Helpful ReplyThoughts on how to use Bandlab

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Chandler
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2018/04/12 04:30:13 (permalink)

Thoughts on how to use Bandlab

When I first heard of Bandlab I wasn’t particularly interested in it. Online music collaboration isn’t something I really need, but the more I started exploring Bandlab the more potential I saw.

Would anyone else be interested in a song feedback group where people could post WIP a get feedback from others on their mixing, playing, etc. I think this could be something that Bandlab could do better than other music platforms.

I don’t know if it’s possible yet, but embedding should be a priority, so songs can be posted on various forums, sites, etc. Soundcloud is what most people use now, but IMO its pretty terrible. If Bandb can make it so it can be embedded is most message boards, I think a lot of people will switch from soundcloud.

Lastly I think various contests could be held using Bandlab. Guitar solo contests, mixing contests, mastering contests, etc.

I feel there is a lot of potential, but perhaps it hasn’t been realized yet. Thoughts?

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    noynekker
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    Re: Thoughts on how to use Bandlab 2018/04/12 04:56:03 (permalink)
    Perhaps what you're suggesting is just an extension to the existing Cakewalk forum ?
    I like you're idea of "contests", but not sure the old guard here will embrace it much.
    If there is a new clientele coming for "Cakewalk by BandLab" in the near future it could work.
    If BandLab wants to compete with the likes of SoundCloud, SoundClick etc  . . . they have a lot of work to do . . . but so far I see the potential is there if they do things right.

    Cakewalk by Bandlab, Cubase, RME Babyface Pro, Intel i7 3770K @3.5Ghz, Asus P8Z77-VPro/Thunderbolt, 32GB DDR3 RAM, GeForce GTX 660 Ti, 250 GB OS SSD, 2TB HDD samples, Win 10 Pro 64 bit, backed up by Macrium Reflect, Novation Impulse 61 Midi Key Controller, Tannoy Active Near Field Monitors, Guitars by Vantage, Gibson, Yamaki and Ovation.

     
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    Toddskins
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    Re: Thoughts on how to use Bandlab 2018/04/12 06:25:00 (permalink)
    There is a lot of potential for BandLab, and it might all get worked out in the seasons ahead.  Embed code is a good idea, the same way Youtube supplies embed code to post videos.
     
    There is a lot of potential for sadness and frustration, too, that song writers need to iron out.  Posting your creation to the web is like "kiss it goodbye" if all the protections are not in place.  Collaborating on an original idea is even far more dangerous, because now it will be unclear as to who really did what, if the partnerships breakdown.  Just be careful.  Cannot be emphasized enough.
     
    If they are able to get Sonar integrated into their web collaboration successfully (not easy to do!), that would be a huge stride forward.  

    When Cakewalk developed their DAW it was and is, in fact, a program for a computer.  Creating a web application is not the same thing.  Yeah doable, but not easy.
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    Meng
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    Re: Thoughts on how to use Bandlab 2018/04/12 12:51:21 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby AntManB 2018/04/12 13:00:21
    We're putting together some better tutorials as BandLab has a lot of hidden complexity but let me address a couple of things here - there are some core misunderstandings. 


    1) We already have embed - it's via the "Share" button on a post - it's only available for published posts right now, as it would not make sense to embed private revisions that no-one else can access!
     

     
    2) Projects that are on the "interweb" - more on collaboration in the next post, but it's important to understand how projects work on BandLab. Projects/Songs are made up of different revisions - e.g you don't "publish" a project, you publish a revision/mix from a Project. There are three different states of revisions in BandLab that are your choice:
    • Private - the track is not visible by anybody, except those who have access to the project. If you don't collaborate with anyone, it's just you. If you have Collaborators, or are in a Band, then they can see private revisions.

    • Public - if you publish a revision, but do not make it forkable - it's equivalent to uploading to a gallery or any audio-hosting site. People can listen, like, comment, add to Collections (our version of Playlists), share, embed but they can't access the multi-track files or anything more.

    • Public + Forkable - if you publish a revision and make it forkable - you're someone who embraces the world of open source and want to inspire others, or to see what people can create with your music. You're accepting the fact that others can commercialize the results of forking the track and giving them license to do so - but it's your choice - if you're not into it, then don't make it forkable. The creator of the original revision is attributed on any subsequent track that is published on BandLab and it's always possible to "trace something back to the start" because of our version control tools.

    Many of our professional musicians will not publish revisions or forkable revisions as they commercialize their own music, but use BandLab for the mix editor, idea capture, cross-platform workflow tools. Most of our younger beat producers who don't see publishing or album sales as a way to create a career as a musician give away free beats that are forkable, because the engagement from artists eventually turn into paying customers who buy or lease premium beats from them.
     
    Open source is not for everyone, but please don't misunderstand that BandLab is only used that way. How one shares music varies between genres and demographics.
     
    3) Collaborating on BandLab - as mentioned above, the majority of our users make music solo and keep it private, only publishing their best revisions in a project. However, collaborating on BandLab is one of our best workflows, and there are three ways to make music socially on BandLab just like in real life: 
    • Via a Band - think Mick Jagger joining the Rolling Stones - by joining/creating a band, you decide to have a long term commitment with other Band members and as such you get some extra functions. There are Admin/Member permissions, and you get your own Band profile page, real-time group chat, notifications when your Band members start new projects, etc.
    • Inviting Collaborators to a Project - think BB King x U2 on When Love Comes to Town - inviting collaborators is like having a guest star join in - you don't want the commitment of being in a group/Band together and is limited to that project only. You can invite other users to your solo projects or band projects. They don't automatically get to join in on your other projects unless you continue to invite them as a collaborator.
    • Making your tracks Forkable - think Adele covering Make You Feel My Love - in our minds, this is still collaboration, even if you aren't actively working on the project together as you have inspired someone else with your song-writing and they have applied their own spin on it.
    I get the question a lot about whether online collaboration is dangerous - the following comment from the post above is one of the most common and more frustrating misunderstandings about BandLab when someone hears that there is "online collaboration":

    Collaborating on an original idea is even far more dangerous, because now it will be unclear as to who really did what, if the partnerships breakdown.
     
    I 100% agree that any collaboration and any partnership is dangerous if things breakdown (bands, joint-ventures, marriages), but this is true for offline song collaborations too - if you walk into a room and walk out with a song, how do you know or prove who really did what?
     
    BandLab was built exactly to address some of these issues - the beauty of our version control system is that because it's tracked in the cloud and each revision backed-up like GitHub (in a non-destructive manner) - you actually have a very clear picture of who really did what AND when, far clearer than an offline method.



    Creation is non-destructive because you can always go back a couple of versions and take a different creative direction (see the branches) - as opposed to static file structures where you continually save over each other's work in a linear manner.
     
    So in a situation where there was a dispute as to what one party actually contributed, it's possible to go into the Tree View/Revision History and actually pull it up.
     
    -----
     
    I know this is a super long post, but I hope it's helpful! There's far more to BandLab than meets the eye and I'm happy to answer more questions as necessary when I spot them :-) I'm showing pictures of the web client right now, but do remember that one of the most exciting things for users is the fact that they can start a multi-track project on their phone, open it straight up on their desktop via their browser or BandLab Assistant instead of worrying about file transfers and compatibility issues - more on this another time.

    Inspiration is everywhere, you just need to get rid of the barriers in the way of capturing it :-) that's what we're here for!
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    35mm
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    Re: Thoughts on how to use Bandlab 2018/04/12 15:24:44 (permalink)
    Meng, your post has kind of opened my eyes to what Bandlab is about - a Github style repository for music. That's a helpful way of describing it to someone like me who has worked in software development. The problem is that most people don't know what Github is or what version control is or what forking means. I think some explainer videos would be a good idea - one on the home/landing page and on the main user pages. People rarely want to click a help link and read complicated descriptions and instructions. An easily accessible, concise but engaging video would probably work wonders.
     
    I joined Bandlab months before the news broke of Bandlab taking over Cakewalk. My first impressions where that it looked interesting, but there was not enough quick and concise info to tell me what it was all about, how I could use it and why I should use it. As a result, I kind of thought I knew what it was about because my imagination filled in the spaces where instant information was lacking and as a result, my impressions were wrong or misguided. I guess the magic bullet would be having a simple way of describing something complex. Some short, well-placed videos would probably work.

    Splat, Win 10 64bit and all sorts of musical odds and sods collected over the years, but still missing a lot of my old analogue stuff I sold off years ago.
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    Meng
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    Re: Thoughts on how to use Bandlab 2018/04/12 15:53:39 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby 35mm 2018/04/12 17:56:42
    @35mm - definitely that's one way of looking at the creation workflow side of things, and that is just scratching the surface! Glad it was helpful to you. 

    A series of explainer videos are in production :-) it's hard to cram it into a one size fits all video. We have a 3 part video alone on one of our newer features within the Mix Editor on Mobile (the Looper):
     
    https://blog.bandlab.com/making-beats-a-simple-guide-part-1-looper-introduction/
     
    https://blog.bandlab.com/make-music-instantly-a-simple-guide-part-2-sound-packs-and-recording/
     
    https://blog.bandlab.com/make-music-instantly-a-simple-guide-part-3-editing-effects/
     
    We'll have a proper tutorial repository in the future. 
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    Chandler
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    Re: Thoughts on how to use Bandlab 2018/04/13 05:07:54 (permalink)
    Meng - Thank you for the explanation and replying. I didn’t know embedding was possible, I’ll have to check and see if it works on the forums I use. Speaking of that, will there be a new Cakewalk forum in the future?

    Would it be possible to add an unlisted state to the private/public options? I’d like to make a community where people can give feedback to others on their music, but I doubt people want 7 bad versions of all their songs appearing on their profile. An unlisted option would allow people to listen to the file if they know where its shared, but for people just finding the page it won’t be visable. They’ll only see the finished product.

    My soundcloud page Chandlerhimself
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    tecknot
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    Re: Thoughts on how to use Bandlab 2018/04/13 05:25:12 (permalink)
    Hey, Meng.  I totally got your vision with BandLab right away (not to be a brown noser) and how it works, but the whole sharing "private" info with BL and its partners, etc. troubles me a bit.  I don't see any options to "opt out" of what I share and what I want to stay private other than not signing-up or use BL at all.  That is, there doesn't seem to be any controls for users regarding their information.  I totally understand the licensing for the purpose of uploading music on BL.  I just don't like all that ancillary data collected in order to "make the user experience better", like targeted advertising, sharing with other companies the user it not aware of, etc.  But the whole "music community" idea and its complexity is awesome.
     
    Kind regards,
     
    tecknot
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    Meng
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    Re: Thoughts on how to use Bandlab 2018/04/13 06:22:51 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby iRelevant 2018/04/13 09:07:19
    Chandler - we do have a "Share private link" to let people listen to private revisions at this point in time - but having an "Unlisted" or "Hide from profile" feature is in the works.
     

     

     
    Tecknot - we're always iterating on improving our privacy controls and giving more choice to our consumer, but I'm not sure what ancillary "private" data you're implying that we are collecting that is different to any other service that you use.
     
    In fact, we've intentionally made our T&Cs as layman-friendly as possible and we've explicitly made clear in our privacy policy that we do not rent or sell any user personal data to 3rd Party companies. Please feel free to ask if you need clarification on anything!

    There's no obligation (unlike other services like Facebook) to use your real name either in signing up for an account - so how much you choose to share with the service is entirely up to you.  Some friends of mine who are international artists use a separate email address for BandLab, use it privately only and don't put up profile photos or anything that could identify them!
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    Frank Harvey
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    Re: Thoughts on how to use Bandlab 2018/04/13 09:02:04 (permalink)
    meng
    We're putting together some better tutorials as BandLab has a lot of hidden complexity but let me address a couple of things here - there are some core misunderstandings. 


    1) We already h...............................................................
    ..................................
     
    3) Collaborating on BandLab - as mentioned above, the majority of our users make music solo and keep it private, only publishing their best revisions in a project. However, collaborating on BandLab is one of our best workflows, and there are three ways to make music socially on BandLab just like in real life: 
    • Via a Band - think Mick...............................................................................
     
    • Inviting Collaborators to a Project - think BB King x U2 on When Love Comes to Town - inviting collaborators is like having a guest star join in - you don't want the commitment of being in a group/Band together and is limited to that project only. You can invite other users to your solo projects or band projects. They don't automatically get to join in on your other projects unless you continue to invite them as a collaborator.
     
     
    .........................................................lity issues - more on this another time.

    Inspiration is everywhere, you just need to get rid of the barriers in the way of capturing it :-) that's what we're here for!


    Thankyou Meng for the frank and insightful explanation.
     
     
    OK then.....................
    Meng,
    Down Here in Australia ,
    I have in recent years, on occasion, engaged amazingly skilled amateur / professional musicians from around the globe to provide instrumental input on various projects. I have paid them according to the obviously 'meagre' rates provided (BUT...With my Tip) on the web site they were associated with. On the whole, I have been staggered by the musical skills afforded and the brilliant works supplied.
    Given that many of these incredibly talented artists on our planet ...........Vocalists, Saxophonists, Keyboardists,Guitar Soloists, Synthesizists...( IS THAT A WORD?),  Bagpipers  ( YES guys!!!.....Remember AC/DC ) ........BAGPIPES !!!
    Is it possible that our newly found BANDLAB site may someday provide an Industry Recognized , regulated & FAIR PAYING ( ie: As Against the Web Vultures) , means for engagement of fellow music producers / Artists to cross pollinate and mutually assist in musical trade skills.
    A simple, forthright 'payment for assistance' system would be so beautiful for us creative beings :)
    Cheers...........Frank in OZ
     

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    Chandler
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    Re: Thoughts on how to use Bandlab 2018/04/15 02:19:37 (permalink)
    Frank Harvey
    Thankyou Meng for the frank and insightful explanation.
     
     
    OK then.....................
    Meng,
    Down Here in Australia ,
    I have in recent years, on occasion, engaged amazingly skilled amateur / professional musicians from around the globe to provide instrumental input on various projects. I have paid them according to the obviously 'meagre' rates provided (BUT...With my Tip) on the web site they were associated with. On the whole, I have been staggered by the musical skills afforded and the brilliant works supplied.
    Given that many of these incredibly talented artists on our planet ...........Vocalists, Saxophonists, Keyboardists,Guitar Soloists, Synthesizists...( IS THAT A WORD?),  Bagpipers  ( YES guys!!!.....Remember AC/DC ) ........BAGPIPES !!!
    Is it possible that our newly found BANDLAB site may someday provide an Industry Recognized , regulated & FAIR PAYING ( ie: As Against the Web Vultures) , means for engagement of fellow music producers / Artists to cross pollinate and mutually assist in musical trade skills.
    A simple, forthright 'payment for assistance' system would be so beautiful for us creative beings :)
    Cheers...........Frank in OZ
     



    I agree that is another area Bandlab could tap into. I believe there is already a payment system in place though. They have a tip jar system. I tried setting it up the other day, but nobody has tipped me yet, so I don't know how it works. If everything is working correctly you should be able to pay people quickly and easily thought. In the future I can see people paying others for quick instrument parts or mixing/mastering.

    My soundcloud page Chandlerhimself
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    tecknot
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    Re: Thoughts on how to use Bandlab 2018/04/15 02:20:22 (permalink)
    meng
    Tecknot - we're always iterating on improving our privacy controls and giving more choice to our consumer, but I'm not sure what ancillary "private" data you're implying that we are collecting that is different to any other service that you use.
     
    In fact, we've intentionally made our T&Cs as layman-friendly as possible and we've explicitly made clear in our privacy policy that we do not rent or sell any user personal data to 3rd Party companies. Please feel free to ask if you need clarification on anything!

    There's no obligation (unlike other services like Facebook) to use your real name either in signing up for an account - so how much you choose to share with the service is entirely up to you.  Some friends of mine who are international artists use a separate email address for BandLab, use it privately only and don't put up profile photos or anything that could identify them!




    Just to circle back, Meng, the following are examples of what I was referring to in your Privacy Policy (to the extent we are made aware of).  In particular, merely using the Service implies our consent to use any data collected by BL without any option to opt out of sharing any particular information we may provide ourselves or that which is collected.  We only have the option (so it seems) to concede and have access to the Service or no consent and no access what so ever.  And to continue to use CbB with improvements we are compromised in order to download CbB.  (Further, I do not use other social platforms such as Facebook, Pinterst, etc.)
     
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    2.6.1. We use third-party analytics tools to help us measure traffic and usage trends for the Services. These tools collect information sent by your device including the web pages you visit, add-ons, and other information that assists us in improving the Services. We collect and use this analytics information with analytics information from other Users so that it cannot reasonably be used to identify any particular individual User.
     
    2.8.2. When you use the Services, our servers automatically record certain log file information, including your web request, Internet Protocol (“IP”) address, browser type, referring / exit pages and URLs, number of clicks and how you interact with links on the Services, domain names, landing pages, pages viewed, and other such information. We may also collect similar information from emails sent to our Users which then helps us track which emails are opened and which links are clicked by recipients. The information allows for more accurate reporting and improvement of the Services.
     
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    3.2.  For clarity, you’re granting us permission to use your Information for the above-mentioned purposes (through your use of the Services) not only allows us to provide the Services as they exist today, but also to provide you with new capabilities as we develop the Services in the future.
    3.3. Apart from these purposes, we may also notify you of other purposes for which we collect, use or disclose your Information and seek your consent to such purposes (for example, through other parts of this Privacy Policy). We only collect and use Information for purposes for which you have consented. If we need to use your Information for any purpose to which you have not previously consented, we will seek your consent prior to using your Information for the new purpose.
     
    b) “Service Providers”: These are our agents or third party contractors of. We engage them to assist us in providing and managing aspects of the Services, such as developing the Services’ features and functionality, marketing, processing payments, processing data or statistics, hosting Content, providing server space, reviewing Content for compliance with our Terms of Use, and legal advice.
     
    Please note that I do not suspect BL has any ill intent beyond what has been disclosed in your ToU and PP.  It's the third party part that concerns me more and anything that has not been disclosed such as those agreements between BL and third parties.
     
    Kind regards,
     
    tecknot
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    msmcleod
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    Re: Thoughts on how to use Bandlab 2018/04/15 12:15:04 (permalink)
    I'd really like to get into collaboration in BandLab, however I'm finding it difficult to find out where to start.
     
    The tutorials seem to cover two areas:
    (i) The technical aspects of using the website/software
    (ii) Tips on how to work with collaborators ONCE you've found them.
     
    What it doesn't seem to cover is how to find suitable collaborators in a practical way.
     
    For example, I'd like to start collaboration on some progressive rock, or some jazz fusion projects.
    How do I find other musicians that I may want to collaborate with?
     
    The nearest genre for prog-rock is "Rock", but that covers a huge range. Death metal, country rock and prog rock sound nothing like each other.
     
    The nearest genre for jazz fusion is "Jazz", but again it's a huge range. Trad jazz, big-band and jazz fusion are all very different.
     
    There's 1,000,000's of users on BandLab, so going through each person's profile under a generic genre and listening to their projects is not practical.
     
    Even if I make my projects public:
    (a) I get rappers wanting to do rap versions of my stuff, which I don't want
    (b) How would they find me anyway amongst the 1,000,000's of other users?
     
    What I'd really like to see is:
    1. More choice in sub-genres, so I can search/be searched for in a more specific way
    2. A better way of specifying what I'm looking for, whether it be a guitarist, lyricist or whatever
    3. A way to advertise what I'm looking for, or search for people advertising for band members.
     
    In other words have something reminiscent of the "old days", when if you wanted someone to collaborate with or join/start a band, the only sensible way was to use the classifieds in NME or Melody Maker.
     
    This is the method I suspect most musicians are familiar with, and it would be nice to see something similar on BandLab.
     
    M.
     
    #13
    Chandler
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    Re: Thoughts on how to use Bandlab 2018/04/17 01:08:39 (permalink)
    Msmcleod - I think communities would work for this. Unfortunately I don’t think there are many available right now, but hopefully someone will make them. If you make a jazz fusion community I’ll join it. I agree that a wanted section would be useful though. I’m not super interested in collaborating with people, but every once and a while it might be fun. However I don’t want to go through a long tedious search. If I could just search for projects that needed guitar and by genre I might do it every so often. I think that’s a good feature to add.

    Overall Bandlab has alot of potential, but I don’t think anyone really knows how to use it yet.

    My soundcloud page Chandlerhimself
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    #14
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