Things I don't know, Pt. 1

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sven450
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2010/12/07 13:40:03 (permalink)

Things I don't know, Pt. 1

As a home recording/hobbiest type guy, there are about 8 million things I don't know about recording. Here are two that I'll start with. I'm simply interested in whether or not these things are commonly done by people who record, mix and master professionally (or just plain know what they are doing). 

Please understand I know it varies from song to song, and each one is different, and only your ears matter, and all that stuff.  I'm just curious if these are things that are practiced in the "real world".

1.  In rock music, is the level of drums (or drum busses) "ridden" during recording?  That is, does the level fluctuate from verse to chorus, or are drum kits in a mix generally a constant, with everything around them moving up and down to give movement and energy?  Do most tracks (of any sort) have some sort of automation or envelope?

2.  It seems the more I listen to music (rock) the more it seems that almost all vocals are double, triple, quadtruple tracked.  Is this as true as it appears? Is getting double tracked vocals to be virtually transparent a matter of a great singer, or is it grunt work done by microscopic manipulation the recorded tracks?

Thats it for now, but don't worry, I have plenty more.  Thanks in advance for any input. 

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    bapu
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/07 13:50:22 (permalink)
    1. I have done that using automation but in my ananlog days I've manually done it in mix down too.
    2. I seen it and have done both ways (with singers I've worked with).

    I'm not a pro but I do work in my 'real world'. It probably shows in my answers.

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    Kicker
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/07 14:05:58 (permalink)
    As a home recording/hobbiest type guy, there are about 8 million things I don't know about recording. Here are two that I'll start with. I'm simply interested in whether or not these things are commonly done by people who record, mix and master professionally (or just plain know what they are doing).

     
    Hi Sven,
     
    1. In my experience, the drums are pretty much constant - meaning that the drums are the foundation of the song and the expressiveness of the drummer is allowed to come through. The exception being a poor recording that needs cleanup or an untalented drummer who only knows how to bang the crap out of everything.
     
    2. As a general rule, a strong vocalist who is able to double/triple/quadruple their vocals on successive takes are the ones who need it the least. You are very correct that modern rock and pop makes use of doubled/tripled/quadrupled vocals freely both as an effect and also to strengthen the vocals overall. So to answer the question, your artists will probably demand doubled/tripled/quadrupled vocals for their project and you will have to decide whether to let the vocalist waste al day struggling to mimic his own crap or to start duping the takes with changes in effects and small nudges to get the chorused phasing that produces an audible thickness.
     
    ************
    A while back someone put up a link to a video of Michael Jackson working with Quincy Jones in the studio on some vocal tracks. His takes were amazing in how precisely they matched the original. Whatever else he was, he was an amazing singer.
     
    Also, many years ago when David Lee Roth had a radio show, he did a segment on "modern" pop/rock vocals. He was heavily critical of the amount of doubling/tripling/quadrupling of the vocals that was being used. After hearing that on the radio I listened to VH with a new appreciation for Diamond Dave's vocals. There was no doubling at all and his voice was still very strong.
     
    I think that this has more to do with the hyper-compression being used today more than anything else. Older stuff is frequently described as "sparse" - meaning that there is room for a vocalist to cut through the mix without needing to double/triple/quadruple the tracks.
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    Rothchild
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/07 14:38:48 (permalink)
    I'm also going to disclaim myself from being 'pro' but this is the internet so you can have my 2c as well.

    I wouldn't generally considering riding gains when tracking drums, unless it were in a piece that had really broad dynamic range (ie sections where the drummer is going from 'full tilt' to 'kitten stroking' between every verse and chorus (or whatnot)). I did track some stuff this weekend where the playout of the song is full tilt and the rest not, we actually chose to take it in two passes and reset the gains between them, but I didn't then ride them once they were going down.

    I think riding drums, in the context of a mix, is perfectly acceptable. I hear lots of drum level rides on Radiohead's 'The Bends' (overheads and kicks tend to go up in the choruses) and if you read the stuff about how Michael Brauner mixes he does a lot of rides, but in a setup that's basically multiple channels of 'new york' compression, he uses auxs to feed busses with compressors on and then rides the aux to push more or less signal in to the compressor so the tone and range change with the ride. (at least that's how I read it!)

    For vocals I think all the really good ones are down to the singer and all the ok ones are 'fixed in the mix'. There are, of course, tricks; it may be that what you hear as a double is actually a delay? Short verbs with some pre-delay do a similar thing. I think DT vox are very popular at the moment (there was a comment in an interview with a guy that had worked with ?Katy Perry? describing how her idea of a big pop vocal was essentially the sound of DT and he spent a bit of time convincing her that a bit of contrast now and then mightn't be a bad thing, I'm not sure he suceeded!) but they don't work with everything.

    Cheers,
    Child
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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/07 14:46:30 (permalink)
    In my mixing and recording world ...and I don't claim to know it all either....

    I almost always (very very rare exceptions) let the drums and the bass stay constant through out the entire song. The perceived level changes should be coming from the player, and how they are playing from the verses to the choruses.
    To me these 2 instruments are the fundamental backbone or foundation to the music and need to be constant.

    Everything else is variable IMHO.

    I generally work in country and country rock with vocals so they tend to be solo. To get a good doubling takes a bit of work. If it's not done right, it immediately takes the song to amateur level.

    A lot of what I hear that I like is a strong lead vox with a faint harmony that hits the highlights and doesn't stay in the chorus all the way through. This song by Frank, here in the forum, is a good example of what I am talking about. Wait until the second chorus... the vox doubles 2 words.

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    sven450
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/07 14:49:27 (permalink)
    A while back someone put up a link to a video of Michael Jackson working with Quincy Jones in the studio on some vocal tracks. His takes were amazing in how precisely they matched the original. Whatever else he was, he was an amazing singer.


    I heard Elton John was amazing at this as well.  Thanks for the input.

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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/07 14:51:31 (permalink)
    I've tried that and I get close but it comes out sounding bad..... so I don't do that.

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    sven450
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/07 14:53:02 (permalink)
    I almost always (very very rare exceptions) let the drums and the bass stay constant through out the entire song. The perceived level changes should be coming from the player, and how they are playing from the verses to the choruses. To me these 2 instruments are the fundamental backbone or foundation to the music and need to be constant.


    This seems to be the consensus (and what I suspected).  Thanks for input on this. 

    Rothchild:  I'll need to listen to The Bends (for the millionth time) and see if I can hear what you are describing.  Sounds cool.

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    mattplaysguitar
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/07 15:08:55 (permalink)
    1 - DEFINITELY depends on the song. Some songs might have some really soft drumming parts which build up and the natural playing of the drummer doesn't quite get the perfect volumes needed. Other times, you might want the drumming pretty constant. Even then, sometimes the chorus 'could' go up 1-2db but that might just be the kick and snare, or the whole kit, or a parallel compressed copy, or a change in snare reverb etc. Me personally, I tend to use volume automation on most tracks these days. Anything can vary. Drums, guitar, bass, vocals, it all depends on the song. The better your ear gets are listening to dynamics, the more you realise how much you can subtly bring things up 1-2 dB here and down a little there just to make things flow. I RARELY find a clip that plays over an entire song will want to be at the same level the whole time.

    2 - I would agree with all mentioned above. Depends on how good the singer is.

    I think pretty much everything is used nowadays and you just need to know when to use it. That's what makes a good mixer, he must know his tools, but it's SO important to know WHEN to use them. And that 'when' is entirely context based.

    Now fire away with the rest of the questions! Lay them all out!


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    sven450
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/07 15:28:34 (permalink)
    1 - DEFINITELY depends on the song. Some songs might have some really soft drumming parts which build up and the natural playing of the drummer doesn't quite get the perfect volumes needed. Other times, you might want the drumming pretty constant. Even then, sometimes the chorus 'could' go up 1-2db but that might just be the kick and snare, or the whole kit, or a parallel compressed copy, or a change in snare reverb etc. Me personally, I tend to use volume automation on most tracks these days. Anything can vary. Drums, guitar, bass, vocals, it all depends on the song. The better your ear gets are listening to dynamics, the more you realise how much you can subtly bring things up 1-2 dB here and down a little there just to make things flow. I RARELY find a clip that plays over an entire song will want to be at the same level the whole time.


    Great.  Just when I thought it was safe to have at least one thing I didn't have to worry about messing with, you hit me with this!  More decisions! More squiggly lines on my screen!

    Kidding aside, I can see how occasionally this may be just the trick.

    I can see how minute changes could help in the overall perception of the power of a chorus, I was just wondering if people actually did it (mainly with drums).  Apparently, some do.  I think I read that some big producer (Mutt?) raised everything on choruses by just 1 dB to instill a sense of power.  Thanks for the input.  More questions to come....

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    mattplaysguitar
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/07 15:38:07 (permalink)
    Hey it's certainly not vital, but sometimes can just add that little bit. Have a listen to the reverb on the snare in some songs. A LARGE amount of the time you'll find it changes from verse to chorus. There are a million little subtle things like this that all add up to create an amazing mix. A complex mix might often be the culmination of lots of little things that by themselves don't do much for the mix, but together they work as an army. The more you learn, the more complicated your mixes will get - but hopefully sophisticated and NOT over the top. That's the tricky bit. Don't want to push all these things too far.


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    AT
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/07 18:17:36 (permalink)
    A good drummer solves lots of problems, esp. with dynamics.  A hardware compressor can help w/ not so great drummers, not flattening out the volume but simply reducing the variation between loud and louder hits.

    Same w/ a singer.  The good ones don't need to double except for effect - on the choruses, etc.

    On rock, you want your foundation solid - bass and drums and rhythm guitar.  There shouldn't be a lot of variations except for the playing/writing.  The bass can usually use a nice comp on it.  And on rhythm guitar a little carving w/ EQ helps it hold a place in the mix more than compression.

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    bitflipper
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/07 18:47:09 (permalink)
    ...there are about 8 million things I don't know about recording.

    You can consider yourself highly educated, then. Everybody doesn't know 8 million things, but hardly anybody knows which ones they are.

    As for riding drums, it depends on if they're real or not. Programmed drums often need some riding to make up for the fact that they're, well, fake. A good drummer will supply you with all the dynamics you need.


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    sven450
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/08 12:22:35 (permalink)
    You can consider yourself highly educated, then. Everybody doesn't know 8 million things, but hardly anybody knows which ones they are.


    Well, I'm down to 7,999,998.  Now I have to add a bunch more because my copy of XI is almost here.

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    skullsession
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/08 13:41:51 (permalink)
    A couple of tricks for double vocals.

    1:  Ask the singer to leave off the ending consonants to the last word of the double.  T's, S's, D's, K's, etc.  Even singers who are "naturals" when it comes to doubling often have trouble hitting those exactly....and then you either re-track it or you end up editing off those double/triple consonants.

    2:  It is often very helpful to the singer if you have them pull off one ear of the headphones so that they can hear the recorded part in the cans while they get most of the double track straight from their mouth, in the room.  Sometimes, without this, a singer has a hard time hearing which part is which - and they have pitch problems with the double.  (I also have them cup the open can to their head, behind the ear so that the bleed doesn't shoot straight into the mic.)

    IN THE MIX:

    1:  Sometimes, I'll just do a single (double),  In that case, I like to run it straight up the middle, behind the lead vocal.

    2:  Sometimes we'll do a triple.  Lead vocal in the middle.  Doubles, split stereo - one left, one right.  And again...pulling up the sides until you can just barely hear them...and then maybe back off just a hair from there.

    This particular statement is true for most every production I do.:  I never apply effects to the double track.  I simply leave it dry and "sneak" it up behind the main vocal track.  I like to mute everything else and bring up the double track slowly until I hear it JUST start to support the lead vocal.  I also tend to cut a lot of low end from the doubles.

    I find that adding effects to the double track often overdoes the effect.  I get all that I need from the effects I run on the lead vocal.

    By sneaking the double track up just behind the lead vocal, I find that I get the support I need - or want - without it being obvious that it's been double tracked.  With a singer who's good a doubling, all you'll notice is a vocal that's super-strong.

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    Slugbaby
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/08 13:55:02 (permalink)
    skullsession


    A couple of tricks for double vocals.

    1:  Ask the singer to leave off the ending consonants to the last word of the double.  T's, S's, D's, K's, etc.  Even singers who are "naturals" when it comes to doubling often have trouble hitting those exactly....and then you either re-track it or you end up editing off those double/triple consonants. 

    My vocal teacher suggested removing ALL consonants in a backing track.  This also helps in that you have to focus more on the pitch than tone, and that you don't spike the cumulative volume with 'plosives.
    For example, i was messing with James' "Protect Me" for vocal techniques (opera lessons, don't like opera).  Singing "OhEhEee" in one breath behind Protect Me...

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    sven450
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/08 19:53:25 (permalink)
    Thanks for the tips on double tracking. Double tracking vocals is just one of those techniques that seems to really requires a boatload of time, practice, and  trial and error (unfortunately for me, usually more error).  I'll be giving those tips a shot.  thanks.

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    timidi
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/08 20:36:27 (permalink)

    This is wonderful 'doubling'
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdSrSFhi9Hk

    I can't figure out if this is doubled or delay? whatcha think.

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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/08 23:25:54 (permalink)
    As for drums..... I used to ride ( real ) faders on them ( meaning real drums )...but only to squash the occasional errant hard hit that would stick out like a sore thumb.
     General leveling < 2:1 ration would keep things locked in, but that occasional crash or hard tom hit needed a real fader pull. Using samples and midi ?  Naw.. never,  that's all edit fun up front now. I kind of miss the real time excitement of a 6 hands on 24 faders during a mix.

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    Middleman
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/09 00:17:17 (permalink)
    timidi


    This is wonderful 'doubling'
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdSrSFhi9Hk

    I can't figure out if this is doubled or delay? whatcha think.


    Doubled. Panned L & R so it sounds delayed abit.

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    skullsession
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/09 06:45:50 (permalink)
    Middleman


    timidi


    This is wonderful 'doubling'
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdSrSFhi9Hk

    I can't figure out if this is doubled or delay? whatcha think.


    Doubled. Panned L & R so it sounds delayed abit.


    And...it sounds like they may have doubled a "whisper" track in there on one side as well.  Also a very cool effect if done right.

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/09 07:16:41 (permalink)
    I almost always (very very rare exceptions) let the drums and the bass stay constant through out the entire song. The perceived level changes should be coming from the player, and how they are playing from the verses to the choruses.
    To me these 2 instruments are the fundamental backbone or foundation to the music and need to be constant.


    This is my current operating method, unless it's for dramatic effect.

    Your drummer/programming should be following the dynamics of the song

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    Jonbouy
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/09 10:46:32 (permalink)

    Often drum tracks are just left with the natural dynamics supplying definition in the songs structure but not always.

    I've even, albeit rarely, worked on songs where the verses were tracked separately from the choruses (or certain elements came from different takes) and the song has been comped together from the two recordings which has made for striking contrasts. (Try measuring a small but consistent difference in BPM between verse and chorus on some older hit songs, you might find it surprising how commonly it has been done)

    Most commonly though the basic kit is lifted by a complementary rhythm part emphasising definition between structural elements of the song.  Maybe a shaker, tambourine or some such will be just enough to supply that extra lift or drive required.

    If programming midi drums try subtle velocity (rather than volume changes) to emulate the difference in expression that a drummer would naturally use.

    Ride the faders (after tracking), add extra parts, comp different takes listen to the results defining what works for you will be part of your signature sound

    Understanding many different ways of doing things doesn't mean you have to use all the methods you have at your disposal on every track, but the more aware you make yourself of different techniques you CAN use will help you in making the creative decisions needed to raise your tracks above the pack.

    In this respect there ain't no rules.
    post edited by Jonbouy - 2010/12/09 10:54:07

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/10 04:39:35 (permalink)
    Hi Jon.

    If programming midi drums try subtle velocity (rather than volume changes) to emulate the difference in expression that a drummer would naturally use.


    I've been dragging some pre-rolled grooves from BFD into Sonar recently, and it's quite an eye-opener to see just how dynamic some of these grooves can be.

    When I roll my own, my veolocities usually occupy a range of about 70 - 110, yet the pre-rolled ones are much more dynamic than that - barely audible tom hits, snare fills, full of grace notes etc - velocities can range from about 10 to 120. This makes for a much more realistic drum part which only needs a bit of tweaking here & there to fit perfectly into the song.

    Timing is another issue. Many of these hits don't fall anywhere near the "right" beat or measure, yet on playback, there is no suggestion at all that the virutal drummer is playing out of time - it's just a holisitc, organic approach to drumming that has the huge bonus of speeding up the creation of drum tracks enormously.

    Another bonus is of course the HUGE number of grooves that come with BFD, all sorts of time signatures, grouped into various BPM's (the recorded BPM is fairly irrelevant of course - when they're dragged into Sonar they automatically assume the BPM of the project.)



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    Jonbouy
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/10 08:37:28 (permalink)

    Indeed, there are some killer 3rd party midi loops available out there often played by some great players too.  I agree there is no need to re-invent the wheel 

    And don't forget you can easily mix and match individual kit pieces too meaning that even a small library of these kind of clips can go a very long way.

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Things I don't know, Pt. 1 2010/12/10 14:50:37 (permalink)
    Yes - and lots more besides. In BFD, for each kit piece, you can adjust the amount of damping, the damping frequency, the amount of bleed of Kick/Snare into various other channels, tuning, dynamics, determine how much of each piece gets sent to the Overheads/Room Mic & ambience channels, the relative volume of each articulation, and that's before getting into overall parameters, such as humanise, dynamics etc.

    But - if this sounds overly complicated, just set up a custom kit (12, 18 or 22 pieces), make all your changes and simply save it down as a preset.

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