Helpful ReplyThis dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters....

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Dreamer
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2017/08/26 17:09:36 (permalink)

This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters....

What are they? My understanding is that dB is used for analog audio and dBFS is used in digital hardware/software audio. Why are Sonar meters described as VU, (an anolog standard)? Are they VU meters with three different flavors, (rms, peak and peak+rms)? Why aren't they dBFS level meters? Every time there's a subject on volume here in this forum referring to Sonar, I keep seeing descriptions in dB. Even in Sonar's help program volume is described in dB. I assumed all DAW programs are digital not analog. So again I ask, (I am very confused), what are they? There is nothing I could find anywhere as to what they are. Isn't the level output reading supposed to be dBFS? Even the measurement range selection for the meters is in dB. Please excuse my dumminess...I'm just so confused.

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slartabartfast
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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/27 00:35:11 (permalink)
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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/27 02:43:20 (permalink)
Thanks for the link but I already know all of that. Good try but you didn't read or perhaps understood my question.

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RSMCGUITAR
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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/27 03:12:27 (permalink)
I would assume the meters in Sonar are dbFS since if you go over 0db it will clip.
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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/27 08:01:22 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Dreamer 2017/08/28 11:36:19
No.
 
Your Track and Bus meters can go WAY into the red but because of the 64 bit floating point maths involved, you won't clip your output if you drag your master fader down to a point where there is no "clipping".
 
You can easily prove this for yourself.
 
Your interface outputs (Main Outs) are different. If you clip  these then you're introducing digital distortion which sounds horrible. So my take is that your track & buss meters emulate analog VU meters whereas your Mains are true DbFS meters.
 
Someone with a bit more knowledge than myself should be able to prove or disprove these rambling thoughts. 
 
 

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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/27 09:12:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Dreamer 2017/08/28 14:22:46
I would assume that everything referred to as dB in the digital world is just an abbreviation for dBFS.  I also think that if this topic is expounded upon in detail, we will have a general increase in knowledge for gain staging analog and digital components, but I also think the differences can't really be heard until they add up to an overly saturated mix or something odd happening that's hard to fix.  I think we should talk about it.  

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Dreamer
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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/28 11:43:45 (permalink)
Bristol_Jonesey
Someone with a bit more knowledge than myself should be able to prove or disprove these rambling thoughts. 
 

Thanks brother. It seems like no one so far knows either. I guess this will be the one time were the members are stumped.

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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/28 13:43:34 (permalink)
I too am in the dark as to how these work. Although I track and mix paying attention to staying away from the red, I have noticed that on occasion when I have strayed into the red, I don't really hear any obvious distortion.

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57Gregy
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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/28 14:01:39 (permalink)
"The red" is still -6 dB. You shouldn't get distortion until you reach 0 dB.
Or not?

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KingsMix
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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/28 14:18:25 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Dreamer 2017/08/30 19:52:41
Dreamer
What are they? My understanding is that dB is used for analog audio and dBFS is used in digital hardware/software audio. Why are Sonar meters described as VU, (an anolog standard)? Are they VU meters with three different flavors, (rms, peak and peak+rms)? Why aren't they dBFS level meters? Every time there's a subject on volume here in this forum referring to Sonar, I keep seeing descriptions in dB. Even in Sonar's help program volume is described in dB. I assumed all DAW programs are digital not analog. So again I ask, (I am very confused), what are they? There is nothing I could find anywhere as to what they are. Isn't the level output reading supposed to be dBFS? Even the measurement range selection for the meters is in dB. Please excuse my dumminess...I'm just so confused.


Download a third party Level Meter Plugin and run some test compared to Sonar meters, and you can probably figure out yourself what you are actually seeing in Sonar. Think there are some decent free ones out there, if I am not mistaken (dBFS and VU types).
For my final mix I always use third party Level Meters, as well as for my gain staging and especially for Mastering. Yes Sonar could probably have more accurate level metering, although to be fair, IMHO,I haven't used a DAW yet that has accurate level meters, and I use a few.
Just my 2 cents.
 
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Dreamer
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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/28 14:20:21 (permalink)
57Gregy
"The red" is still -6 dB. You shouldn't get distortion until you reach 0 dB.
Or not?



See, this is why I get lost. -6 dB and -6 dBSF are very different levels of volume. That's the point of my question. Aren't the main meters supposed to output in dBSF level?
 

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GaryMedia
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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/28 16:34:46 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Dreamer 2017/08/28 20:24:25
Dreamer
What are they? My understanding is that dB is used for analog audio and dBFS is used in digital hardware/software audio. Why are Sonar meters described as VU, (an anolog standard)? Are they VU meters with three different flavors, (rms, peak and peak+rms)? Why aren't they dBFS level meters? Every time there's a subject on volume here in this forum referring to Sonar, I keep seeing descriptions in dB. Even in Sonar's help program volume is described in dB. I assumed all DAW programs are digital not analog. So again I ask, (I am very confused), what are they? There is nothing I could find anywhere as to what they are. Isn't the level output reading supposed to be dBFS? Even the measurement range selection for the meters is in dB. Please excuse my dumminess...I'm just so confused.




Ok... (cracks knuckles) let's take a shot:
Firstly, this article in the  TapeOp website http://tapeop.com/tutorials/54/meters/  has excellent perspective about the  behavior of VU meters and the need for other types of metering. 
 
Backward compatibility is reasonably possible to emulate, and there are a variety of plugins that attempt to mimic the mechanical ballistics and behavior of VU meters in the software.  As noted in the article, there are assumptions about the true peaks that are inherent in the mechanical ballistics that make it unsuitable for really keeping the reins on your musical compositions. 
 
In every DAW the meters are a dBFS scale.  The movement of the meters' lights/LED's, or green/yellow/red area fills can be coded to be true peak, RMS, temporary peak indicating, long-term integration, the combo plate with fries, or anything else the coders can make for you.  It has been a long time since I've used Sonar 8.5, so I don't recall how many metering behaviors were available in that release. 
 
Once your tracks are summed to the master output, then you're getting to the point where the calibration of the dBFS to the actual electrical levels of the D/A converter and the input sensitivity of the amp/speakers, and the dB SPL level in the air at your listening position begin to matter a great deal. 
 
In my studio, I've calibrated a -18dBFS level mono 1kHz sine wave output to be 80dB SPL at my listening position. That -18dBFS was calibrated on the input to be +4dBu.  In between, I can have a party with levels all over the place. 
 
I hope this helps you on your way.  Check out my articles for more detail.

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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/28 20:57:09 (permalink)
Awesome Gary! But you're way above my pay grade, (I'm at the flux capacitor level...LOL). Good info and interesting write -up. I think I'm getting a little closer to understanding.
 
The image I included is of my main meters. I normally set them to peak+rms, (Sonar 8.5 only gives three options). If it is a dB FS scale then the the graphical display implies that anything above -7 is hot, (I generally float my mix between -7 and let my peaks tap -3). And what I'm reading around the www is that one should try to stay somewhere between -14 and -20 on a final mix. Is this right or wrong?
post edited by Dreamer - 2017/08/28 22:09:32

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Dreamer
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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/29 20:27:25 (permalink)
Awesome Gary! But you're way above my pay grade, (I'm at the flux capacitor level...LOL). Good info and interesting write -up. I think I'm getting a little closer to understanding.

The image I included is of my main meters. I normally set them to peak+rms, (Sonar 8.5 only gives three options). If it is a dB FS scale then the the graphical display implies that anything above -7 is hot, (I generally float my mix between -7 and let my peaks tap -3). And what I'm reading around the www is that one should try to stay somewhere between -14 and -20 on a final mix. Is this right or wrong?

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Dreamer
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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/29 20:29:04 (permalink)

post edited by Dreamer - 2017/08/29 20:58:07

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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/29 22:18:09 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Dreamer 2017/08/29 22:52:27
My 0.02c. Peaks up to -0.1 are OK at mastering stage. Best to leave a few dB if sending off to mastering.
I've found RMS from -12 to -14 dBFS gives a reasonably loud mix without restarting the loudness wars!
I think there are different ways of measuring RMS (e.g. different K-metering standards, LKRS/LUFS) that take into account human hearing. I believe Sonar uses standard unweighted RMS.
 
dB is a relative measure. It compares the RMS of two signals. dBFS compares to full-scale. Two signals can differ by 5dB (say), or a signal can have a level of -3dBFS. See here for a little more info.
 
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The Maillard Reaction
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' 2017/08/30 00:59:40 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Dreamer 2017/08/30 12:03:50
.
post edited by mister happy - 2017/08/31 18:57:55


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Dreamer
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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/30 02:41:06 (permalink)
mister happy.....Yes, SONAR's meter's describe Full Scale units in decibel ratios: dBFS (not "SF")...
.....Give that a couple years to sink in, but in the mean time consider that you did not get the answer you wanted to your question because the question was not coherent as it was stated. Good luck.

 
Thanks Mister Happy. Actually I did get some good answers, (which includes yours). And thanks for correcting that transcription, (SF to FS).



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John
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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/30 09:23:00 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Dreamer 2017/08/30 12:30:07
The meters that Sonar uses are absolute. What they read is dead on accurate. VU meters are approximations.They have little in common with the meters in Sonar. Where some users get into trouble is adjusting the level being recorded using the track meters and the track fader or gain control while recording. Those meters need to be left at unity. All adjustments to level must come from the source. After recording then one can use the gain and fader to adjust level going to a bus. 
 
The reason for this is Sonar can not meter the incoming signal before it hits the AD converter. Leaving the meters at unity gives an accurate reading when recording. One can set up the record meters to any scale and change the ballistics to what ever value one wants. The playback meters can be set to a different scale and ballistic.  
 
I leave them at their default. 

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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/30 13:04:31 (permalink)
Thanks John. Although I know what the track meters are I'm not sure of what you mean by "track fader or gain". Is that the volume and trim parameter?

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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/30 14:54:38 (permalink)
Just to muddy the waters further...this is why I like to master as a separate process. SONAR has enough internal headroom that you can get away with just about anything...just make sure the output is a rational amount below 0 so there's some headroom.
 
Then when you master, you add dynamics, EQ, etc. and aim for a specific LUFS value. SONAR's Adaptive Limiter lets you see this as well if you want to master within SONAR. The "You Mix, We Master" articles in the Tech+Music eZine address this topic from time to time.
 

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John
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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/30 16:41:55 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Dreamer 2017/08/30 18:16:08
Dreamer
Thanks John. Although I know what the track meters are I'm not sure of what you mean by "track fader or gain". Is that the volume and trim parameter?


Yes. The trim is now called gain. Fader is the control on the track volume control.

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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/30 16:53:15 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Dreamer 2017/08/30 18:16:28
BTW you are no dummy. I don't talk to dummies. Its a waste of time. You are no dummy.   

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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/30 18:11:04 (permalink)
John
BTW you are no dummy. I don't talk to dummies. Its a waste of time. You are no dummy.   


LOL!! Perhaps the post "mr happy" wrote implied that he took my statement literally. His comment had a tone of sarcasm that left my ears ringing.
post edited by Dreamer - 2017/08/30 19:49:27

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Re: This dummy needs help understanding Sonar's meters.... 2017/08/30 19:41:02 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Dreamer 2017/08/30 19:48:49
It wouldn't matter anyway. You questions are excellent and by asking them you prove you are smart enough to fine out. The reason I don't talk to dummies is they don't ask questions. Therefore there is nothing to reply to. LOL

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