There's Only So Much Room In The Frequency Spectrum!!!

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AdamGrossmanLG
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2015/04/25 21:15:06 (permalink)

There's Only So Much Room In The Frequency Spectrum!!!

Hello All,
 
Newbie at mixing.  I am getting a bit of mud in my 400 to 1.5k range.  I have 4 instruments playing in that area.   If I move those instruments around to other areas on the spectrum, the sounds will not sound right.  How do I get 4 instruments playing in the same range to sound good?
 
Thank You,
Adam
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    AT
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    Re: There's Only So Much Room In The Frequency Spectrum!!! 2015/04/26 02:03:19 (permalink)
    Mud is generally around 400 Hz, not up to 1.5 kHz.  But generally use Pan and reverb for depth.  I'll often have 2 guitars, recorded at the same time and same bat way.  Pan them each about 75 degrees and they open up.  Then put them through a send w/ reverb to backfill. 
     
    Any 4 instruments are going to sound in that kHz of range.  Even bass, with a fundamental way below 400 Hz will have overtones up through 1.5 kHz.  So usually you find fundamentals/overtones for each instrument and cut away some of the rest.  That usually sounds more natural than pumping up one set of frequencies.  I seldom boost more than 3 dBs.  I'll cut or filter a lot more than that.
     
    But really, the key is recording.  Get that right and mixing is just stupid easy.
     
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    AdamGrossmanLG
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    Re: There's Only So Much Room In The Frequency Spectrum!!! 2015/04/26 02:05:39 (permalink)
    AT
    Mud is generally around 400 Hz, not up to 1.5 kHz.  But generally use Pan and reverb for depth.  I'll often have 2 guitars, recorded at the same time and same bat way.  Pan them each about 75 degrees and they open up.  Then put them through a send w/ reverb to backfill. 
     
    Any 4 instruments are going to sound in that kHz of range.  Even bass, with a fundamental way below 400 Hz will have overtones up through 1.5 kHz.  So usually you find fundamentals/overtones for each instrument and cut away some of the rest.  That usually sounds more natural than pumping up one set of frequencies.  I seldom boost more than 3 dBs.  I'll cut or filter a lot more than that.
     
    But really, the key is recording.  Get that right and mixing is just stupid easy.
     
    @



    Thank you for the reply.  I was thinking about panning, but what about mono mixes?     
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    mettelus
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    Re: There's Only So Much Room In The Frequency Spectrum!!! 2015/04/26 07:50:38 (permalink)
    Take a look at "Mirror EQ"... Dan Worrall has a really nice video on this (is for a plugin, but the presentation is exceptional, and universal). https://youtu.be/kSNYBbPAvKE
     
    Watch the techniques he uses in that presentation (especially audio microscope to find the parts of tracks that are "most important"). Do not boost more than about 3dB, but you can complimentary notch other tracks 6dB or so to "carve out the spectrum."

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re: There's Only So Much Room In The Frequency Spectrum!!! 2015/04/26 08:01:01 (permalink)
    alewgro
     I am getting a bit of mud in my 400 to 1.5k range.  I have 4 instruments playing in that area.   If I move those instruments around to other areas on the spectrum, the sounds will not sound right.  How do I get 4 instruments playing in the same range to sound good?



     
    It depends.  If the music is orchestral in nature, it might be kinda hard to do..... but if the music is more modern, the better way to deal with it is to use EQ to cut the freqs in that range from all the things needing to play in there.
     
    Pan them to different places but cut the freqs as well with EQ.  Even the bass will benefit form a cut on the low end to make it fit well with a kick in the same freq range.
     
    Another thing that might come into play if you have four guitars in that range...... use envelopes and pull some of them out totally to make space. I use this method with the others to get space in my mixes and to get rid of that mud.  It's amazing how drastically you can cut the low end EQ on a guitar and still have it sound good in the overall mix.
     
    The solo in my last song (on the songs forum as FOOLS ERRAND) was cut drastically because it was really muffled sounding and full of mids the way it was recorded. It sounded kinda thin when soloed, but fits well into the mix.
     
    Often, it's a combination of things that gets the job done.

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    #5
    Cactus Music
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    Re: There's Only So Much Room In The Frequency Spectrum!!! 2015/04/26 16:42:49 (permalink)
    Sometimes the problem is we fall in love with to many tracks and the solution is to cut back and focus on the song and not have to much happening. I often do this and the SONG always benefits from subtraction. 
    The other technique is to make sure each part is a different chord voicing and even variations in timing. In other words if 3 instruments play the same note at the same time, guess what. 
     
    Mud is often caused by over doing the Kick drums spectrum. If you have a great Bass track, don't ruin it by putting low end on the kick too. Lock them together and put a mid range peak on the kick but hi pass it at say 300Hz. I have a kick sample that I use that never adds mud. I think it came from the Motown Kit in SD3. 
     

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    pentimentosound
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    Re: There's Only So Much Room In The Frequency Spectrum!!! 2015/04/26 17:03:27 (permalink)
    Ditto, on mettelus and  Johnny V.
        I used to hang and do some demos/gigs with the late Cliff Davies (Ted Nugent-drums, vocals, cowriter and coproducer. Plus "If" in Paris, when he was young). He said that Mick ___? taught him "there's only so many beans in the jar" in NYC, when Cliff was learning to engineer and produce.
       You can only "focus" so many parts of a track. Bringing "this" to the foreground means "that" must go back. This is in terms of EQ. Take away what doesn't help each track and you'll have more room or beans, if you will, for your other parts.
     
    You can, of course, have the foreground change often, by arranging your parts more interestingly. The old Glyn Johns quote about "the right arrangement practically mixes itself", is another favorite of mine.
    Michael
     
     
     
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    pentimentosound
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    Re: There's Only So Much Room In The Frequency Spectrum!!! 2015/04/26 17:15:56 (permalink)
    It's true of vocals, too. I remember tracking a girl's 3 part harmony and I had to cut the sibilance on 2 of them or it sounded like a whip every time she sang an "s". Talk about build up! Sheesh! Leaving the foreground one alone sounded most natural. I only dipped her EQ on the "s" parts. It was my first serious de-essing mess!
    Michael 
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    interpolated
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    Re: There's Only So Much Room In The Frequency Spectrum!!! 2015/04/26 17:35:13 (permalink)
    The lower end of the sound domain is troublesome because the speed of oscilation is much slower and more noticeable.  Looking an eq chart should give you good idea of an instruments/range/harmonics and may indicate the parts of the sound which is a dominant factor.
     
    For example: Toms, Snares, Kick Drums and Bass Guitar and lower register on Celli and Contrabass may need equalised in a certain way or arranged in a way that, the music doesn't cross over too much and have a nice spectral balance.
     
    The combination of equalisers and dynamic processors all play their part.
     
    Also consider frequency dependent side-chaining between the two tracks which are causing you hassle.
    post edited by interpolated - 2015/04/26 17:43:36

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    mettelus
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    Re: There's Only So Much Room In The Frequency Spectrum!!! 2015/04/27 00:29:51 (permalink)
    pentimentosound
    You can only "focus" so many parts of a track. Bringing "this" to the foreground means "that" must go back. This is in terms of EQ. Take away what doesn't help each track and you'll have more room or beans, if you will, for your other parts. 



    ^^ This is a very important point. Once something has been repeated a few times, the listener can easily hear it, even when it drops in volume. Very similar to recognizing someone's voice when listening to them in a crowd. They don't have to be louder than the crowd, but you can pick them out (recognition).
     
    Listen to your favorite tunes carefully, especially ones that come on with a "signature riff" immediately. As new elements come into the song, it is common to have that riff be lowered to give room for new elements. The listener still hears it.

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    pentimentosound
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    Re: There's Only So Much Room In The Frequency Spectrum!!! 2015/04/27 08:37:23 (permalink)
    mettelus is on the money there!
    Whenever I sculpt the tone of an instrument, I make a copy and change it, if the track is going to get solo'd in a breakdown or section of the arrangement where it warrants a different EQ. Obviously you can apply the EQ to the parts of a song all in one track, but I find it easier to mix with them on separate track faders.
    Michael
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    Grem
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    Re: There's Only So Much Room In The Frequency Spectrum!!! 2015/04/27 08:39:26 (permalink)
    mettelus
     
    As new elements come into the song, it is common to have that riff be lowered to give room for new elements. The listener still hears it.




    Zeps "Ten Years" Page does this well.

    Grem

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    pentimentosound
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    Re: There's Only So Much Room In The Frequency Spectrum!!! 2015/04/27 09:22:31 (permalink)
    There is a lot of info available on how we "hear" the full range of an instrument (like a octave baritone guitar)even though it "isn't all there", meaning you can EQ/sculpt away quite a bit and it will still sound/be perceived as "normal". This leaves you more room for the other elements of your mix.
    Google psychoacoustics and EQ. There is so much info that will help you mix lots of tracks and be happy about your results.
    Michael  
    post edited by pentimentosound - 2015/04/27 09:33:43
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    sharke
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    Re: There's Only So Much Room In The Frequency Spectrum!!! 2015/04/27 10:25:50 (permalink)
    Never be afraid to change your arrangement to make instruments in the same frequency range work better together. Try and rearrange them so they're not all playing at the same time. At first this sounds like a compromise you shouldn't have to make (especially when you are emotionally invested in the music you've written) but in practice it often works out very well and creates a sound which is more musically engaging. 
     
    The ear loves to pick out a single line from instruments that are entwined around each other. I do this a lot when working with MIDI parts. You can work with multiple instruments in the piano roll at once and see visually how a single line emerges from instruments which take it in turns to play. So you might have the first instrument play a couple of notes, then the second takes a few, then the third etc. When played back, the ear hears a single melodic line which sounds very interesting by virtue of the fact that it's being strung together very cleverly from multiple parts. It creates very pleasing textures, and is a lot easier to mix because none of the instruments in question are playing at once.

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    synkrotron
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    Re: There's Only So Much Room In The Frequency Spectrum!!! 2015/04/27 11:30:35 (permalink)
    Some excellent stuff here...
     
    mettelus
    Take a look at "Mirror EQ"... Dan Worrall has a really nice video on this (is for a plugin, but the presentation is exceptional, and universal). https://youtu.be/kSNYBbPAvKE

     
    I often return to this video, being a Pro-Q user... It's an excellent piece of reference material 
     
     

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: There's Only So Much Room In The Frequency Spectrum!!! 2015/04/27 14:29:19 (permalink)
    pentimentosound
    It's true of vocals, too. I remember tracking a girl's 3 part harmony and I had to cut the sibilance on 2 of them or it sounded like a whip every time she sang an "s". Talk about build up! Sheesh! Leaving the foreground one alone sounded most natural. I only dipped her EQ on the "s" parts. It was my first serious de-essing mess!
    Michael 


    Hah!
     
    Back in the old days it was common to get the singer(s) to omit all 's' & 't' sounds when overdubbing.
     
    Sounded ridiculous on it's own, but the song benefited immensely

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    pentimentosound
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    Re: There's Only So Much Room In The Frequency Spectrum!!! 2015/04/27 15:09:10 (permalink)
    Right, Jonesey!   I suggested it to her, but she was new to recording and the headphones seemed to be enough of a distraction, without more suggestions from me! LOL
    I was listening to a Shania Twain track, yesterday "Get You Good", that Mutt Lange is barely singing the words to. It sounds like he's singing "gi ya guh" vs enunciating "get you good".  Just enough sound to imply the words and yet it makes the BG vocals fit in the busy track. I learn something from Mutt every time I listen to a track of his!
    Thanks mettelus that is a very good example of EQ'ing things.
    Michael
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    batsbrew
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    Re: There's Only So Much Room In The Frequency Spectrum!!! 2015/04/28 11:02:29 (permalink)
    SOME EXCELLENT TOOLS, TO BEG BORROW OR STEAL (OR JUST PURCHASE!)
     
    WAVES PAZ
    SPAN
    HAR BAL
    ReFuse Software
    FreqAnalyst - Blue Cat Audio
    Vertex DSP
    Seven Phases Spectrum Analyzer
    schwa schOPE, by Stillwell Audio
    Nugen Audio’s  Visualizer
    Melda Productions’ Manalyzer
     
     
    helps your ears get thru a somewhat steep learning curve.
     
     
    when you have buildup,
    it's good to go back to individual tracks and WATCH what is happening at certain frequencies...
     
    you can DECIDE (yes, decisions) which tracks need certain frequencies turned down that are not as necessary for that track, as the next one is.....
    and LEARN how to mitigate frequency buildup.
     
    some folks have magic ears,
    and can just simply hear this happening.....
    others can use a little more help (like me)

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    interpolated
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    Re: There's Only So Much Room In The Frequency Spectrum!!! 2015/04/29 17:28:33 (permalink)
    I have one or two spectral analyst things and don't forget so does Sonar Platinum in the mixer console.

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