Thoughts on Bonham playing technique while recording.....

Danny Danzi

There is nothing worse being an engineer, than to have to change out a drummers hits because he hit them like a sissy

-Danny

That's funny.  LOL


I agree with what your saying about all those things that could make the drums sound big or small. 

I purchased a Mapex birch 7 piece drum set last summer. Got a 24 Channel snake going from the garage to my music room..... And man .... I have been playing around with mics and placement and no matter what it sounds like a Mapex intermediate kit miked up in a garage. I do different things and each time I try it is different .... But not the sound I am after..... Heck I am not even sure what sound I am after I am just trying to find something that sounds good. 

I thought the quote from drum lesson girl Gina Knight was interesting ... If nothing else 

So anyway ...

I don't know a lot about Bonham but I thought I read somewhere that he preferred to be recorded in big open concrete rooms .... Voila! Thre is his big drum sound. I don't know that for sure. Just something that got put in my head somewhere along my 42 years of existence so far 

I've heard stupid people say that he used such a big bass drum live becuase it gave them low end since they didn't have a bass player ..... I just thought .... DO they know who was John Paul Jones? 


Hahahahahaha 

Ok Mooch, I smell a long post coming. So you may want to print this out and read it the next time you're on the throne....the drum throne that is! :-Þ

Ok, now that I sort of know what your issues are, you're still in good shape. One of your biggest issues will be, Birch is a darker wood. So it won't be as snappy as some of the other woods. This leaves you with that dark, classic rock sort of sound. That's not a bad thing, but in my humble opinion, as much as I love Bonham, his son has him obliterated when we compare drum sounds. Granted, I'm more into modern technology and sounds more than the older classic sounds, but this is just insane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD-MdiUm1_Y&list=FL67MnxaNywdRqEgiyCcp3Ng&index=8

How much bigger of a room do ya need? YET...these drums do NOT sound like the room is what is making them sound so pristine. They sound close mic'd, right? It's all in the drums themselves, the tuning, the heads, the mics used, and the processing.

So when you mic up your drums and hear that garage type sound, we have a few more things to consider.

1. What mic's are you using? Though this is important if you are going for specific, or more focused sounds, just about any mic will do. Yep, I actually just said that. The reason being? I've been stuck in situations in the past where I had some nasty mics. BUT...if you put them in the right spot and know how to eq, compress and gate, as well as have an ear for what good drum tone is on the material you are working on, you won't fail.

2. How good are you at compression? This is so important, I can't even begin to tell you. Compression isn't just used to control the level on drums. It's literally used to sculpt the sound of the drums. I could give you a basic snare drum sound that would change into a rock animal by just using compression and an eq. The compressor in this example, would be used to bring out more crack and a bit more ring/resonance. Or, if you have a drum that may ring a bit too much, you can control this with release time as well as working your threshold and attack time. You can ADD more resonance using them as well. So just with a compressor alone, you can make a dull, boring snare turn into a force to reckon with.

Here's a small example. We have a fair snare here. Sounds like a snare, it' mono. It wasn't hit with much conviction, it's nothing to brag about, right? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4909348/Snare1.mp3

Now let's take the same exact snare using the same exact hits and compress it so the snare cracks a little more and sustains a little more.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4909348/Snare2Comp.mp3

Hear the difference? That's just using a compressor. I've done nothing else and already we took a fair, run of the mill snare, and made it start to take on a snare with more crack, sustain and conviction. Now let's push the envelope a little further.

In this example, we will use a compressor, an eq to bring out a little more high end crack as well as get rid of some of the low end that shouldn't be there, we'll use a Transient Designer to give the snare even more impact and we'll add a little verb on the snare to make it appear that it is now in stereo as opposed to the mono snare we listened to in the first two examples. This is the SAME exact snare with the same exact hits. So now we have this: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4909348/Snare3CompEqTdVerb.mp3

The snare has come to life. More crack, more sustain, a bit of a stereo spread and it no longer sounds like that boring, half hit thing we started with in the Snare 1 file. Now, if you did something like this on ALL your drums after you've recorded them, it's going to improve your sound ten-fold. The object is to get solid sounds though. You also will need to use gates depending on how good your mic'ing skills are.

The gates will stop some of the bleed and also can control how long a drum will last. This is another thing that makes drums sound amateur and garage-like. Drums lasting too long as well as improper mic techniques can be the death of you. Too much bleed in hat and snare mics....all that stuff can be brutal. So though you want a little bleed going on, controlling/gating and eq'ing your over-heads and cymbal mic's will always be crucial.

You also have a great advantage that you probably didn't know you had. One of the great things about these drum modules we have (Session Drummer, EZDrummer, BFD, Superior, Slate, etc) is you can listen to them and try to cop the sounds they have going on. Now, if you're not using a Ludwig Supra or an Acro, you're not going to get that snare sound. However, it's great to listen to the snares they have that you may like and compare them to your snare sound. What do theirs have that yours does not? This is an awesome way to help you mic, tune and set up your kit. BFD and Superior have some of the most realistic kit pieces out. What better programs to model your real recorded drums from, ya know what I mean? 

Another thing to remember...and this is mega important. Quite a few engineers/producers talk with their heads up their butts. Meaning, they try their best to make you think they are telling you the truth when in reality, they are lying so bad while laughing all the way home. It's the entertainment business...no one wants to share any super hard core ideas that will take food off of their table today. So don't always believe what you read....unless it's me telling it to you because I have nothing to lose and would pat you on the back if anything I ever shared with you made you money. :)

And last but not least, do not be afraid to resample or hybrid. Just about every recorded drum sound today has layers of samples on top along with the real drum sounds. Don't feel bad if you wind up having to do this. 98% of the industry is doing it too. Using something like Drumagog is actually brilliant because you can get the sound of one drum and then mix in the sound of another. For example....

Say you felt that snare we have up there ^ needed a bit more snare strainer or even "ring" to it. That particular snare doesn't have ring in it. We'd have to re-record the snare with another snare drum if you wanted more ring or snare stainer sound, right? In most cases the answer would be yes. Fortunately for us, we have programs like Drumagog. In 5 seconds I could load up a snare (preferably something brass since that rings really nice) tune it to the original and then mix just the right amount in...and presto....more ring to our snare.

You may have a kick that thuds really well but may lack beater attack. Sometimes you just can't add in this beater attack with an eq. So, you bring in another kick drum with more beater using Drumagog on top of the one you have, mix it in just right and bang...more beater sound in your thuddy kick drum.

So there are lots of things you can do here Mooch. The biggest thing in real drums though, is the drums themselves. The wood makes a difference....the price you pay makes a difference (unless you really get a killer deal on a great used set) tuning and what I call "studio proofing" (make sure your drums don't squeak, rattle or make weird noises etc) as well as knowing how to mic them to get the best out of that kit.

I mention price because lets face it...a set of DW's is going to annihilate a set of lower line Tama's. Sonor's are going to rip an entry level set of Pearl to shreds. There are certain drums that are just made for recording. Yamaha Recording Custom, DW, Sonor, Tama Super Star or Star Classic, Pearl Masterworks etc are all incredible kits for recording. Nothing for thousands less than them really compares *most* of the time.

There is just something about a high end drum kit that shines. There are people that will argue with me, but 7 times out of 10, the greatest recorded drums sounds are usually on higher end kits. Then again, it depends on what an individual considers "great recorded drums". To me that's drummers like Neil Peart, Mike Portnoy, Carter Bruford, Dennis Chambers, and especially, Dave Weckl here....first drummer that plays. Just listen to that kit...man...this is totally a killer drum sound to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJsybbSHfx4&list=FL67MnxaNywdRqEgiyCcp3Ng&index=15

Hear how rich they sound Mooch? That sound richness there comes from the drums...not the player or anything else. Inexpensive drums sound like inexpensive drums. Sure, the player can make a difference but you or I play well enough to where if you put us on one of those kits, we'd still sound like a million bucks. Put us on a set of Kent and it won't matter how good we play...the sound just isn't there.

Anyway, I'd say I'm sorry for this long post but I warned you ahead of time. LOL! :) I hope you enjoyed this and got something out of it. If I can help in any way, or you have questions, let me know and I'll try to help you out. :)

-Danny

@Danny...

Question for you. I have been considering using an acoustic set of drums but not sure of which ones to look into...you have some favorite ones? 

BTW...I've been keeping some of your posts in here...need more time to go through them!! LOL!!


edit...love missing keypads...grrrrr

It's all in the drums themselves, the tuning, the heads, the mics used, and the processing. So when you mic up your drums and hear that garage type sound, we have a few more things to consider. 


 1. What mic's are you using? Though this is important if you are going for specific, or more focused sounds, just about any mic will do. Yep, I actually just said that. The reason being? I've been stuck in situations in the past where I had some nasty mics. BUT...if you put them in the right spot and know how to eq, compress and gate, as well as have an ear for what good drum tone is on the material you are working on, you won't fail.


 2. How good are you at compression? This is so important, I can't even begin to tell you. Compression isn't just used to control the level on drums. It's literally used to sculpt the sound of the drums. I could give you a basic snare drum sound that would change into a rock animal by just using compression and an eq. The compressor in this example, would be used to bring out more crack and a bit more ring/resonance. Or, if you have a drum that may ring a bit too much, you can control this with release time as well as working your threshold and attack time. You can ADD more resonance using them as well. So just with a compressor alone, you can make a dull, boring snare turn into a force to reckon with.

Danny, Thank you for the detailed response! WOW! incredibly helpful. 

The drum mics I am using are - Cad Pro 7  http://www.guitarcenter.com/CAD-PRO-7-7-Piece-Drum-Microphone-Pack-102796992-i1126745.gc?source=4WWRWXGP&kpid=102796992  

That's all that's in my budget for right now.  I have been using a Sure57 on high hat. I am thinking of buying a Shure 52A for kick 

One Problem I am having is Bleed. But I am suppose that's because I am use to Superior Drummer and mixing without bleed. 


The BIGGER problem is the sound of the toms. It's "dead" Kinda like Ringo's Toms with a tea Towel over them. You're right in your old school assessment of Birch. There is not much sustain in the toms.   It is a used kit and I haven't changed the heads on them. I did tune them but they still sound dead. They have Evans clear heads on them. (Paid $750 for them with cymbals and hardware) http://i154.photobucket.c...056/DrumsCroppedII.jpg

The snare and the Kick are good and I could live with the cheap Sabian B8 Cymbals I have for right now. 

Maybe new Clear evens heads will make a difference or a different tuning. 

Its just starting to get warm here in Chicago so In a week or so I will set them up again in the garage and try again. There is a CD I am working on and I am having a "real" drummer play on "real" drums. So I'll probably start experimenting soon again. You gave me a lot of good tips. The drummer I am using has a DP kit by the way, Maybe we will just use his set to record. 

The second part of your question about how well I know compression. I think I am fair at it but most likely miles behind where your knowledge is on using it and when to use it. how "x" settings will  give you "y" results. I am always learning. 

By the way... for whatever its worth - I have always though the drum sound on Paul Simon's "50 Ways To Leave Your Lover " was the perfect drum sound match for what the song was calling for. 

If I can be as good as matching drum tones to songs as well as that one does.. I'd be happy. 

Thanks Danny .. your input is invaluable!

Paul   

tight 

tfbattag



Fun thread. Thanks for starting it!

Welcome. People tell me I am a pretty fun guy. That's probably why I start fun threads. ;)