sequencers were toys... the advent of a PRV was considered an evolutionary step forward... and it still is. I may have to re install V4 and remind myself how good that was! best regards mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/02/08 17:04:25
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Theodor Kruger's Sonar 4 pianoroll workflow for X1?
2011/02/08 17:06:15
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"adeptness with the software"
I think he is showing that you CAN be adept with Cakewalk SONAR.
Can you imagine if he showed drum maps????
That would be like hitting a home run out of the park!!!
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